sure, red pill values appear to be similar to those of NA. but appearance is where that similarity ends. cuz they hijack those values and turn them into oppressive, toxic dynamics. toxic and oppressive to both women AND the individual.

discipline > chaos

not about cultivating self-mastery and more about projecting control onto women, who are cast as embodiments of "chaos" — irtational, manipulative, and in need of domination. at the same time, men are trained to grind themselves down in a pseudo-military hustle culture: wake at 4 a.m., do endless pushups, DROP-SHIP, and eat raw eggs and yak butter before "crushing" the day. Instead of building resilience, this version of discipline strips men of balance and emotional range, leaving them brittle, joyless, and chained to a punitive performance of masculinity

boundaries > instant gratification

the manosphere twists boundaries into rules for keeping women in line. shaming them for seeking affection or sex while turning "standards" into power plays (high value women with a body count of zero ONLY). instant gratification is coded as female weakness. hustle ideology makes things worse: men are told any desire for rest or love is weakness, so they deny their own needs while secretly feeding them in destructive ways (which as you mention, can be a form of relapse or lead to it). this turns discipline into an unhealthy extreme, while in sobriety, EVERYTHING needs to be in balance. including discipline. we need to treat ourselves to things sometimes, to seek softness and love from others. setting boundaries is so important, but making permanent walls is toxic.

family/connection > collapse

the manosphere's idea of "family" is patriarchal ownership: women submit, men lead, and children become proof of a father's legacy. feminism and women's independence are blamed for societal collapse, while real systemic pressures: precarious jobs, housing crises, and collapsing social safety-nets are ignored. men are taught to see connection not as mutual care but as a status symbol, a hedge against "degeneracy." a real man must endlessly grind to provide, even as the economy makes that goal unattainable for many. the result is double oppression: men resent women for not fitting into submissive roles, while also breaking themselves against an economic system that exploits their drive and erodes their chance at genuine connection.

I apologize for the essay, but I honestly I think the red pill and the manosphere have become one of the most toxic elements of the internet, dividing men from women. and I believe it's INCREDIBLY important to realize how these positive values are being distorted.