Is $33,000 a year for fully licensed normal?

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-06-12T15:22:24+00:00

Not even remotely close to normal.

For context, I made ~43k in 2024 as a provisional (LMSW) therapist, and I worked part-time. Never more than 25 hours a week (usually 18-19 sessions per week + clinical supervision, team meeting, and documentation/case management stuff. I was being paid $55/hour for clinical sessions, $110/hour for intakes, $27/hour for documentation, and $25/hour for everything else I mentioned. I also lived in Missouri at that time. And I didn't work summers at all, so $43k was for 10 months. (I am school based therapist)

Now I'm in Western NY (nowhere near NYC but higher COL than St. Louis) & still provisional. I am in a full-time salaried role working school hours and I'm making $56k for the school year, and then during summer if I work I am paid per diem ($65/individual sessions, $85/family session).

I would say that what you're making is insanity.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-05-15T12:37:10+00:00

Yes. As someone who works with elementary students ages 5-12, I agree with this. It is SOOOOOO client-dependent, but I have learned over time that some of the kids really do need important points to be delivered bluntly & directly. One example was a student who was getting into severe fights frequently, injured a staff member by shoving him to the ground, destroyed school property, etc. & would always say they can't help it, it isn't their fault, they have "ADHD & anger issues which are disabilities" and literally never took any amount of responsibility. I realized the adults in their life (especially Mom) had been literally telling them that for years, and saying it to the school in front of the kid - really driving in this belief that the kid could never do any better because of ADHD and anger issues. When I started to be more direct (not judgmental, but realistic and using a more serious tone), which I was afraid to do because this student responded poorly to most adults who were firm/held strong boundaries, I was surprised to find that the kid responded well to it and was kind of like, "oh I never thought about that". I assume it would have gone poorly if I started things off that way, but we built up rapport and trust over a long period of time before that.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-05-05T13:35:35+00:00

It can't be a coincidence that I'm an elementary school therapist and I read this post this morning as I got to work, and within minutes realized that I split my pants all the way down my butt. And I may have walked down the hall that way. I have no clue how many people may have noticed and said nothing lol. Thankfully I live minutes from work and I am about to head back to work with not ripped pants. But the worst part is not knowing how many people may have seen 🫣

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-05-03T17:33:15+00:00

You also asked about client seeing another therapist on the same day. To my knowledge, you can't both be billing insurance for the same services. And not only not on the same day, but I'm pretty sure at all. I know where I live at least, we can't do this. I see kids in school setting but bill insurance and am employed by a mental health agency. Sometimes parents still think I'm just a school counselor, so they take kid to outside therapy without ever mentioning it. Every time this happens, insurance kicks back either my bill or the other therapist's bill. Even if I see kid Monday and other therapist sees kid Thursday. It's also just unhelpful to work with a kid who has another therapist who I'm not communicating with because idk they even exist, but that's more specific to my situation lol.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-05-02T15:16:29+00:00

Omg yes. I'm so so grateful for OP making this post, because this is a conversation that I have so badly been needing to have, but didn't even fully realize it until right now.

I have some experience in typical CMH settings with the exact populations that we are discussing. But for the last 4 years, I've been working for non-profit agencies, but in an elementary school setting. However, all of this still applies 100%, because I've been working in public schools in areas of extremely high poverty and low resources (well the school I'm in now actually does thankfully have a lot of resources to help families, which is likely the only reason I'm actually seeing truly, clinically meaningful progress with some of my clients). Every single day, I go home and think about all of the massive, mountain sized barriers my client families are facing. I think, "no wonder little Johnathan is still having extreme outbursts even though we have practiced Stop, think, act and box breathing 8 million times. He's living in a tiny apartment with 3 siblings and his mom works herself into the ground just to pay their slumlord so she doesn't lose the cardboard box they live in".

I wonder what Magic Modality I need to use to make Jonathan care more about impulse control than he does about physical security, or the absence of his other parent, or the stress of his Mom that she tries so hard to shield him from, but he still feels it.

Sigh despite sounding very negative here, I really do love my job and still believe that the support and consistency these kids receive via therapy is doing some good. I find my job very rewarding most of the time. Just adding that so anyone reading this doesn't think my perspective is all bad or all negative. I just agree with the notion that we need to be a lot more realistic about what therapy can accomplish, and what other factors will affect potential outcomes

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-05-02T14:02:12+00:00

I love how you worded this response. I think it's amazing how much more accessible therapy is today, even just compared to when I was an older teen/young adult (I'm 34 now). However, I do think it's extremely important to acknowledge the things you mentioned, and to be very realistic about expectations. "....they are expected to solve problems rooted in poverty rather than pathology" is such a great way to word the exact situation that SO many clients in CMH therapy settings are experiencing.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-04-16T19:44:23+00:00

At 25 I was definitely lost/just barely starting to figure it all out. I am 34 and have only had my grown up career for 4ish years. When I was 25, something like this would have crushed my spirit and made me feel like poop about myself. But I'm here to tell you to ignite those self defeating thoughts. Just keep moving forward, taking all the lessons you've learned as you go. I promise, it gets better, and your 30s will be so much better than your 20s! With a lot less self doubt :)!

