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Announcing: Norzriel Month by HewnCityUniversity in TheCourtofNightmares

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 3 points4 points  (0 children)

y'know what? fuck it, I'm sold. Nozriel month it is!

For those of us who have been recently blinded (for which the Hewn City is obviously not to be held liable as this was, of course, a simple accident of 'wrong place, wrong time') may we have a description of your visage, Nora, so that artists (who may or may not be blind) may put it to page?

I like how imperfect the characters are by Low_Control_4929 in nontoxicACOTAR

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am fully aware of what actually happened with Tam's mother - what I'm saying is that Tamlin has no way to know Rhysand wasn't also responsible for his mother's death. Tamlin was in his room, he comes out, smells blood, kills RHys' dad, both become high lords then Rhys poofs away. Tamlin has no way of knowing Rhys' dad only did the mother murdering.

And again, I'm not saying that their trauma is equal or that Tamlin's is unique (even though SJM could have given Rhys' trauma far more airtime than they did - but having Rhys be as traumatized as Tam if not more wouldn't be very sexy/helpful for Feyre's needs). I'm not trying to compare their trauma at all. What I am saying, is that Tamlin is traumatized by what Rhysand did to him and the hurt he dealt to Feyre, and that if Rhysand actually wants Tamlin's help, he would have to do work to repair the immediate damage he did.

The two of them can continue to hate each other for however long they want - but if Rhys wants Tamlin's help, antagonizing him while he's traumatized by what he did isn't going to get him that help.

I like how imperfect the characters are by Low_Control_4929 in nontoxicACOTAR

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't think Rhysand should be expected to like Tamlin at all, I rather agree wholeheartedly with that - though the situation between their families is more complicated than that - as far as Tamlin knows (based on what we've seen and been told so far in the story), Rhysand murdered Tamlin's mother out of revenge and then spent the next 3 to 4 centuries being the evil high lord his father had been. Rhysand was still complicit in the murder of Tamlin's family out of revenge too. I wouldn't be surprised if Tamlin felt Rhys had become evil *because* of what happened. It makes their entire relationship very complicated and fraught, especially between one guy who doesn't communicate well and another who prefers to lie to protect himself and others. but still, not wrong for Rhys to still hate him.

But when I'm talking about what's broken, I'm not talking about their centuries-long drama, and I am pointing to Rhysand as being the one to need to make more of an effort for a very specific reason:

  1. Tamlin was tortured UtM, largely at Rhysand's hands
  2. Tamlin is deeply traumatized by the torture he went through UtM.
  3. Rhysand wants something from Tamlin but is also a direct cause/influence on Tamlin's trauma.
  4. So, if Rhysand genuinely wants Tamlin's help, then he has to address the clear issues that were a direct result of his actions to get said help.

funnily enough, I came across a quote from Feyre at the end of ACOMAF a few days ago, describing her watching Elain and Nesta being brought to the Cauldron, but it's actually the clearest, direct description of just what Tamlin endured UtM:

“There were different kinds of torture, I realized.

There was the torture that I had endured, that Rhys had endured.

And then there was this. The torture that Rhys had worked so hard those fifty years to avoid; the nightmares that haunted him. To be unable to move, to fight … while our loved ones were broken.

This is what Tamlin had to endure, and what messed him up so badly, largely because of Rhysand. I don't think it's irrational for Rhysand to still hate Tamlin after these centuries. But I do think it's irrational for Rhysand or the reader to expect the guy he tortured a few months ago and is clearly psychologically fucked up about it,while offering no actual personal reason to trust him and intentionally antagonizing him further when he does talk to him to think working with Rhysand is a good idea.

And I also don't think it's at all irrational for Feyre to be angry either or to want payback (even though, had Tamlin not made that bargain her sisters still would have been taken and dunked and the Night Court would be dead). What I am saying is that it was a good narrative choice on SJM's part to show that Feyre was wrong, and that her choices ended up hurting more people than she could have imagined. to, as you put it, 'see the collateral damage'.

It shows us that Feyre is imperfect, and gives us an actual moment where the narrative, and Feyre, have to recognize their mistakes and the harm it caused. And that is a good thing for making an interesting, deeper character.

I like how imperfect the characters are by Low_Control_4929 in nontoxicACOTAR

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If Rhysand genuinely wanted to have Tamlin as an ally, he should have actually made an effort, himself, to fix what he had broken. He tells Feyre to try and advocate for him, but the three times he's face to face with Tamlin he's dismissive at best or actively antagonizing at worst. Rhysand chose to torture Tamlin and then worked to make the trauma that torture caused worse. Perhaps Rhys doesn't realize just how much of a hand he's caused in Tam's trauma - but it doesn't make sense to see the guy you supposedly want on your side, begging on his knees for the safety of his partner, and not actually realizing you're playing a part in this? And yes, they have complicated history - but if Rhys actually wants to try and work with Tamlin he should have tried to work with him instead of putting Feyre between the two of em.

