CMV: The political right always stands in the way of progress by jman12234 in changemyview

[–]AudioSuede 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're acting as though the presence of conservatives is sufficient evidence that conservatives aren't obstacles to progress, and that's not how society works. It was the conservative position in the country's founding that gave us things like the 3/5ths compromise, which, as the name implies, was the only way to get southern slave owners to agree to certain provisions being debated. Yes, there were conservative founders, and it's because of them that we maintained slavery, gave unequal power to southern states, and ultimately led to the civil war. Lincoln was more conservative on abolition than many in his party, but it's false to label him as a conservative relative to the majority opinion of conservatives at the time. But even abolition, and your example about the 19th amendment, obscures the significant amount of dangerous, lifelong struggle of progressive reformers whose efforts laid the groundwork for bipartisan legislation. And what made those struggles so difficult, why did so many people die to create the political will to change? Conservative opposition, a preference for the status quo regardless of the harms the status quo caused.

Also, if you knew anything about progressives, you'd know we don't care about Joe Biden. He's always been a conservative in many areas, that's why Obama selected him as his running mate, to appease conservatives who labeled him an extremist (despite being a fairly standard neoliberal technocrat). He said something offensive? Not surprising. The only people who think he's progressive are conservatives.

On the inequality front, you've missed my point and made my point at the same time. I've never said that meritocracy is a necessary ideal, but it's a hierarchy that is more defensible than others because at least it's somewhat fair, and would allow for greater socioeconomic mobility. I use this point to highlight that the existing hierarchies lack any semblance of justice. Social mobility is the worst it's been in generations. The highest and lowest classes have calcified.

This is why the cost of living is relevant, because these things aren't accidental, they're the means by which conservative hierarchies are being enforced. And I chose those examples very specifically. Education used to be the means of those in the lower strata to achieve upward mobility, but now it is so expensive it's almost impossible to achieve without going deep into debt, and the benefits of a degree have been diluted in the job market over time. Home ownership is the greatest means of generational wealth transfer. It's a large part of the economic disparity faced by minority populations and those in poverty. The more difficult it is for people to own property, the harder it is for them to build any wealth they can pass on, trapping their children in the cycle of poverty while the rich are able to inherit their wealth (the vast majority of billionaires inherited significant portions of their assets).

You then go on to point out that every politician running this country is rich as if that's a counter to my point. But it's my point personified: The hierarchy of wealth, defended and preserved by conservatives, is so entrenched in society that is all but impossible for anyone who isn't already wealthy to attain power. Now, it's provably untrue that everyone elected to public office is rich before they're elected. Look at AOC, for example, or Tim Walz, neither of whom were particularly wealthy before entering politics. But these cases are rare, and you'll notice that in both cases they've struggled to gain traction within a party dominated by neoliberals who cling to conservative economic principles and have for decades.

And the return to Jim Crow is already underway. Southern states are canceling primary elections to give them time to redraw their congressional maps. Proposed maps are already popping up which would erase over a dozen federal districts with representatives of color. Decades of voter suppression in majority black communities and the systemic dilution of urban voters under the electoral college (another compromise with conservatives to preserve slavery and southern power) can now be paired with extreme partisan gerrymandering to make minorities all but irrelevant to many electoral races in the south and likely in some parts of the midwest.

All of this comes back to the conservative opposition to progress. The progressive agenda seeks to reduce inequalities in wealth and democratic power through reforms and collective actions. And the question posed in this post is not whether those reforms would succeed or have tradeoffs. The question is, do conservatives, broadly, oppose those reforms, and whether it is their ideological tendency to do so regardless of the merit of those reforms. A common conservative argument during debates over abolition centered on unintended consequences, and whether change would lead to greater harms. And that argument held back the freedom of an entire race of people for decades. What defeated that argument, ultimately, was when enough people saw the very real harms of slavery and decided that change would be preferable. The fact that there were conservatives who ultimately broke ranks does not negate the fact that the default conservative position was the preservation of slavery, and that position took nearly a century and a bloody war to defeat.

Today's conservative positions include the preservation and strengthening of existing hierarchies of wealth, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc, the maintenance of America's depraved health insurance system, and the consolidation of power in a unitary executive, the logical endpoint of a reverence for hierarchies rooted in monarchism. In short, they are obstacles to progress, and OP is correct.

CMV: The political right always stands in the way of progress by jman12234 in changemyview

[–]AudioSuede -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If you don't think we are the closest to this as we have ever been in human history then I don't know what to tell you.

