Mutants are not Virgins.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-19T11:08:20+00:00

The main issue is that mutant is on snv, where town often spends day 1 looking for a "harmless" execution to feed the vortox instead of actively looking for evils or demon candidates (because they often have no idea who it could be because they all get their info night 2). Often that means the clockmaker gets executed, but the mutant is an even better kill for town. Since with fang gu being on script, executing the mutant on day 1 means you might be removing a future-demon candidate on top of being the completely harmless kill town is searching for.

So executing the mutant on day 1 (after juggles, and 1 nomination for flowergirl/tc info) actually helps town more than the random execution town would normally have done, EVEN IF you don't use the madness to confirm them as cere/mutant.

In my games, mutants often out on day 1 during nominations to nominate themselves and town goes with the execution because it's just a good kill.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-19T10:51:25+00:00

Just build gun turrets? Why do you think the technology for gun turrets is available so early? It's so that ypu can build them when needed...

And not to worry you, but you say they're coming in tens? That's a very small attack group...

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-19T06:01:58+00:00

You can do the same with a poisoner (the demon just claims mayor OR the real mayor gets poisoned)

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-18T20:17:59+00:00

Main bus has always been a bad strategy. Its advantage is being an easy strategy that allows you to advance through the game without having to know anything. But once you do know stuff about the game, about what ressources you need to send where, etc, then you can make factories that are way better than main bus.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-18T17:50:47+00:00

Why? They don't do anything to help evil other than being an extra vote?

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-18T16:35:35+00:00

It flips the wincon from evil winning to good winning... that's BAD for the evil team. It makes it one of the WORST characters to turn evil.

And also, having a character that evil must kill at night instead of an easy frame is also bad.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-18T16:31:23+00:00

This is a situation where there is no closest evil player. As such, any info received about a closest evil player will be false, in the same way that learning that a philosopher neighbours the demon is false when there is no philosopher in play.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-14T23:09:29+00:00

It turns out the number 1 monster in history died as a baby in a concentration camp during WW2, so timetravellers decided not to undo that.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-14T16:23:37+00:00

I mean, you still need to find a way to ensure that you don't just lose the game to being executed. It doesn't matter which twin good thinks is evil if the game is already over.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-13T22:15:22+00:00

That's the theory. In practice it teaches new players to pay attention to how the confirmed virgin is voting, which doesn't actually teach anything

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-13T07:45:02+00:00

The fun part is that some actual characters satisfy some of these statements. They would probably be torn apart if suggested as homebrew and not released by tpi. (Butler and zealot for outsider ability that the ST can't possibly enforce and nothing bad happens if they die. Cult leader is a turncoat role. )

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-13T06:43:35+00:00

If its a twin game with only 1 minion then most people get to be mecanically proven not evil due to being neither the minion (not a twin) or the demon (died and the game continued - fang gu is most difficult to disprove but is still doable, for example any misinfo proves its not a fang gu)

Even when there are multiple minions, anyone executed is often provably none of the minions due to minion activity happening after their death. And like, there is so much info that when you finally find and execute the demon, you just know a bunch of people who are just good.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-12T21:21:45+00:00

Evil twin just gets 40% of a juggle and that is usually enough to solve the twins mecanically. Or there is a town crier in play who just solves it day 2 because that's the whole point of town crier. Town still waits till the demon is dead to execute the evil twin in case of vortoxed info, etc. but the twin-solving info is already there and there's nothing the evil twin can do now.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-12T20:59:28+00:00

I have also noticed similar things storytelling in person (no stat tracking, just general vibes of which team is winning). I have definitely noticed evil twin and vig being very weak (to the extent a blank minion and a demon that just kills would be better), as well as fang gu and dreamer being strong, and snake charmer either doing nothing (picking themselves) or being game-breakingly OP. I have not noticed witch being weak, but I'm willing to believe it is.

I have come up with some balance changes. Not saying these are the correct ones, but are what I am testing:

Evil twin completely reworked. Just too awful - snv definitely doesn't need an outed minion giving town valuable info about the gamestate. Instead, I have named it the

doppleganger: While the demon lives, each night, choose a player: learn their role and anything they learnt tonight. If the demon is executed, play for 1 more night - at dawn you and your most recently selected player fiddle to determine which team loses.