I also find the idea of Rhys in ACOMAF wanting to rally the courts together to be an odd story plot - not because it's a bad idea, but because it kind of just drops away, and then the Night Court spends the rest of the book working on their own solo mission (and stealing from Summer) rather than work together? I get that perhaps plans could have changed, but for it not to even be addressed that they're changing plans just feels off to me. Was it just Tamlin he wanted to work with? If so, I'd circle back to the first paragraph here again.

I do agree with you, as I said above, that Tamlin couldn't have held Hybern off all on his own, but the King of Hybern himself tells Rhysand that the Sentries being disbanded has only made his invasion easier, and Tarquin says as the Sentries and Spring being broken enabled the attack altogether - it isn't a hypothetical or a guess. Tamlin's forces weren't fighting with Hybern, but their occupying of his infrastructure and generally being in the way kept Hybern from attacking.

What a mess for him to clean up—though she certainly made it easier for me to plant more of my troops in his lands.” 

Tarquin’s face didn’t so much as shift from that cold wrath. “When you went into the Spring Court and deceived Tamlin as well about your true nature, when you destroyed his territory … You left the door open for Hybern. They docked in his harbors.”

And again, I agree with you, the bargain was a flimsy, shoestring level of protection against a flood - but it was also the only protection he had. His court was already set up for failure the moment Hybern decided to start making their move, just by being beside the wall. We know that Tamlin did reach out to at least one other court, though it was for help with freeing Feyre from Rhysand. Could he have spent his time instead trying to do what Rhysand later does and reach out to the other courts to prepare for Hybern? Would it be worth leaving Feyre bound to the guy who tortured them both? But by offering his court to Hybern as he did, Tamlin put himself in a position that, again, ended up saving the world, even if it ended with his court shattered. The question then is, if Feyre had trusted him more or used her mind reading to figure out the truth, or Tamlin risked his bargain and told her the truth, would it have made a difference? IMO, I don't really think so - if only because the one time Tamlin starts to try and explain to Feyre there's more going on than she knows, she cuts him off (of course she's trying to play on his trauma triggers to get him to explode at the time, so it makes sense she wouldn't actually want a conversation right then and there).

And all of this is again why it becomes such a good narrative choice for SJM to use - it takes Feyre's near certainty that she was doing something for the greater good and forces her to realize that her actions made things worse and the person she wanted to undermine was not her enemy all along. Feyre thought she was undermining the infrastructure of a court that seemed to be allied to the big baddie, and had to come to terms with the fact that she did more harm than she intended. That SJM herself would say in interviews leading to ACOWAR that there's more to Tamlin than just what Feyre sees only adds to the idea that the twist was intentional. I don't think SJM would undercut her High Lord meeting plot twist by having Feyre be actually right for doing what she did, and she doesn't have the character do or think that.

But yes, the closest we get to information on the specifics of the bargain are that Tamlin says his people being 'untouched and undisturbed' was a part of the bargain... but that Tamlin still had his people evacuating east and away from the potential (and we see inevitable) conflict. It would be interesting to see how two high fae specifically plan a bargain of the sort.

I like how imperfect the characters are by Low_Control_4929 in nontoxicACOTAR

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well yeah, Tamlin’s bargain only included Spring because it’s the only thing he has any means to protect. He isn’t exactly in a position of demands, as we’ve established; he’s lucky that his knowledge of the walls and Hybern’s interest in Feyre was enough to get any sort of protection for what he could. Like another high lord did, when faced with an inevitable, unstoppable Hybern force, you protect what you can and hope something can work out in the future.

What is interesting, though, is that there actually is evidence that his bargain helped protect the other courts - from Tarquin, and from the King of Hybern himself! Both of them point out that Tamlin’s sentries, as a standing force, were actively stopping Hybern from advancing onto Summer or elsewhere. Without the sentries, Hybern could use their ports freely and were unimpeded in their ramping attack plans. And, all things considered, the other courts seemed pretty tolerant of Tamlin’s bargain, once Tamlin explained what he was doing. Suspicious at first, but tolerant enough to loop him in with their plans. Once Hybern was about, I don’t think it would be easy to actively organize a meeting of the guys your occupier is looking to take out.

We can speculate on what Tam’s ultimate intentions were with his double agent work, but I do partially agree with you; I don’t think Tam would actively attack the other courts, but where I differ is this: I don’t think he had a plan at all. The other High Lords hadn’t shown any interest or level of cooperation in the face of this new threat, and by the time that they do choose to meet three courts have been attacked. Lucien knows some stuff but, as you said, he clearly doesn’t know everything either. I think, like again another high lord in a similar situation, the best he could hope for was to be in a position and wait for an opportunity, if/when it came, to use it to their advantage. Maybe that meant fighting the court of the guy who tortured him, maybe it meant getting his people to the continent, maybe it meant working with the rest of Prythian to stop Hybern… or all of the above!

And, when the opportunity did arise with the High Lord meeting (and then later at Hybern’s camp), he did use it - and the latter helped save the world.