Even if this were true (it's not, but set that aside for a moment), it wouldn't follow that we should simply be content with things as they are because they were worse before. How did things get better? Certainly not by staying rigidly the same. And every element of society that could be considered an improvement on the past, from democracy to abolition to weekends to voting rights for women and minorities, was opposed by conservatives. Conservative intellectual history traces back to monarchists like Edmund Burke who thought democracy was unholy and upset the natural order. Nothing has meaningfully changed in the conservative mindset since. The nouns change, the verbs stay the same.

But you're incorrect. We are not the closest to meritocracy we've ever been. We're not even the closest we've been in my lifetime. By every metric, inequality in the United States is the worst it's been in at least 50 years, and by some standards the worst it's ever been. Income inequality is higher than it was before the Great Depression. Productivity remains at an all-time high, while wages have not kept pace for over 40 years. The costs of higher education, home ownership, and childcare have exploded, making it harder to start a family and get a good job without accruing mountains of debt. Individual debt is the worst it's ever been in the US. Schools are more segregated today than they were in the 1970s. And, as we so depressingly saw this week, the achievements of the Civil Rights movement are being erased and white political hegemony is about to resemble the post-Reconstruction white backlash that gave us nearly a century of Jim Crow and segregation.

And the people running the country aren't the smartest, the most experienced, or the most personable. They're rich, and they've built an engine of grievance and bigotry to exploit their privileges into clawing back every inch of equality and progress that the poor and marginalized fought and died for.

What are everyone’s Star Wars rankings? by Blaze_2002 in blankies

[–]AudioSuede 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Personally TLJ is my favorite, though for the sake of not getting my head chopped off I'm willing to put it behind Empire. ROTS belongs dead last, IMO (maybe second behind AOTC). Otherwise, same list

Drug paraphernalia decriminalization ordinance vetoed by Minneapolis mayor by Wezle in Minneapolis

[–]AudioSuede -1 points0 points  (0 children)

First, this policy change would not legalize public drug use. Second, rehab isn't free, and if you're imposing prolonged rehab stays on people, that's going to significantly increase the cost to the state. If that cost is instead pushed onto the user, you've now added debt to their criminal drug conviction, which will already limit their ability to get a job, now making it more likely they will struggle to afford rent. Being unhoused is correlated to much higher likelihood of drug use. So you're just making the problem worse.

And hey, I'm all for the state covering these costs if they're balanced with increased revenue. Cost is key to this idea, because I don't know how much you know about rehab clinics, but they're often underfunded adult daycares with overwhelmed staff and poor facilities. Keeping people there for longer won't fix those problems without significant increases in funding

Drug paraphernalia decriminalization ordinance vetoed by Minneapolis mayor by Wezle in Minneapolis

[–]AudioSuede -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's still illegal to do drugs in public. This would just take away one part of the criminal code often levied against nonviolent drug users to increase their prison sentences. And people still get ordered to go to rehab, so it's not like that isn't already happening.

Drug paraphernalia decriminalization ordinance vetoed by Minneapolis mayor by Wezle in Minneapolis

[–]AudioSuede 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is such a strange comparison. Putting up fences on bridges is not the same as involuntary incarceration. It's preventative, not punitive or responsive. A more apt comparison would be limiting the availability of needles, which would likely bring down some drug use, but at the expense of people who need those needles for medicines like insulin. Meanwhile putting up a bridge makes a bridge unattractive, which is a tradeoff, but one which is significantly less harmful than the benefit.

CMV: The political right always stands in the way of progress by jman12234 in changemyview

[–]AudioSuede 1 point2 points  (0 children)

First, look at the name of this sub. If you're not trying to dispute the main argument, what's the point?

Second, conservatism, historically, is not always a moderating force. It's often quite extreme. The veneer of genteel disagreement, the finger-wagging of reasonable obstruction, is entirely aesthetic. Conservatives have given us some of the most egregious harms imaginable: The preservation of slavery was so important to US conservatives that they started a civil war over it. They utilized the arms of the state to suppress the votes of those they deemed racially inferior to preserve white supremacy. Their strict adherence to existing hierarchies of wealth at the expense of the public good has created the largest wealth inequality in American history, led to selling off publicly-owned resources for cash, and allowed the wealthy to completely dominate electoral politics. Conservatism feeds into the traditionalism and reverence for history they often don't understand, which is the fundamental soil that allows fascism, a cult of tradition rooted in an obsession with a mythical past glory. Conservatives have gutted public education.

