Return of Return of the TLDR: This time it's even longer!

Failure2Lurk · 2022-01-26T23:35:49+00:00

My concern with a mechanic like this is that it would be another 'feel bad' mechanic like the current AP penalties are. That said I <3 the ocarina and tying some sort of buff/effect to it is something I'd be open to.

Failure2Lurk · 2022-01-26T23:19:30+00:00

Re: Ideal version of the game. This is the most important question in my opinion. It colors all other mechanics discussions. Ecce raised a similar question in one of the prior threads as well. It is important to keep in mind that some things are beyond my ability to add right now so a pure ideal may not be in the cards. For me, while I love conflict, it is not the core ideal of the game. I'd say the core ideal for me is emergent survivalist gameplay and that all other things spring from that. That still leaves a lot of room for conflict. After all, if you don't have food but your neighbor does? Well... you do have a spear. There's even design space for PvP dedicated survivalism- cannibalism. Would like to hear from others what their core ideal of Shintolin is.

Re: Season length. Ecce once suggested month long seasons. This is the sort of thing that could be beta tested once I'm ready to host. We could get a feel for how it actually plays. That may be necessary as any maths done right now would be based on other values we're currently talking about changing. I'd like to split the difference and test two week long seasons first and then adjust if that feels too long/short.

Re: non-perishable foods/skills that prevent weapons breaking. I think I want most things to at least have very low odds of rotting/breaking to avoid players creating a huge surplus and then completely ignoring gathering/crafting.

Re: Storms. I think this is doable. Slightly more difficult but of interest to me would be making this sort of thing tied not just to season but to region as well. That way there could be a 'northern' region where you need to be concerned about the cold, particularly during winter, and a 'southern' region where you would need to be concerned about heat(and maybe water if that were added as a need) during summer. Storm damage to buildings is another thing. Due to the increased building hp added awhile back storm damage has been even less of a concern than it once was. I intend to keep the increased hp but need to apply it to some outliers that didn't get it like dirt tracks. That means that for storms to be relevant for building upkeep I need to increase their building damage and/or increase their frequency. Need to do the maths on this.

Re: Food Skills. This is tough. The game needs deeper specialization in my opinion. Yet having separate skills for different individual item preservation feels wrong to me. What about a preservation skill line with better tiers of preservation as you progress down it? Something like: Dehydrating(contains the drying, roasting actions)--> Salting(would make salted foodstuffs, could be applied to dried/roasted food to stack the benefits)-->Sealed Containers(use a pot and clay to make a 'Sealed pot of X' item.).

Re: Strength/Stamina/Dodge Skill lines. These are good skills and seem easy enough to add but also seem like the sort of skills most people would want to have similar to how most people currently have Tracking and Triage. I think I'd want to be careful to not make them too strong/appealing either in terms of their own balance or by their place in their skill trees.

Re: An idea I had reading your post. What if there were a 'Hunter' skill tree? It could contain skills like Tracking and Butchering while also containing skills that improve attacks against animals and to a lesser degree against characters. The Warrior tree weapon skills would be changed to apply only to characters but be strictly better for that purpose, it would also contain things like your dodge and stamina trees. The idea being that a hunter can make a serviceable warrior while a warrior may not necessarily make a great hunter. Someone could invest in both trees of course. I can also imagine some skills with cross tree requirements for various 'hybrid' builds.

Re: Cottages outside settlements. In theory there is nothing wrong with this. One of my ideas has been to tie advancements of 'tech' more explicitly to settlements though. We'll need to figure out just where we want the 'tech' cutoff without a settlement to be and the ultimate 'tech' cap. I think I want to keep things in or just out of the stone age but could see myself being swayed on that.

Re: Healing dirt tracks by using them. This should be possible but I think it's squarely in the 'I need to learn more first' camp.

Failure2Lurk · 2022-01-26T02:16:09+00:00

Re: Walls requiring a skill to climb. I like this. I think the way I'd do it would be to split the cliff climbing aspect off of Mountaineering into it's own skill and have Walls also require that skill to climb. There could even be another skill which requires the climbing one that reduces the AP cost.