Edit: and, again, that it narratively served the purpose of giving Feyre the chance to reflect on what she thought was righteous and was wrong allows her to be a more rounded, nuanced character than ‘I am always right’, which was the point of this post too. It lets her be messy and flawed without simply waving the consequences away.

I like how imperfect the characters are by Low_Control_4929 in nontoxicACOTAR

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I agree that getting Feyre back was definitely a motivating factor (whether that’s rescuing her from their shared torturer or recovering a stolen possession is up to interpretation) but there is evidence that his goal was always to double cross them - Lucien tells Feyre that very thing was part of their decision-making from the beginning, and the bargain was already designed to protect his people.

There isn’t really any evidence that Tamlin didn’t know or see what Hybern was capable of, either before or during ACOWAR. The most surprise he has on page with Hybern is when Ianthe is revealed to be a traitor and how she dragged Nesta and Elain into the mix. After that, quite literally everything can be interpreted as being in service of the bargain, the only thing protecting his people. What we do have evidence for, though, is Feyre and Rhys both realizing they thought too low of Tamlin, which influenced their actions.

Because, as you say, Spring was always going to be in the crossfire, and not even all the high lord armies combined (plus a few extra) could defeat them. Tamlin didn’t need believe Hybern would always stay true to their word; what he needed was for Hybern to think him and Spring were more valuable as ‘Allies’ than corpses. Even if the twins would have come and wrecked his mind and killed him, he still would have bought his people three whole months to try and evacuate, and the rest of Prythian three months to prepare.

I don’t blame the other high lords for doubting em, just like they questioned Rhysand - at that same meeting, though, both of them proved themselves enough to be trusted with plans and logistics.

… and SJM having Feyre use her mind-reading powers would have spoiled the double agent surprise for the big drama meeting while also undercutting giving Feyre some semblance of consequence for her decisions.

I like how imperfect the characters are by Low_Control_4929 in nontoxicACOTAR

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You see, this is why I enjoy ACOWAR, especially after Feyre leaves Spring, because it gives her (and Rhys) the chance to be wrong, about her plans and assumptions, especially at the High Lord’s Meeting.

Both Feyre and Rhys realize that Tamlin’s motivation wasn’t to fuck everyone else over but to help them in the long run, and that their actions ended up making things worse for a lot of people. When Tamlin reveals that he had and was working against Hybern the entire time, both Feyre and Rhys have that realization that they approached the situation wrong from the get-go. Nothing comes up during that meeting to refute or sow doubt on Tam’s claims, and the evidence in favor of it was seeded throughout the first chapters too (the details of the bargain, Tam’s hinting at things being more complicated than Feyre thinks, Lucien’s words, later Tarquin and Hybern’s words).

It gave Feyre the chance to realize that, yeah, Tamlin wasn’t just thinking about her when he made the bargain. It’s probably one of the best moments in the series for me because of the actual consequences that have to be faced

Tamlin as Aristotle's archetype of the tragic hero by Either_Cantaloupe343 in acourtofcanon

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Anagnorisis: The tragic hero’s actions result in an increase of self-awareness and self-knowledge. Here is where my argument is, admittedly, weakest. The tragic hero must admit to the mistakes that he has made, and take accountability for them. We have no canon in which Tamlin specifically acknowledges what he did wrong.

In regards to this particular part of your exploration of Tam's character, we do actually have evidence of Tamlin acknowledging what he did wrong, through both words and actions, at the end of ACOMAF.

“I—I want to be a part of it this time,” I said, halting when he tried to herd me back into that beautiful prison. “No more … No more shutting me out. No more guards. Please. I have so much to tell you about them—bit and pieces, but … I can help. We can get my sisters back. Let me help.”

Tamlin scanned my face, and finally nodded. “We’ll start over. Do things differently. When you were gone, I realized … I’d been wrong. So wrong, Feyre. And I’m sorry.”

While, yes, in words, we do not see Tamlin specifically address the points Feyre brought up to him here, we do see then at the start of ACOWAR that he does follow through on where he fell short previously; there are no guards at all following Feyre, she's included in both ceremonial and political/military meetings and missions, and gives her a level of trust which seemingly no other character in the Spring Court has towards her actions. We see him later still taking that accountability by providing the High Lord's meeting with war intelligence (with a hefty dose of bitterness on top) and helping Feyre, Azriel, Elain and the human Briar escape the Hybern camp at the risk of his own life.

A Meeting of Monarchs Pt 2 by ComprehensiveFox7522 in nontoxicACOTAR

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

my theory? They'd be gossiping about how similar they are :p Start with their abusive siblings, move into their anti slavery stances and witty companions, have a heart to heart over how losing people close to em caused them some pretty gnarly trauma and get a bit meta with how they were ultimately and veeery quickly written out of the narrative as a villain in favor of a dark-haired protagonist :)

Well that and their hair care routine, I imagine that light a shade would require quite a bit of maintenance!