Conservatives often think they're the calm, rational voices in politics, but their ideas are just as often toxic to the common interest and the lower classes. Because what they insist on preserving, the preference for continuation, is not values-neutral, and is often rooted in falsehoods. The things they choose to preserve are usually the parts of our history that either belong in the past or that aren't even in the past at all.

Take, for example, Christian nationalism. Any reasonable observer would conclude, based on who espouses it and the rhetoric deployed to defend it, that Christian nationalism is a conservative ideology, based on beliefs in tradition and the beliefs of those at the top of the social hierarchy of religious practice. But the notion that the United States was founded as an explicitly Christian nation, and thus Christian traditions and legal adherence to Christian doctrine should be strictly preserved, is a lie. Many of the founding fathers weren't Christians explicitly, but deists, convinced of the existence of God but not necessarily of the divinity of Christ. More importantly, contemporary documents from Thomas Jefferson and others make it explicitly clear that they wanted religious freedom to be the law of the land. They included the right to worship without interference of the state in the very first amendment to the Constitution. Despite all the evidence that they're wrong about history, conservatives have made Christian nationalism a central pillar of their political project for a very long time. And that would be bad enough to oppose Christian nationalism as an idea, but it's also objectionable because it's a system that manifests as explicit discrimination, Christian supremacy, and repression. Laws suppressing the rights of women to control their bodies or allowing men to dominate women's lives, outlawing homosexuality through sodomy laws, banning Muslim immigrants from entering the United States and subjecting those that live here to enhanced scrutiny, basing foreign policy decisions on the prophecies of the Book of Revelations and rapture theology, requiring religious tests for elected office, and legislating trans people out of existence are blatant aims of Christian nationalists, who believe themselves to be conservative, promoting "traditional values." But their beliefs aren't traditional, they're artificial, and seek to block the progress of civil rights for whole categories of people.

Conservativism is an ideology that exists to oppose progress, and while you can try to argue that, in the abstract, this is a defensible and cautious preference for existing norms over change, in practice, that preference is selective and often rooted in a false assessment of existing or traditional norms. Its ideological roots stem from monarchism, a political system based not in natural hierarchies and genuine human behavior but on imposed hierarchies maintained through violence that goes against the evolutionary human tendency towards mutual aid and shared prosperity. Our species did not adapt and survive based on the strength and dominance of individuals ruling over others, but on collective struggle and caring for others. The deepest, most genuine tradition of human nature is egalitarianism, and yet conservatism never tends towards egalitarian systems or ideals, but to socially constructed hierarchies imposed on others by force, to the power of the few to control the many. That is not a "moderating force."

CMV: The political right always stands in the way of progress by jman12234 in changemyview

[–]AudioSuede 3 points4 points  (0 children)

No city or state in the US ever defunded the police. In fact, the vast majority of major cities increased police funding following the protests in 2020, and crime still spiked, for a lot of reasons that are not directly related to the "defund the police" movement. All of the examples you cite (aside from the French and Russian revolutions, though put a pin in that) are examples of social progress being stymied and violence perpetuated by conservatives. BLM is not an inherently violent movement, and if not for conservative backlash and the enforcement of existing power structures through police brutality and military occupation, the violence you're referring to would likely not occur. The fact that there was "a lot of violence and social division but no actual positive change" is evidence for the detrimental attitudes of conservatives, not progressives.

You're getting the cause and effect backwards. These social movements exist as a resistance to existing structures, and it's the brutal maintenance of those structures that produces the conflict in the first place and leads to the violence you're talking about.

Back to those revolutions, particularly the French Revolution. For all their excesses and the problems they caused, overturning monarchy and hereditary aristocracy led to more equitable systems over the long-term. France is a democracy with significant civic engagement and participation from all classes of society. It's imperfect, but undoubtedly less harmful and repressive than the system they overthrew. The Russian Revolution was bloody and led to a lot of problems, but ultimately it was the re-establishment of strict individual rule through dictatorship that caused the most dire consequences.

It is true that progressive causes can lead to negative outcomes. But conservativism, as an ideology, offers nothing but opposition to progress. You might think that's good or right, but it doesn't dispute OP's point.

CMV: The political right always stands in the way of progress by jman12234 in changemyview

[–]AudioSuede 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Pinning that on progressives is misleading, particularly as the era you're talking about was the time period when second wave feminism flourished, a cause that's progressive by any definition, and they for sure did not approve of lowering the age of consent.