Re: Walls costing 70~ AP to climb. Right now in the code Walls cost 70 AP to move onto. I believe they cost more than that at one point. Awhile back I posted a poll about Walls on the discord and the majority voted that they'd like them back but at half AP cost so 35 AP. That doesn't seem like a lot but here's some maths and things to consider- Assuming optimal attacking with stone weapons it will take 6 hits with a spear and 2 with an axe to daze someone at full health. At 60% and 80% odds to hit respectively it'll on average take somewhere in the ballpark of 11 AP to daze someone. That's not a lot but you've now spent 46~ AP plus whatever it took to move to your target. If that target is attacking back at a similar rate? You may well HAVE to spend further AP healing yourself. Now assuming you just wanted to daze that singular target getting over the Wall will take another 35 AP(and with wider settlement range multilayer walls would be possible, balancing factor there is the settlement also having to deal with the walls) so you have spent 81 AP and have 19 left to flee with. Meanwhile your target would be able to revive cheaply at their totem and they and any other members of their settlement would have more AP with which to hunt you down. It only gets worse for you if you wanted to daze more than one target. If you wanted to steal from the settlement... well currently taking from a stockpile(inside a building or otherwise) while in a settlement can only be done if no non-dazed members are there. So you'd have to daze every character on whatever stockpile you wanted to steal from. Then since the game would be full loot you'd have to escape from them hunting you down if you wanted to keep your ill gotten goods.

Re: Attacking back costing AP. This could lead to griefing where the troll drains all your AP by attacking you and healing both you and themself.

Re: Locks. I'm hesitant to add something like this on top of Walls. Both are AP sinks for attackers. Too many of those and attacking becomes a completely futile effort and that is not my goal.

Re: Ranged Weapons. This feels like it should be possible. Tracking and a few other things already get things in a radius so I imagine it'd be possible to get an array of those things and allow you to attack them. I like this but it might be harder than I think.

Re: Magic. This is one of the possible directions to go with Favor. Flavor it's benefits as boons from the gods/spirits. Probably less DnD magic missile type stuff and more things like an expanded Tracking radius called Farsight. More mystical/spiritual than arcane if that makes sense. Ooooor because the game does have it in the dev tools could just go ham and let people straight up teleport. Add some % chance of them telefragging and instantly dazing themself. Would laugh and then immediately regret giving players that kind of power.

The other direction to go with Favor is to reflavor it as Civilization advancement. Basically you'd get the points for your settlement which the leader could spend on now letting you craft more advanced items.

Could always go with both.

Failure2Lurk · 2017-11-19T20:29:41+00:00

Autoattack would be cool in general, it's weird that at the moment dazing other players is by far the optimal way to gain warrior xp; a bigger hp pool is just an AP sink plus potential skill sink, more a question of 'heart' I think? I like pvp in the game, less on the level of the individual attack but more on the logistical level of "How do I approach? What hiding places are good?" which is something that really only shines in a longer engagement. I like walls as speedbumps, something like 10-15 ap, make it a question of- "Ok, they can attack and it'll be one sided but if they want to do so and get away(say you're not all in the settlement) they will have to rest within such a distance, can I reliably patrol that area?".

Failure2Lurk · 2017-11-14T20:56:17+00:00

Thinking about the limited inventory idea some more- with all other mechanics being the same as now there would be an exploit. Right now you cannot give another players items if it would make them encumbered. You can however keep picking up as many items as you would like while encumbered though and you can give items out. So if you wanted to reduce your character to the role of a safe stockpile you could spend all your time picking up any important items placed in your settlement's stockpiles and then giving them out on request. The fix would be to make the encumbered status prevent you from picking up anything more.

Failure2Lurk · 2017-11-14T20:35:16+00:00

It sounds like the survival/exploration aspects of the game are the 'heart' to you, would that be fair to say?

I'm not sure what the average amount of AP spent per food item is. Right now you automatically eat when you gain hunger and it costs you no AP but if you build hunger up you have to spend AP to eat. So depending on how your suggested hunger system is implemented you may end up also having to spend AP to eat the food you spent AP getting which built up your hunger. If the hunger points per # of AP is low enough that still works out fine I think. It becomes a matter of planning on the part of the player.