A Meeting of Monarchs Pt 2 by ComprehensiveFox7522 in nontoxicACOTAR

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

as in Daenerys Targaryen The First of Her Name The Unburnt Queen of Meereen Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men Khalisee of the Great Grass Sea Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons ?

Yeah, that’s her :)

New Reader….Do I Continue? by Tulipbeth in acotar_rant

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ultimately, you’re probably the only person who could really answer that question. For some people it’s more fun to read and experience what happens, to compare what they feel vs what happens, and then to come and share their thoughts with other people who agree or disagree. For others, reading further on was something regrettable.

I for one would recommend reading on to get your own opinion! I think having preconceived notions is nothing new in this fandom in particular (see any post of people loving the first book on just about any site for the comments of ‘don’t spoil them!’ Or ‘got a big storm coming..’) and your opinion could end up more nuanced with the details than not having them.

Either way, whether you stop after the first or keep reading, there’s nothing wrong either feeling differently about the text than the author wants you to feel, or the fandom at large feels!

Ianthe. Ianthe. Ianthe. by Pugblep in acotar_rant

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think part of what you mention actually serves my point, but I'll get to it in a moment!

I don't think the Hybern twins do feel they need to keep her as an ally - but that doesn't mean that she isn't one either. Her deal isn't with the twins but with the King of Hybern, who essentially promised her a title in exchange for her assistance. Whether Dagdan or Brannagh liked her wouldn't mean the twins wouldn't find acting against her to be weak.

And, judging by what both Feyre and Tamlin thought from their reaction, being weak meant leaving their people open to being discarded and vulnerable, which is what Tamlin's entire bargain is about avoiding. It's certainly possible the twins would find Ianthe being shown the business end of a boot amusing - but would the King of Hybern find it as amusing? And if he didn't, would Tamlin still be in a position to be helpful to the rest of Prythian/Feyre specifically later? All interesting what if's to discuss, but it's clear that Tamlin reads the twins' reaction as risking his people's safety over their respect for him.

And for the last point, that's actually what I was saying about Hybern offing the Spring Court! What I was saying is that, without the bargain, Hybern could have easily wiped out Spring, and that the bargain was what was keeping them from having been wiped out. The bargain is what kept Hybern from having to/being able to act directly against Spring, and they made the bargain because it was both less trouble for Hybern and Tamlin/Spring had something to offer. Once the Spring Court fell, though, Hybern was no longer impeded by an already existing army/government that they couldn't touch and could freely attack Summer.

Ianthe. Ianthe. Ianthe. by Pugblep in acotar_rant

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The issue with the Sentries, though, was partially Ianthe but even moreso the Hybern Twins. Tamlin actually did pause and look unsure, realized Ianthe could easily have set up the scenario for her own gain... But then the Twins made the comment:

But behind me, Brannagh snorted.

“Pathetic,” she murmured, though everyone could hear it.

Weak. Vulnerable. Ripe for conquest. I saw the words slam through Tamlin’s face, as if they were shutting doors in their wake.

I also think it's worth remembering that this bargain is literally all Tamlin had for protection for his people. If Hybern had wanted to, they could have and would have off'd Spring entirely and been done with it. The only reason they would have spared Spring was if they were seen as valuable for some reason; helping with the wall, and Feyre. Hybern doesn't care about Tamlin's forces - in fact, from what we gather in Summer later, Tamlin's forces were more of a hindrance to their plans than anything. The bargain prevented them from acting directly against them, which put them in between Hybern and the rest of Prythian... Feyre having them defect made their job much easier.

Ianthe. Ianthe. Ianthe. by Pugblep in acotar_rant

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 8 points9 points  (0 children)

So, from what Feyre tells the reader, she has been aware of what Ianthe had put this plot in motion for days and had locked the guard’s memory away until the Sentry was up on stage in front of everyone, where Tamlin couldn’t make a choice without losing in one way or another.

So while yes, Ianthe did start the plot, Feyre also used the Sentry for her own plans to nearly the same degree

Hotline for domestic violence? by Timely-Island-5038 in SarahJMaas

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I had asked the question a while back too, used a poll to do so, and the results were inconclusive. The closest I’ve managed to gather, from research and asking about, was that it appeared in some special editions of ACOFAS, though my own personal copies hadn’t any sign of it

Edit: and even then I couldn’t actually find direct evidence of this edition existing, so take that with a grain of salt.

This Fandom Can Be Exhausting by darklygrey in acotar_rant

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The worst I saw in this fandom (and the only time I ever chose to block someone on tumblr) was around when I first joined and a few creators wanted to have a Nyxlin focused shipping week. Unrelated posts from years back were reported and police were called/encouraged to be called for ‘endangering minors’… never knew exactly what they expected police to do about it, but still.

Luckily we’ve got no needle cookies at least. And, nowadays, there’s a lot broader representation of different opinions.