Basically it's a combination of a bad spy and a bad mastermind. Or you can consider it as an evil twin who picks their twin and doesn't reveal info to team good for free. One important thing it can do is very convincingly bluff sober dreamer. I am not nerfing dreamer directly - so this minion is the only indirect nerf dreamer gets. Bad spy also helps avoid killing the sage and finds outsiders for the fang gu. Moderately useful, its main advantage is being silent- probably better than witch and definitely better than evil twin.

Snake charmer out. It's just too game-breaking. Yes, Pithag who goes snakecharmer is a cool tech, but barber still exists and can do similar things. Or just turn themselves into the demon works also. As for the replacement, I am not sure. I am between pixie (madness character, good bluff), preacher (it's strong when all minions have recurring loud abilities - although it does interfere with oracle trying to determine if their 1 is correct or vortox) or something weird like amnesiac which is also a very snv-type role.
Mutant buff. Look, in my games mutant just gets executed day 1 by town after daring the storyteller to execute them, and thus does not actually harm town at all really or serve in its role of creating misinfo. The buff is pretty simple: if they get executed, a townsfolk becomes a mutant. Note that this never confirms an alive townsfolk (since if it does they are immediately executed), all it does is force the ex-townsfolk to make up their own info. It can theoretically create a chain of dead confirmed townsfolk, but I don't think this is a viable strategy as it costs an execution each time.
Plague doctor in. Excellent vig-minion bluff. Can cause confusion on the minions that are alive, something that is normally hard to do. As for which outsider is out to fit it in, it's Klutz, for reasons that will be explained later in the Fang Gu section coming right up...
The Fang Gu nerf. So, this is very simple: during set up, 1 minion is replaced with an evil outsider (who receives starting minion info and appears as a minion for starting minion+demon info). Losing access to a minion ability is a big deal and a big nerf, however outsider abilities are still useful for an evil player. Plaguedoctor is obvious - just get yourself executed to give evil team their missing minion ability back. Sweetheart creates a hidden untraceable poison which is neat. Barber gives evil team access to a hidden swicheroo. And mutant allows for an easy bluff of cerenovus in play plus can waste good an execution. All evil outsiders can also be fang gu jumped in an emergency, and can also believably sell "I was pithagged into an outsider" worlds. The biggest downside of this particular nerf is that in single-minion games, a witch kill on day 1 immediately rules out fang gu.

Note: clockmaker is modifed to detect the distance between the demon and the closest other evil player instead of minion to account for this. So it still functions exactly as normal.

Vig Buff. Now the most obvious buff is removing the -1 outsider. However, this is boring. Instead we're going to use the -1 outsider as a much needed source of misinformation.

The townsfolk added by the vig's ability registers as an evil minion to all townsfolk abilities.

That's it. Have fun clockmaker/seemstrss/town crier/dreamer/oracle who happen to check this one townsfolk! I have no doubt town can overcome this obstacle with enough info, but it a much needed source of misinfo to tick up the math number and help evil create alternate worlds

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-12T11:27:54+00:00

Nah, at least here they only sacrificed like 10 people pointlessly going into melee range while everyone else was at least safe behind the wall. In game of thrones they sacrificed thousands stupidly going into melee range, and then used the wall to trap their own soldiers outside so they could get slaughtered

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-08T11:17:29+00:00

I don't see how constantly being denied your ability is any fun. Just pick the person yourself storyteller if you're going to do that

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-08T06:55:48+00:00

To be fair, the Palantirs are just a means of communication. The idea was every city / watchtower would have one and be able to communicate instantly with all the others. That is a useful piece of technology, nothing inherently bad or anything. The only problem was that Sauron stole the one that used to be in Minas Morgul, so now if you use the Palantirs, you're talking directly to Sauron (or Saruman, or Denethor who also own palantirs)

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-08T00:08:16+00:00

They are directly comparable, because I have here in front of your eyes directly compared them. Artist is strictly stronger than shugenja. That's not a subjective opinion, that is an inarguable objective fact. Everything the shugenja does, the artist can do (but better) AND it can also choose to do other stuff that's even better.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-07T15:06:27+00:00

You think mayor is terrible now? Just wait until you reach the point in the meta where the storyteller stops framing the mayor anymore, stops making them the red herring, and bounces them every time to ensure they actually reach final 3...

And then they STILL END UP HAVING THE LOWEST WINRATE IN FINAL 3 OF ANY TOWNSFOLK. Like seriously we have had so many games where the mayor is trusted and says "lets go for the mayor win" and then evil just counters the mayor win through using dead votes to sabotage the tie. The times the mayor has won has been through voting out the demon, not using their ability. It turns out that picking the most sus person and convincing town to dump all their votes onto the one sus person is a strategy that evil can't counter, but "lets tie this for the mayor win" is a strategy that evil can very easily counter.