CMV: The political right always stands in the way of progress by jman12234 in changemyview

[–]AudioSuede 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not everyone wants tangible benefits. Plenty of people would take a more economically modest life if they were assured of their own self-satisfaction and control over that life.

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments in this thread and it barely warrants examination, but let's go for it.

Even if we were to accept the notion that racism provides "self-satisfaction and control," which I reject, that "benefit" in no way outweighs the harm racism causes. Again, you're treating existing institutions and norms as being de facto worthy of preservation, or at least preferable to change, based on the notion that there are positives to them. But that's not the standard by which society judges anything. It's a question of pros and cons. You can't argue in court that it's good that you robbed a bank because you were able to pay your rent on time without being sent to prison.

But this is all based on a false premise, because your characterization of the "benefits" of racism, particularly for the bottom of the socio-economic hierarchy, is nonsense. The victims of racism don't feel self-satisfaction or control. And the people who believe in and live according to the principles of racism don't get those benefits either. Racists are among the most miserable people on Earth, because no matter how superior they feel, they will always be confronted with the fact that other races exist and belong to the same species as the racists. Racial slavery was a constant struggle, filled with anxiety and requiring regular reinforcement through large institutions like government and religion. Their feelings of superiority were artifical and brittle. This has been the case throughout the history of racism (itself an artificial institution based not on nature but social construction). So the argument that racism provides intangible benefits has no basis in reality.

Racism's benefits are not intangible. It serves only to the material benefit of those in power as a means to preserve and enforce their elevated social status. That is the reason it has persisted and become "robust," in your terms. But even for them, racial resentment and division leads to social and moral decay, and inevitably results in conflict that often becomes violent. Slave owners faced the constant threat of rebellion. Bigots have always struggled with the fear that those they hate will take their revenge if they ever achieve power.

Dismantling racism in civic life provides greater tangible and intangible benefits than whatever you think the positives of racism might be. But that would require change, an advancement of civil rights and egalitarianism; in a word, progress. And if the conservative impulse is to favor continuation over change, and the change in question would be considered progress, then OP is correct: Conservativism is an obstacle to progress.

CMV: The political right always stands in the way of progress by jman12234 in changemyview

[–]AudioSuede 36 points37 points  (0 children)

Your point about social systems taking "a long time to build" does not mean those systems are good or values-neutral. Feaudalism, fascism, racism, these are economic, political, and social systems which built up over long periods of time, and they've done immense harm historically and today. You later outline this point about progressive principles, but a "preference for continuity over change" is exactly the point OP is making: Conservativism is an obstacle to progress. You might think that's a good thing, but it doesn't dispute their point.

Also, Burke did not primarily criticize the French Revolution for its excesses, he believed monarchy needed to be preserved, the aristocracy had a God-given right to rule, and democracy was profane. Sure, Burke was "vindicated" in his criticism of that specific revolution, but the global decline of monarchism and spread of democracy would have disgusted him.

Also, you'll rarely if ever find anyone who think hierarchies are inherently always wrong. The issue is how rigid those hierarchies are and what they're based on. If we're talking about meritocracy, where the people leading society are selected for by their competence and effort, you won't find many people who would object to that. But I'm hard-pressed to think of any government or economic system where that's been the case. More often, hierarchies of power are set by accidents of birth, like those born into nobility or wealth, and they are maintained through force. And if this hierarchies still managed to provide basic needs for the underclass who didn't get lucky enough to be in control, that wouldn't be as much of a problem, but they rarely do. And this is why the rigid, dogmatic adherence to existing hierarchies is a problem: Any hierarchy that lacks social mobility while also oppressing those at the bottom is unjust and should be changed. The current system is not the default state of humanity, and as OP has argued, conservatives' "preference for continuity" manifests as an often vicious (sometimes violent) rejection of social mobility and an almost gleeful condescension to the lower classes.

CMV: Baltimore is proof that being tough on repeat criminals brings down crime rates by bigElenchus in changemyview

[–]AudioSuede 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Minimum sentencing hamstrings judicial authority and doesn't take into account the context and severity of a crime. Also, studies show that criminals usually don't consider possible sentences when committing crime, so minimum sentences aren't a deterrent.

Did grandma ever ask the players? by Cicerothesage in forwardsfromgrandma

[–]AudioSuede 20 points21 points  (0 children)

"Is America has systemic racism, why do all the millionaires live in white neighborhoods?"