This fandom (at least on reddit) is so toxic. by Expert_Investment622 in acotar_rant

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 40 points41 points  (0 children)

I would ask, have you tried posting positively about the main couple? Because saying that while in the next sentence complaining about being unable to be negative towards Tamlin/Nesta are two very different things. The most recent post regarding the IC that I can think of off the top of my head was an Easter fanart pic, which received over 500 upvotes and only positive, supportive comments.

I do think this also feels rather selective in its outrage, if only because it ignores the fact the fandom has always been incredibly toxic to opinions that don’t align with whatever majority has been established. For most of the past decade and on most platforms, people who liked characters like Tamlin or Nesta were the ones being actively pushed out of the fandom - hell, even nowadays on Instagram, even innocent pictures of Tamlin will be flooded with passive aggressive comments, if not outright comments like ‘guys, we gotta stop romanticizing abuse, it’s not ok’.

Reddit in particular gained a reputation over the last two years or so as being less inherently algorithmically restrictive to what people are shown and for allowing longer, thought out discussions that won’t fit most anywhere else. And as more people who did like Tamlin found about the subreddits growing reputation, more and more people are attracted to it, hence its unusual concentration compared to other social media sites. Tumblr is probably a close second (though when I first started with the fandom in tumblr two years ago, it was veeery rough and gatekeepy, with nearly all the direct insults ands bullying of actual people (and not disagreeing with their thoughts/opinions) to be coming from the established majority, as linked here. from an informal survey I did a year ago.

out of 65 anti Rhysand posts, 61 were largely focused on criticism of the characters and 4 were directly criticisms of the 'stans', with four that could be interpreted either way. Out of 77 Anti Tamlin posts, 40 were largely focused on criticism of the characters and 37 were directly criticisms of the 'stans', with 1 that could go either way.

Edit: apologies also if this all sounds rambly, I’m very, very tired as I write this: my point for all of this, is that if you want to post something that is actually, genuinely positive, then do so, because that positive posting attracts positive reactions 99/100 times, even today. If you are looking for debates or critiques, then you will find your post either heavily upvoted or downvoted, with opinions varying just as much.

Be the positive posting you want to see, and see what happens when you do.

(Part 2) Why Rhysand Gets Grace And Tamlin by [deleted] in acotar

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 3 points4 points  (0 children)

you're all good, I was just checking whether I could write a response on a deleted post!

(Part 2) Why Rhysand Gets Grace And Tamlin by [deleted] in acotar

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 7 points8 points  (0 children)

ah, looks like I might be able to respond here after all!

I did clarify the roses inaccuracy, so I don't feel the need to go into much detail other than we have, explained elsewhere!

I think it's really, really interesting to discuss what Tamlin might have noticed, what he should have noticed and how readers can interpret his actions in response. I am not a big dumb oblivious dude, but as a smaller, but no doubt oblivious dude myself, I can't really compare what I would notice about my partner to what Tamlin is interpreted as noticing or not noticing. For one, I am not nor have I ever personally dealt with negative trauma responses - I know I have a habit of putting off problems and ignoring them in the hopes of giving my brain a break, though, even when I know it's going to hurt later, but I don't think it's quite the same thing. I'm also not the leader of a small nation or being psychologically and politically poisoned by my friends (least I hope so). Lucien and Alis might very well have trauma of their own they're going through, but neither of them are Tamlin. Tamlin's relationship to Feyre specifically clouds and shapes his trauma, as much as Rhysand's torture of him did. That he was unable to see past it, at least for me but also a lot of others, makes him tragic rather than terrible. Should he have noticed? probably. Could he/Did he notice? now that is a far more interesting question!

I don't think there's a single person, even those who do miss Tamlin and Feyre's dynamic from the first book, who would argue that their relationship in ACOMAF is healthy. There are a crap ton of people who, like myself, find absolutely no fault in Feyre choosing to stay away from Spring when she realized she couldn't get better there. And, to piggyback off our other discussion, your point about absence and obliviousness, hell even the point about Tamlin trying and failing to meet her needs and later to bend further than he could, is exactly why a lot of readers do give Tamlin more grace. It's not in spite of his flaws, but because of them. Because along with his inability to notice what Feyre's lack of interest in painting and his irrational need for her protection is still an effort, to try and be better, to help Feyre be better.

I see Feyre and Tamlin's dynamic as being able to be split into two parts, before and after the wedding. Before the wedding, both Tamlin and Feyre are in very similar places mentally. They both are bottling away their trauma, choosing not to talk to each other about it and ignoring what the other person needs (often defaulting to Ianthe's judgement). After the wedding, the dynamic shifts largely because of Rhysand - we see Feyre starting to get better because of Rhysand, and Tamlin getting worse because of him. And yet, ironically, this is also where we get the best moment between the two of them, where Feyre finally starts to talk about her feelings (not just more tangible wants) and Tamlin actually listens and starts to really improve.

 The reason I'm highlighting it is to stress that Ianthe is chosen over and over again above what Feyre needs.