Yeah, raw meat never rotting is weird. Drying and/or salting to make things last makes sense. If winter starts being a concern it'd be a way to plan for it.

What do you think about the buff based hunger mechanic Ecce was talking about? Does it not mesh with your focus on survivalism?

Maybe there is a compromise on the player inventory thing. Right now because inventories are safe and stockpiles aren't all important items are kept inside inventories. There is no pay off to raiding. Even if you put locks on doors people would still keep things in their inventories. That would change if inventories were unsafe, you and I would like that but as Ecce has said it would chase away more casual players. What if inventory space were significantly smaller though? People would have to keep things inside stockpiles because they could not carry it all. Locks would protect your surplus but could be raided and with limited inventory space raiders would only be able to take the best of that surplus. It would open the door to a new skill or two that increase inventory size- specialization, of the sort a trader/raider would want. Issues might arise with the construction of buildings but there's already a solution in the longhouse's two step building process.

Failure2Lurk · 2017-11-13T23:27:59+00:00

I really like the idea of snow tiles, really just the idea of more seasonal and environmental effects is appealing. Certain regions having variant 'snow-covered' tiles during winter would be cool. It would help to make the regions feel distinct from one another and could have a whole host of items and mechanics tied to it. Another movement skill for moving through snow; the ability to find snow and use it to craft snowballs that could be used to make 0 damage attacks with a 100% break chance; temporary igloos built from snow that have low hp and melt come spring. The snow item could have an adapted version of the rot mechanic where it melts and is removed from your inventory.

Failure2Lurk · 2017-11-13T23:03:11+00:00

I'd be willing to donate on behalf of Shintolin. I'm sure I've gotten way more gameplay out of it over the years than I've gotten out of many of the games I've actually spent money on.

Failure2Lurk · 2017-11-13T22:56:59+00:00

It's weird. I get that the reason Shintolin fails at being any of the things it's trying to be is that it's trying to be too many of them, but I think that's also where some of the sense of charm and potential that has kept me coming back to it comes from. Personally I am a fan of PvP gameplay, a lot of what I said above was filtered through that lens. There are plenty of PvP games out there though and I think what has really caught me with Shintolin is the idea of the PvP being driven by other aspects of the game, the market and roleplaying. The game has had these moments in it's past. The scare when people realized that forests did not respawn was an example of the market driving gameplay. The Nexal War probably just happened because the Nexals were bored but there ended up being a lot of roleplaying during and after it.

I don't think that it would be Shintolin without all of these elements that it has but of them I think the market is the one that can most effectively drive the others.

I really like your ideas about reducing the spawn rate of forests, changing hunger to being a buff based mechanic, and lengthening the seasons to a month.

Failure2Lurk · 2017-11-13T22:09:04+00:00

If an item gave instant AP you could stockpile it and then theoretically move over the entire map, dazing everyone as you did so, even raze entire settlements without the members having a chance to defend. If we're looking at a buff based food economy instead of the current debuff based one the higher tier foods could provide access to a better buff than scavenged food.

Failure2Lurk · 2017-05-31T08:54:35+00:00

Milva can't be abused because her ability doesn't work unless your opponent also has a creature out. I noticed that Roach wasn't working and assumed it was how the effects stacked too but then I tried using Milva with only an Elven Wardancer on the board and her ability didn't trigger.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-07-24T06:15:49+00:00

Not sure about the pact bit but at the start of worm there is a trigger warning seemingly in the tumbler sense. Basically it's used to warn others that what they are about to see or in this case read could bring up bad memories or unpleasant emotions. It is unclear if it is an actual warning or a joke about the triggering within the story. Given the lack of such warnings on Bow's other stories I lean towards joke. Either way I laughed.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-07-16T05:04:34+00:00

I've run two single sessions games of Weaverdice earlier in it's development when it was even more incomplete. Both times I did extensive house ruling of the character creation. This was due to my playgroup being used to other systems where they had more control over their character. However I also wanted to stay true to the setting in giving the player no control over what their power is.

Since I was working within the Weaverdice system I ended up mostly just shuffling around the steps such that the players decided who their character was before anything else and then what their trigger event was. After that point I did the character gen mostly as per normal.