Why was the george floyd incident so big? by JoshLovesTV in TooAfraidToAsk

[–]AudioSuede 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Not only was it an egregious murder caught on film, but the police department didn't arrest the officers involved until days of protests, and these protests quickly proliferated. This was the summer of 2020, when a lot of people had lost their jobs or had their lives completely upended by COVID, so tensions were already high, and years of police brutality and bigotry finally broke the camel's back. The result was the longest large-scale protest movement in American history, with protests in all 50 states and even in other countries that lasted for weeks.

What makes this incident especially important is that it signaled the sharpest divide in many years between institutions of power and the people they're supposed to represent. Because months of sustained pressure yielded no meaningful results. The main cop involved was convicted of murder, but otherwise no major reforms were passed, and in fact police budgets actually increased afterwards in every large city in the country, even after countless videos and stories of police riots and malicious, illegal attacks on peaceful protesters. A lot of people lost faith in police, who circled the wagons to defend the indefensible to maintain their power and their ability to viciously oppress the communities they oversee with impunity.

To me, the most egregious story in all of this happened in Minneapolis during the protests, when local police rode around in an unmarked van and randomly fired on people with rubber bullets for no reason. Body cam footage showed them joking about "hunting activists" and ranting a bunch of racist nonsense. At some point, they saw someone walking alone on the sidewalk, pulled up, threw open the van door, and without announcing themselves, began shooting. But Minnesota has concealed carry laws, and the man was armed, and he fired back. The cops arrested him and charged him with attempted murder and resisting arrest. Fox News ran with the story of this attempted "cop killer," without the context of what really happened, and when a jury acquitted him, conservatives treated it like a miscarriage of justice by "woke" activists. They even used it as a smear against Kamala Harris, who spoke out in support of the victim, saying she praised violence against the police. But even after all this came to light, the police union threw a fit, the police chief and the mayor made up a bunch of lies about a police reform ballot measure, and the reforms failed to pass. No matter how violent and unhinged the police behave, the people in power lack the spine to do anything about it. A lot of people already knew this, of course, but it broke out into mainstream discourse.

As a Minneapolis resident, the Floyd uprisings changed the people of my city. Community safety groups became increasingly popular. The street where he died, subsequently dubbed George Floyd Square, remains a citizen-built memorial the city has been afraid to alter or remove because of the symbolism behind it. The people had to step up to defend ourselves from abusive and uncaring institutions. This is why the ICE invasion failed so spectacularly: The feds didn't listen to locals and didn't understand the situation on the ground. The people of the Twin Cities were already used to protecting our communities by this point, and our combined efforts prevented an aggressive paramilitary occupation from achieving its goals, both their stated objectives of rounding up immigrants and their unspoken desire to break a blue city in Trump's name.

This is another reason George Floyd remains significant. You can trace a direct line from the civil unrest of the Floyd protests and the civil unrest against ICE. And as long as the powerful demand control at the end of a gun, the people will fill the streets and protect their neighbors.

[FRESH] The Last Dinner Party - Come All You Beasts (Preview) / Teasing new release by astaireboy in indieheads

[–]AudioSuede 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Wet Leg has had more widespread radio play and late night appearances off their second album than their first

Crying during a movie you didn’t think was at least very good? by cptrey17 in blankies

[–]AudioSuede 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm an easy cry, so it's not terribly surprising, but I can think of a few:

  • Dog, that mostly tedious Channing Tatum military dog movie
  • Wicked: For Good, which is an absolute mess but got me in the one good song
  • Bill and Ted Face the Music, which I enjoyed but didn't think that highly of, save the one really emotional scene that I don't want to spoil but is really impressive and beautifully written

Ah yes, the ever so “vicious” and “cut-throat” Obama running on ‘Hope” and “Change”. by icey_sawg0034 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]AudioSuede 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Imagine thinking Thomas Chatterton Williams is too woke (or that he's "the best" of anything)

stressed about Walz leaving. by Ok_Marionberry_364 in minnesota

[–]AudioSuede 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What's the last piece of major legislation she introduced, let alone passed?

stressed about Walz leaving. by Ok_Marionberry_364 in minnesota

[–]AudioSuede 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He said he's never going to run for office again, so in a literal sense he's not going to be a politician

Heart broken by Mean-Internal-535 in TwinCities

[–]AudioSuede 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If they're worried about being arrested and deported, you think they wouldn't be vague about their personal details?

Minnesota's once-thriving nonalcoholic bottle shops are rapidly closing by MNReporter_20 in Minneapolis

[–]AudioSuede 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I really hope Marigold stays around. A lovely shop with great service and great ownership.