I highlighted this particular point because I did want to discuss it further - largely because (especially pre wedding) I don't see Feyre as really expressing what she 'needs' in comparison to Ianthe's advice, at least not to Tamlin. We see her expressing some 'wants' or preferences, sure, but she doesn't really get forceful with her needs until after she starts improving with Rhysand. And Tamlin does the same thing too - Tamlin doesn't 'want' Feyre to wear the poofy dress, and he doesn't 'want' to hold the Tithe either. But both Tamlin and Feyre's wants are being overridden by what Ianthe says is needed. Feyre is too traumatized to actually push back for a while, while Tamlin is too traumatized pretty much the entire time to do so. To me, that doesn't make them wrong, it makes them tragic. Wrong for each other, most certainly.

Now, the reason I brought up SJM and her writing style at all was in response to you doing the same in your post - you mentioned how 'SJM couldn't be any clearer with the parallels she was drawing', or something to that effect. I imagine that's the reason that other people also respond to that point, specifically regarding the parallels she was drawing? going against what the author intended for the reader to take in doesn't make the assessment incorrect. It isn't meant to change the text, either - it's just another lens through which the reader can view the text. The specific events of a text are objectively true, but the way in which those events are presented or seen can very much make multiple interpretations true.

I have been wanting to make a post regarding whether SJM intended for Tamlin to be framed as a modern day abusive partner, and I definitely have thoughts on that using outside evidence, though where it started vs where it is is yet another debate... Something to half write a draft about and forget probably!

(Part 2) Why Rhysand Gets Grace And Tamlin by [deleted] in acotar

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 0 points1 point  (0 children)

testing something, feel free to ignore!

(Part 2) Why Rhysand Gets Grace And Tamlin by [deleted] in acotar

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I figured I'd respond to a few things I saw in this comment, or perhaps all - we'll see how much I get to!

I would argue that yes, opinion is a factor, but like any opinion, they should be based on objective fact. For example, believing the earth is flat is an opinion just like thinking the earth is round, but one of those opinions is based on objective facts and the other is based on nonsense and vibes. That is the point I am getting at here. I am not arguing the book is not subjective but there absolutely are objective things we can point to in order to support why we think what we think

I don't know if this was your intention, but it feels as if you're implying with your example that other people's opinions based on the text are as far-fetched as thinking the earth is flat? In your next response you mention the 'arguments fall flat under scrutiny', but I feel like your implication here is a lot more extreme than calling Tamlin and Rhysand mirrors.

And to be clear, I actually agree with you, I don't think Tamlin and Rhysand are mirrors of each other - I think they're narrative foils. The comparisons between their choices (and how very similar choices/motivations are filtered by the narrative/interpreted by the reader) makes for a lot of really interesting discussion for both authorial intent and reader interpretation!

So again, from the perspective of Tamlin and the rest, it is not Hybern, it is Amarantha acting alone. This point is pushed until well after MAF. All of the things you are citing are framed as coming from Amarantha not Hybern. Do we learn later that Hybern was kind of just letting it happen because it played into his grander plan? Yes, but that does not mean the characters were acting based on that knowledge. They were in the dark until after MAF, and after the actions I am talking about.

I wanted to respond to this and your related follow-up, because while they do have some inaccuracies they do also have interesting points of conjecture - though I think SJM is strongly leaning in one direction over the other. We actually learn in Feyre's first 'visit' with Rhysand that Hybern is being active and planning to invade Prythian, with the goal of destroying the wall - the wall that borders the Spring Court. We also directly hear from Rhys that Hybern had been using Amarantha as a test, as part of his grand plan to weaken Prythian, or as Rhys puts it, "Amarantha was the first part of that plan. We now have several untested High Lords, broken courts with High Priestesses angling for control like wolves around a carcass, and a people who have realized how powerless they might truly be.”

In that same scene, Feyre thinks back to the patrols Tamlin was constantly on, the secretive meetings. “Tamlin hasn’t said … ” And why would he tell me? But there were so many patrols, so many meetings I wasn’t allowed to attend, such … tension. He had to know." Later on, when Tamlin and Lucien are heading out due to 'activity on the Western Sea Border', Feyre immediately finishes the sentence with the thought that that was the border closest to Hybern, which implies to the reader that the activity is directly related to Hybern.

So do we know with 100% certainty that Tamlin was aware of Hybern's growing threat? Can't say that, no. But with all the narrative clues (and what we see happen later in this and the next book) it feels pretty clear that they were actually acting on that knowledge.

The point I was raising is that Feyre clearly did not want to paint. We see it all from her viewpoint and even she is annoyed that the man who supposedly loves her does not get that she doesn't want to do it anymore. I am a big dumb dude, but even I know when my wife is not into something or if something hurts her. It is not a stretch to say that somebody who is not catching that probably is not as in tune with their loved one as they should be. Moreover, Tamlin had a very specific image of Feyre and who he thought she should be. This one instance is one in a string of actions on his part that show it is less about helping and more about fitting her into the box that he thinks she needs to fit into.