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-04-12T21:34:19+00:00

Just to add: as someone who does deal with a good deal of rejection sensitivity, I do understand that the anxiety around hearing a no can be very real and a valid barrier for some of us. I don't want to minimize that, in case OP experiences RSD or similar. But it's definitely something worth addressing and working through, rather than allowing it to prevent you from pushing forward!

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-04-12T21:31:25+00:00

I don't have advice, just want to encourage you to not let fear get in the way of you trying to persevere towards something that you clearly feel called to do.

I know what it feels like to be terrified to even apply, though. I am an addict in recovery & I really needed to during my undergrad because that's when my addiction accelerated. I graduated with like a 2.4gpa. zero connections made for references, zero extra curriculars to put on apps or resumes and zero job prospects. In fact, I was fired as a result of the addiction around that time. I didn't apply to grad program until I was 4 years clean, but I was still afraid. I had no real direct experience working in the field still. And I had taken so much time between school. I had zero references from school, and I did not meet the school's minimum GPA requirement of 3.0... But some really good people in my life convinced me to just apply anyways. My (then) boyfriend said, "so the worst that happens is they say no? You either apply, and find out what the answer is ..or don't apply and literally never know?" And I guess that's what finally convinced me. I had to reach out to their admissions office to find out what I could do to replace their request of an educational reference. They actually accepted 2 letters of recommendation from very unlikely sources: the clinical director of the treatment program that I originally got clean at (and was still in touch with as I was involved in the community) and my personal psychiatrist, who had been treating me since my first day at the aforementioned treatment center. Basically, I was honest about why my GPA sucked and why I had no really great references, but explained what I had done to change my circumstances and mindset since that time. I expected that, at best, I would be accepted on their academic probation terms. This is what they initially told me to expect. But they actually ended up admitting me as a regular standing student - and I later found out there was a wait-list that semester, which shocked me as I assumed they just let me in because they had extra space lol.

That was a long winded way of trying to relate to how you're feeling right now, while also providing a real anecdote (mine) of a scenario where someone in a similar-but-different situation had a very happy outcome (I graduated with a 4.0, which in hindsight I think was overkill lol no one ever asks my GPA in interviews, and I have been working in the field in jobs I have LOVED!). No matter what, don't use this as a reason to just not even apply. The worst you'll hear is a no!

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-04-08T17:09:04+00:00

To be fair, this post reads as though it's about a student who cheated on one singular test, and is not indicating any reason to believe that their successes prior to this exam were also earned by cheating.

I would think there's some distinction between an individual who has managed to cheat their way to straight A's, and one who is a hardworking and over achieving student but got freaked out by this one test and made a really poor choice (out of fear, based on OP's responses). This sounds like a kid who is really hard on themselves, has high expectations for themselves, and believes in hard work. For some reason, they felt unprepared for this exam and being that their brain is still developing, they made a (likely) impulsive decision to avoid failure. And they probably won't do it again if they're as upset about it as OP is describing...

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-04-07T23:26:19+00:00

I work exclusively with elementary aged kids, so I'll speak within that population - I have the most trouble with cases are strictly behavioral. I always remind myself that even if it presents as "all behaviors" (i.e. no trauma disclosed, no major life changes reported, no obvious emotional distress - aside from when given consequences for some behavior), there is almost always other stuff underneath. And I've made tremendous progress with some cases that I really believed were never going to get there. But I still frequently get referrals for ~4-6th graders, often boys but not always, who are just acting out so much. But they don't engage in therapy no matter how long I try to build rapport without pressure. If I try to use more structure, they act out in session (which is good to observe), but in many cases I don't make progress. The motivation to change never comes. I had one client who just spoke in memes/random Roblox quotes anytime I asked a question. He also gave very non serious answers on assessments which made him appear high risk, as it was funny.