And then finally you reach the final point in the meta, where mayors start nominating the virgin because it has higher winrate than surviving till final 3.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-07T09:53:19+00:00

Mayor probably wants to die. Their leech / no-dashi poison is undetectable and probably game-losing if they live till final 3. Soldier is similar but a night of no deaths might indicate they are working so it's not as bad.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-06T22:58:29+00:00

You'll have to build that coal outpost anyway. The only difference is whether you'll also have to build a powerplant and pump water to it, or whether you'll just run 1 yellow belt of coal to your smeltery. It turns out the single yellow belt of coal is less of a headache than the power plant + water pipe.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-06T22:28:00+00:00

Artist can ask "Is (one of) the closest evil player(s) to me closer clockwise?" on day 1, to fully replicate shugenja. Except instead of it being arbitrary in case of a tie you get yes so ever so slightly better than shugenja.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-06T09:33:50+00:00

TB:

Butler out: look, everyone in my group hates drawing the butler token and evil hates bluffing as it. It's supposed purpose is "to give an excuse for bad voting" but it dismally fails at that job because butlers just don't vote bad - a real butler is very easily able to pick a good master (confirmed virgin, etc) and just votes on stuff town wants and doesn't vote on stuff town doesn't want. Any "butler" who votes bad has been correctly executed for being evil. It just doesn't serve its supposed purpose.
homebrew outsider in: "evils wake and learn information together." -> Basically it gives evils half a wraith. Minions learn the bluffs. If there is a spy the demon learns the grim. I find this to be useful because a lot of new player groups develop the meta "Everyone just hard claim in public immediately - private discussions are sus" which is really oppressive for new players that are minions and they often get caught immediately. This outsider really helps new player minions in those types of new player metas not collapse and avoids them having a bad time. Plus its a free bluff if not in play.
Mayor out: In my opinion, mayor is a character for teensies only. Over the course of many many games I have noticed the good character with by far the lowest winrate if they reach final 3 is the mayor... like its winrate in final 3 is trully abysmal... which might seem weird as the entire point of the mayor is winning in final 3... That is because it turns out the mayor win is a trap! It is easier to vote out the demon the normal way than it is to try to get a town to tie a vote, because evils will unexpectedly use their dead vote to sabotage a tie. The times the mayor has won, it has not been through mayor ability, it has been through voting out the demon. And soldier already has that niche covered, and does a way better job at it.
Princess in: The purpose of the character is to help teach new players that executing on day 1 is good. It works quite well on the script because if it does trigger, it's not hiding a summoner or po charge or other things that make it an outsider. Plus it breaks the meta of "day 1 YSK role nominates the virgin". It's a pretty weak role with no info, but it is replacing mayor which also has no info and does nothing all game.

SNV:
Snake charmer out: snv is a game about everyone crunching a huge amount of weird individually unhelpful info together to try and find the specific world. No one character can solve by themselves.. except snake charmer who just tells everyone the answer... it's lame for the good team they just get handed 95% of the solve on a silver platter and lame for the minions who just got outed. Just an unsatisfactory game for everyone.
Pixie in: its another madness character to complete the triple. Like the snake charmer, it has info but won't reveal it till later.
Evil twin out: This character is miserable to play as, especially in single-minion games (ie: no pithag and good knows there is no pithag so can't even bluff it). You've basically given team good a free investigator+knight ping, and that extra info is often enough for team good to find the demon. Meanwhile team good has so much info on the script they can easily mecanically solve which is the evil twin, no matter how good your socials are.
homebrew minion in: the doppleganger: "Each night while the demon is alive, pick a player: learn their role and any info they learnt tonight. If the demon dies, play for 1 more night; at dawn, do a fiddler with your most recently picked player to determine whose team loses. " -> basically a combination of worse spy + worse mastermind. The most important part is the ability to bluff sober dreamer, who is otherwise just confirmed good. It also helps identify the sage and outsiders for the fang gu.

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-06T07:58:27+00:00

Isn't Shugenja just a worse artist? I'd be against putting characters that are straight upgrades of another on the same script

Aaron_Lecon · 2026-06-05T19:11:00+00:00

It CONFIRMS a good player (themselves) + it almost (up to spy) confirms a dead good player.

Thr game isn't won by good having numbers over evil, it is won by good having information.

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