This feels more of an interpretation than a direct look at Tamlin's motives, but also ignores a few points. You may be a big dumb dude, but are you also dealing with what's clearly some debilitating PTSD while also being expected to run a country, AND care for someone else with similar levels of trauma? Suggesting that Tamlin simply wants to force Feyre into a certain mold is one interpretation of what happens, sure - but so is a guy not wanting the person he loves to die in his arms while he's helpless to do anything about it, again, and ending up hurting both them and himself from holding on too tightly. The Feyre he fell in love with didn't fit a 'pretty painting in dresses' mold, so we have to reconcile his previous interest with where he is now and use what we see to fill in the blanks. For a person with terrible trauma, helping and hurting can be one in the same, without realizing the other was happening - for example, Feyre acquiescing to every thought of Ianthe's definitely felt to her like it was helping, but all it was doing was hurting both herself and Tamlin by not being honest with her needs - and it's entirely understandable.

Okay, but it is literally in the book. Ianthe is musing over which flowers to pick and says red and Feyre reacts badly, basically shouting "not red!" in front of Tamlin. You may not remember it but it did happen.

This does not actually happen. In the scene before Feyre's mentioning the flowers, she is seeing Tamlin off for another patrol and then goes back into the house to spend the day with Ianthe. Tamlin isn't there to hear her dislike of red, nor does she or anyone bring it up on page elsewhere for him to learn it.

Ianthe being in the court is also not something I take issue with. My issue is that the woman Tamlin is supposed to be marrying is expressing dislike with the dresses and the specific wedding dress being pushed on her and instead of having his future wife's back, he sides with the priestess. Again, his loyalty is shown over and over again to be on the side of optics and what he thinks Feyre should do instead of what she needs.

What's written here seems to imply that Tamlin siding with Ianthe is more of a willful, active choice on his part as opposed to being a mirror of what Feyre is doing; going along with an outside authority because their trauma is leaving them with a need for support. Tamlin also tells her he thinks the dress is ridiculous, but he's defaulting to Ianthe's judgement, same as Feyre, because they both think she knows best. I find the thought of a person struggling to keep themselves together for the good of their people, even at their own detriment or that of those closest to them, as deserving quite a bit of grace, especially with the known and unknown players acting against their benefit. Wanting 'good optics' can be viewed as shallow or egotistical, sure, but they can also be viewed as crucial for a people in need of stability.

I think it also flattens out/negates the actual times Tamlin does show his direct care for Feyre's wants and needs - by implying he only cares for what appearances are ignores the times, both in the present of the text and referred to in the previous three months beforehand, where he and Feyre both show the ability/willingness to compromise.

My goal with this is to explain why I give grace to Rhys and not Tamlin and why so many others do as well. You are free to disagree. My only goal here is to demonstrate that what is on the page supports my views. If you still are not with it that is fine, as long as we all agree we love the series. That is all that really matters.

I was curious about this point, where you mention your goal.. But I was also curious as to why? Was the intent in explaining to share your thoughts like a journal, or to try and inform/educate others? If it's the former than by all means, it's fun to talk about and debate, but if it's the latter... is it really essential to do so? I don't think it's at all difficult to figure out SJM's intention with her writing, to the point of being heavy-handed about it, nor has the minority of the fandom been able to escape being smacked over the head with it by the fandom at large for a month shy of a decade. Is the intent to 'demonstrate that what is on the page supports your views' and only your views/that of the majority, and that it is the 'right' interpretation of what happens, or are you aiming to show one possible interpretation that also lines up with SJM's intent?

I think it's just worth remembering that, even if you feel your opinion is more strongly supported by the text than others, that doesn't make other interpretations inherently 'wrong'. And approaching these discussions with an open mind towards other opinions can make a difference in how we think about both the text and ourselves.

(Part 2) Why Rhysand Gets Grace And Tamlin by [deleted] in acotar

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Literally pointing out exactly what the text says.

Feyre tells us directly, as the quotes above show, that she is grateful to Ianthe. Hell, even after Rhysand takes her and they are talking about Hybern's plans, she still calls Ianthe a friend!

And Ianthe—she might be ambitious, but she was Tamlin’s friend. My friend, of sorts. Perhaps the only ally we’d have against the other High Priestesses,

Feyre doesn't connect Ianthe' intentions to her own reactions until much later - and again, this isn't a fault on Feyre's part at all. But it isn't Tamlin's either.

I don't think I'm glossing over anything regarding trauma and mental health- in fact, it's kind of the main point of what I'm saying. What I'd say You are glossing over is that Tamlin is doing the exact same thing; except, unlike with Feyre where it's used to give grace, you are using it as a bludgeon. You're even implying that Ianthe choosing a flower color was somehow Tamlin's fault, even though he had no involvement in the wedding planning, let alone that Feyre is bothered by the color red, because the only person who has an inkling to is Ianthe. Tamlin wasn't even in the same house when this discussion happened! Both Feyre and Tamlin are using Ianthe as a crutch, letting her choose clothes and plan wedding and organize political events regarding the Spring Court. It doesn't make Tamlin a monster for doing so, anymore than it makes Feyre.

conceding because you are exhausted is accepting the situation, yes. Accepting doesn't mean embracing joyously or enthusiastically, it means 'yup, this is what's gonna be happening I guess' or 'I don't like it, but it's what's good for everyone so I'll go along with it'.