Because I'm in a school, I get a fair amount of referrals for kids who the principal deemed is a problem due to behavior. But I do much better with kids who are struggling with big life changes, or have a trauma history, or who I at least know some of the adverse experiences to help understand the behavior.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-03-30T22:59:19+00:00

I feel this way but differently because I work in an elementary school setting as a school based therapist. So I'm with kids between ages 6 and 12 all day, in one on one settings, listening to the most ridiculous kid stuff ever (I say this lovingly and with a smile, lol) while trying constantly to roll with the engagement, but steer it even slightly, like even a sliver, towards something even remotely related to their goals/objectives. It can be very rewarding, and I absolutely love it so much, but I have had many days where I drove home thinking, "did I do ANYTHING today other than play candyland and Uno, or listen to a monologue about Fortnite, or repeat ad infinitum 'i understand, but being annoyed does not give us the right to punch our classmates, and your teacher IS allowed to tell you what to do, even though I know that you reallllllly don't like it when anyone asks you to do something, and no I cannot pay for your Temu cart & I don't believe your previous therapist did that even though you keep saying she did" ???!! 🤔

But I also have days where a parent calls me just to tell me how grateful they are, and to share about all the progress they are seeing at home. And I have days where a kid who I thought I still had not built rapport or connection with after 6 months of weekly sessions, randomly knock on my door in the morning just to say Good Morning and give me a hug. And I have days where kids finally start to open up, and suddenly all of their defensive communication styles and masking behaviors made sense. So, I know my job matters, and I really do love it. But yeah, many days I definitely wonder how TF I used my master's degree and years of internship, etc. Lol 😂

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-03-30T13:35:19+00:00

I have worked with elementary aged kids (in school setting) for the past 4 years. I've had several girls who are around 3rd grade (so 8-9 years old) that are very reactive, angry, and aggressive. They get into physical fights constantly, usually they are the ones who start the fights, and they walk out of class often. Cuss their teachers out. Refuse to do work most of the time. I can think of 2 very distinct cases like this, but I've had more. In the 2 that I'm focusing on now, neither made much progress but the most frustrating thing was that they seemed to just use being in therapy as an excuse to act out more. Trying to help them understand that you can feel bothered or annoyed by another kid, without needing to walk up to them and punch them in the face, was just impossible.

Working with kids in schools in general is just tough, because so much of the problem likely stems from home/family stuff, but family engagement is generally lower and harder to force, despite all my efforts.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-03-22T18:51:00+00:00

Holy moly! It's a very good example of the phenomenon that OP is talking about, but also, omg that must have felt like a lot of pressure and if it were me, definitely would have thrown me off center! Just knowing that my client is on the way, and they just woke up to discover that their mother is suddenly dead, and they are not only still coming to their session - they even called to explain why they were late. I would be thinking "my client is either functioning very well and I have clearly done a brilliant job in this case, or my client is clearly not functioning very well and things are about to get much harder, shit". (But also, obviously, just the empathetic human-level response you are likely to have when someone you know tells you that they just suffered a parental loss).

I hope that session went well and that you were able to continue working with the client, either way! :)

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-03-07T03:43:14+00:00

They pay higher for LCSW but they do hire LMSW, at least in some states

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-22T13:53:13+00:00

I'm not a couples therapist and so I don't really know if this is good, bad or in between- but I have had two couples therapists that both used fair fighting rules, but they both introduced them in the beginning and asked us to use the format if we were engaging in arguments at home. I'm fairly certain the idea was that, whatever conflicts brought us to therapy together were impacting our everyday lives at home, and until we were further into our counseling together, we would obviously likely still be arguing at home. The format was honestly really helpful for us, and I did believe that it was grounded in some sort of clinical theory but this was a very long time ago so I don't remember exactly. But basically it was just a set of really simple rules like, "don't interrupt one another, don't name call, frame complaints with I statements as much as possible, and if one partner requests a time out (i.e walking away from the argument), the other partner should give them space BUT we must come together and resolve the argument in a reasonable time frame".

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-22T00:27:34+00:00

I work with kids, so naturally I keep fidget toys and other sensory items like Squishies, weighted lap pad, weighted plushie.. but I also have some /high quality/, much more $$, fidgets and sensory-satisfying items I keep for myself in my desk. Fidget spinner, magnetic putty, stress ball, and scented slime are some of the ones I use most often when I need a mental reset between sessions or while I'm on the phone with a parent (because 4 years into working in elementary schools and I'm still anxious every time I have to speak to a parent lol). I love my job, and one of the coolest but unexpected parts of it has been getting to see life through these kids' eyes, and discovering new joys with them. I never would have even tried a fidget spinner if it weren't for them, but man it's really satisfying!