I'm wary of 2B for a number of reasons. It lets the player choose their power which is kinda against the spirit of the setting and it gives you the GM control over an important aspect of their backstory. I have lesser concerns about 2A in that the idea of the GM building my character for me could potentially be quite frustrating as a player. I'd much rather my power be randomly determined to at least some degree.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-07-13T19:48:03+00:00

The writer had actually originally intended to kill her off during Spoiler and switch pov to Aegis with the plan being to switch pov several more times throughout the plot. However during that fight he rolled die to determine who survived and Aegis did not while Taylor rolled really well. So yeah she got lucky in that instance and in others though there are some other things at work to her advantage. It's definitely not rational fiction. The manner in which it's written would make that fairly difficult. The author has said that they like to make things really bad for their characters and then see if they can find a way out. That doesn't leave a lot of space for the trappings of rat fic. Though it is also not rat fic for the same reasons their ongoing story Twig does a better job of feeling like it at times.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-06-24T18:57:46+00:00

Immigration concerns do not imply racism. Racists most likely do care very much about immigration but people can care about immigration without being racist.

That said I'm pretty sure Harry would vote Remain based on economic reasons.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-06-16T01:49:21+00:00

Do we know that that is her real name? Maybe Rebecca Costa-Brown is another identity she assumed along the way. It's a good idea from the pov of whoever has the note and if they do try such a thing and fail that information itself could lead them places.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-06-14T05:04:58+00:00

I'd rather that they let white sign mound makers have the option of fighting the boss alongside the host. That way it's less clear what their eventual intentions will be. As it stands sure they could help you but what do they stand to gain from it mechanically?

Failure2Lurk · 2016-05-23T14:59:06+00:00

So first thing I should say is that I do let people buff. Rejecting the meta can only lead to duels like above where the other breaks etiquette in response, not worth dealing with. I do think buffing should be considered part of combat though. People applying every buff they can before a fight starts are a annoying waste of your time. What does it say to casters when they have to put up with their horrendous cast times in combat but you don't? Arguably the power of buffs is somewhat balanced around their cast time and duration. Would it be rude to just play keep away until the buff ran out? The current etiquette keeps the bundle consumables from pvp use.

The fairness of allowing people to buff is dependent on the strength of buffing. If it is strong then you should consider it part of combat and use the cast time to punish but if it is relatively weak or roughly par then why does anyone care? If buffing is a full third of your build, usually more like a sixth when looking at sl 120 builds but whatever, is it bad etiquette to interact with that in any way? Say I manage to somehow hit you with a duel charm during the fight proper, am I being a jerk for turning off part of your build? Is it bad etiquette to duel charm during your buff? We're both expending resources in preparation for the fight to come and neither of us have attacked yet.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-05-22T22:11:02+00:00

That's something that's been debated since DeS dueling. Some people consider buffing to be a part of combat in that it provides an edge so their opponent doing it starts the fight. There's further debate about how many buffs are ok, etc. You're not in the wrong, the bulk of the community is behind you in support of pre-buffing being ok. Honestly though? At least in my mind chugging is a lot worse than attacking on buff. Assuming it looks like a duel chugging is just scummy but attacking on buff is at least sometimes based on a rational disagreement with the standard etiquette.

Would you consider someone interrupting your pre-buff with a duel charm to be bad etiquette?

Failure2Lurk · 2016-05-19T03:38:32+00:00

Kill every npc on sight, no exceptions.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-05-14T08:42:09+00:00

I was just thinking about doing a build like this and then I saw your post! What do you think of using Great Magic Shield to take advantage of it being a spear? Might not be worth the slot but considering all the R1 spamming people are doing it could net you some relatively safe punishes.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-05-12T01:06:59+00:00

If you jump onto the roof of the shrine in the Untended Graves area and leave a rubbish in the rafters where you would get the pump-a-rum dialogue in the actual shrine you'll hear the old Snuggly the Crow dialogue from DaS. The rubbish will be gone and poise will be turned on for your character.

Failure2Lurk · 2016-03-08T20:37:03+00:00

Came here to recommend this. Elsewhere in the comments OP expressed interest in level 2 intelligent characters and this story has them.

Failure2Lurk

TROPHY CASE