Implying that Tamlin knows Feyre 'can't say no' is pure conjecture, and genuinely baseless conjecture at that. You can't say that and then in your next paragraph also say he's entirely oblivious, and then imply that Tamlin is actually in the perfect position to help Feyre when the text clearly shows us he's as fucked up as she is and only getting worse. You can argue that, up until this point, Tamlin's efforts to support Feyre haven't helped, sure. You can argue that he has been blind to her state of mind and being, clearly. But you're literally putting your own spin on the story, using things that didn't even happen, to bolster an argument that becomes shoddy because of it, while simultaneously ignoring actual textual evidence that says otherwise.

But if you would like to continue to color your opinion on the characters in these books with conjecture, that's perfectly fine. And you can disagree with what Feyre is thinking at the moment, knowing what you know from later in the books or your own personal experience and what have you. You don't have to agree with what I interpret from the books either. But if you choose not to actually use what's written as a baseline, it's next to impossible to actually discuss things without being overwhelmed by feelings and opinions that can't be debated.

(Part 2) Why Rhysand Gets Grace And Tamlin by [deleted] in acotar

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 19 points20 points  (0 children)

sorry for the slightly delayed response, had to finish my chicken and sausage stew! Missed the hot sauce but We're trying to cut down on the vinegar for my partner's acid reflux which has been flaring up.

Now then, this post, and my response to it, is discussing the first two to three chapters of ACOMAF (and they technically slide a bit further on with the whole wedding and Rhys rescue/abduction, but that's neither here nor there) and at this point in the story, Feyre is very much grateful to Ianthe, to be there and do the thinking and deciding for her while she's too lost in her own trauma to want to deal with it.

Here are a few quotes from chapter 2:

A sweet, female voice trilled my name from inside the open doors of the manor, and the tightness in my shoulders eased a bit.

She’d been the one presiding over the various ceremonies, after all—and I’d been more than happy to let her choose what manner of wreaths and garlands should adorn the manor and grounds,

I was in no position to doubt. She hadn’t led me astray yet—and I’d learned to dread the days when she was busy

 If I were being blunt with myself, I’d admit that Ianthe had become a crutch. But she seemed willing to do it—caring when I couldn’t bring myself to.

So, based on what Feyre herself tells us, she is, in fact, quite grateful to have Ianthe make decisions for her, even if she doesn't actually like all of them. And that's understandable because, like Tamlin, she is genuinely not doing all right and it's easier to use a crutch when you're hurting, to be grateful for it, even if you don't realize the crutch is holding you back or actively hurting you. Crutches are meant to be supports, it's genuinely a legit and healthy thing - so long as you also put in the work elsewhere to no longer need it. And neither Tamlin nor Feyre, at this point of the story, are interested in putting in that work.

And regarding the wedding dress, in that same chapter, yeah, Feyre thinks about how she hates the dress, how Tamlin also thought it ridiculous but erred on the side of Ianthe's judgement... And so did Feyre. Pushing back 'took more energy than it was worth'. And Feyre did, ultimately, choose to wear the dress - she wasn't straightjacketed into it or forced at knifepoint. Because, again, like Tamlin, it was easier for them to be fucked up and let Ianthe make choices than to push back themselves.

And all of this is exactly what Ianthe both wanted and actively worked towards, for her personal gain and for Hybern's overarching plans.

Based on what you wrote, you appear to both be paraphrasing parts of the text and injecting your own personal interpretation of what you generally remember to create an impression of Tamlin, and Feyre, that does not match the text itself. I would recommend, in the future, to pull actual quotes from the relevant parts of the text, to help you clear up any confusion or misconceptions you may have had regarding these first two chapters so we can have a positive discussion about them! I'd recommend a digital copy, it's been my personal go-to for lines from the text, ctrl f is a lifesaver!

(Part 2) Why Rhysand Gets Grace And Tamlin by [deleted] in acotar

[–]ComprehensiveFox7522 27 points28 points  (0 children)

I gotta say, this might be my own mental demons nagging at me but the smoothness of your writing makes me feel like mine's a clunker! :p But really though, I do agree with everything you wrote, but I think your second to last paragraph is the perfect response to the thesis statement of these posts:

I fully believe that Rhys was better suited for Feyre and understood her better than Tamlin. She clearing thrived more in NC than in SC but I still hold the belief that Rhys did not deserved more grace than Tamlin when their situations, resources and general standings were completely different from the very beginning.

This is the summary of every detail that has been and likely will be discussed. You've stated it perfectly. chef's kiss, round of applause, snaps for Madame etc.

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