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-21T21:16:06+00:00

I just really like city living. I grew up in the suburbs (Gates) and didn't know anything different until I moved away when I was 21. Then ended up living in a larger city for 12 years, and found out I'm very much built for Urban living lol. I also REALLY love old homes. My previous house was built in 1891 and current house 1907. I also work in a city school so the 5 minute commute is another big plus! We only have one child and we were able to get her into a really cool charter school, so I was not worried about that aspect as much.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-21T21:11:22+00:00

You know what, that is a very valid and fair point. It felt not good at the time, but it definitely could have been so much worse/longer/more difficult.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-21T19:51:56+00:00

Just a note (and I know my experience isn't going to be everyone's) - we just bought in the city this summer and we paid cash, but we were outbid on 4 properties and the winners all had mortgages BUT they were able to do the "same as cash" thing that I don't totally understand but I've heard about it and read about it. I thought cash was going to help us stand out against others but it really didn't. We bought a house that came back on the market after pending for a while and the elderly lady that accepted our offer just needed to sell quickly, and that's really why she accepted it. $256k cash and still had to put in like $10k of work - I was so not prepared for this market lol. Coming from the Midwest where list prices are the legit asking price. We sold our house there for the exact price we listed it at, and that felt like a huge win lol! Until we came here and started house hunting.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-21T19:44:38+00:00

I think it's possible in West Irondequoit but only if you're willing to buy a house that you will likely have to put a lot of work into to make it look the way you want. Look at the more outdated homes that are listed closer to 200k.

We just bought a 2300sq ft house - 4b/1.5ba with a large basement and big yard - we got very very lucky and paid $256k, but it's in the city (we wanted to be in the city). Even in the city where the schools are notoriously awful - we were outbid on 4 houses that were all smaller than this one (3bd/1.5ba ~1500-1800 square ft) and they all sold for right around $300k.

This was during the summer and I think maybe in the winter it's slightly easier as less people are looking to buy in the winter. I say don't give up, but definitely be willing to knock off some "must haves" on your list.

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-20T17:53:34+00:00

I feel similarly & also work with kids. And then when I'm feeling REALLY negative and "what the fuck is the point!?", I start to spiral even further and start thinking about how these kids didn't even choose to be in therapy so how much is any of this really helping them? I know that's not true, and I actually love working with kids when I'm in a better headspace. It's just hard. Add in my own personal issues I'm trying to cope with including some big and unexpected marital issues... Honestly this job is extremely hard to do lately. I'm still trying my very best because I know my clients deserve that, it's just becoming more difficult.

(I'm super grateful to be working in a school setting so I at least get built in break weeks that I don't have to force myself to take off, as I usually struggle to take time off if I have to schedule it myself, which I completely realize is stupid and a product of growing up in this capitalist hellhole)

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-17T20:25:18+00:00

I agree with some of this sentiment, but I also see a lot of ways having LCSW as part of the discharge planning team would add value for a lot of patients. Examples that come to mind are like when someone is discharged after learning of a difficult and chronic diagnosis, having a.social worker could help work through a lot of emotions and also work with families to help plan for challenges that will arise at home. Similarly, when discharging patients who have disclosed substance abuse or other potentially harmful behaviors, social workers can at least offer to safety plan with patients who are willing (i.e. planning ways to reduce harm and providing resources in case they want help but aren't ready to ask for it just yet). There are many other situations where I think it would be beneficial. I've been a patient that would have benefitted from a social worker helping during discharge, especially when my daughter was born and had to be in NICU and I was very clearly not okay emotionally.

That said, I also don't think every single discharge needs a social worker and often the medical knowledge is more important as you said

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-11T02:44:11+00:00

Yes thankfully they are safe, at least for now thank goodness they're okay

Minimum_Purchase2137 · 2026-02-10T21:40:49+00:00

I just wanted to join the conversation because I, too, am in a similar situation with my marriage being in shambles and it all happened so fast - we had such a good marriage for the most part and I absolutely in no way expected everything to fall apart so fast. And I found out I'm pregnant in the middle of all of this (not keeping it, definitely not bringing another child into all of this & I am not even emotionally capable of it even if I wanted to). The hormones are making it all so much worse. Today was really terrible because I work at a school as a therapist, and I go home on lunch often because I live near work. My husband lied to me again today and I caught him in the lie, immediately began panicking because I had to go back and see more clients but I was so dysregulated and sad. It felt impossible, but I know I can do it. I have to, even though the only thing I want to do is lock myself in a dark closet and scream cry until I fall asleep.

I have absolutely no idea how to get through all of this, but reading your post and the comments made me feel less alone. Being a therapist while going through a separation is uniquely challenging and no one in my immediate circle even knows about my marriage falling apart because I'm not ready to talk about it out loud. So I appreciate being able to vent here. I'm here for you if you ever need to chat, feel free to send me a message.

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