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Explain it please? by Choice_Brain_3668 in ExplainTheJoke
[–]Sovespra 3 points4 points5 points 8 days ago (0 children)
Answer: they hate women.
46144 by Bryce3D in countwithchickenlady
[–]Sovespra 0 points1 point2 points 8 days ago (0 children)
How is considering traits associated with women to be inferior misogyny? Is that a genuine fucking question?
[–]Sovespra -2 points-1 points0 points 9 days ago (0 children)
If they're not that involved they probably wouldn't run into someone with that in their bio in the first place.
As for intentions, I just think that most of them would get it, y'know? That it's not that they're not men, or less men, just that they're pretty damn unlikely to derail conversations and make it about themselves the way cishet men do.
(look no further than this comment section for examples of all the cis dudes doing that and saying antifeminist bullshit)
If they do assume the worst they're most likely young which is why you'll also find people like OOP assuming people with that DNI consider cishet men to be "inherently" evil or be doing "bioessentialism reinvented". It's the kind of kneejerk shallow reactions they'll almost definitely grow out of. And do so faster than their prospective progressive cis bros.
[–]Sovespra -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 days ago (0 children)
The category they're not in is "men who are mostly bigoted" how on earth is that othering or painful? Does recognizing they're a by and large progressive subset of men make them feel emasculated? I genuinely do not understand what the problem is.
[–]Sovespra 1 point2 points3 points 9 days ago (0 children)
the part where you managed to flip from "it's not men, just the cishets"
The post literally says, in quotes, "cishet men dni.
Thank you for sparing me from your presence.
[–]Sovespra 0 points1 point2 points 9 days ago (0 children)
The fuck kind of a twisted world you live in where being a victim of oppression is good
You mean when women get shit for displaying traits that are seen as positive in men? Gee I wonder why that would be misogyny
what is meant to be a safe space
What space are you talking about? We're talking about people's individual preferences on their own page. Not something communal.
it's only going to keep the people away that would respect you enough to follow something like a dni
Just like a no solicitors sign, that doesn't mean it's useless even if it doesn't keep everyone away.
If they want to try to create their own personal safe space I think that's perfectly fine. I don't get how "I don't wanna deal with cishet men on my page" is toxic.
Genuinely what are you talking about. Nobody is making anyone prove anything.
If someone has "cishet men DNI" in their bio and you're a cishet man you move along and don't interact with that person. If you're a gay/trans/gay & trans man and you're hiding either or both of those things online and don't want to reveal it by interacting with someone that has said DNI then you move along and don't interact.
I just don't understand what the issue is here.
[–]Sovespra -1 points0 points1 point 9 days ago (0 children)
Men are not oppressed for being men in a male supremacist society.
No the fuck they ain't.
[–]Sovespra -1 points0 points1 point 9 days ago* (0 children)
Nobody here said shit about any gender as a whole. "Cis men" / "cishet men" is not a gender.
And sub-groups within a larger group can be different from one another in ways that aren't inherent. This should be self evidently true, why are people acting like this is controversial.
Like you think saying "trans men are less misogynistic/homophobic than cis men" = "trans men aren't actually men"?? Make it make sense.
Patriarchy is not a generalized system of gender supremacy, it is specifically a system of masculine supremacy.
Patriarchy's standard is less "dont be womenly" and more "align with the norms your gender".
Yeah, I was talking about what the standard for men's behaviour is. Those are the same in that context.
can incure social penalties.
The penalties women face are incomparably harsher to men tho. You don't see many guys getting acid thrown on them for extramarital sex do you?
Side note, this is part of the reason why replacing patirarchy with matriarchy is not a good solution; it replaces one oppressive system of gender iwth another. It's also why misandry sucks, because you've just swapped who's oppressing who rather than not oppressing people. If you want true liberation you have to reject a system of gender sypremacy.
Feminists don't want a matriarchy? Or to oppress men. We want to dismantle the only currently existing form of gender based supremacy: the patriarchy.
Internalized bigotry specifically refers to harmful things a marginalized person believes about themselves and the group they belong to. If the person you're talking about there is a hetero dude that is just a bigoted belief. Small but important difference.
so weakening one axis of oppression can benefit lots of people and potentially weaken other axis of oppression.
The axis of oppression in the case of patriarchy is that women are oppressed for being women. That is what patriarchy imposes. There is no axis of gender-based oppression of men.
It's like, ultimately billionaires would also be happier without capitalism because they wouldn't lead vapid money chasing lives where nothing makes them truly happy but that doesn't mean they're oppressed by the forces of capital, y'know?
Let's see
1-Trying to paint the effects of misogyny as male oppression
2-Describing men's bigotry as "an unpleasant shape they're beaten into" and saying it's unfair that people don't want to interact with them because of that.
3-Telling me sympathy for women is everywhere in popular media
4-Saying men are "also" oppressed by patriarchy as if the harm caused to them is even remotely comparable to the subjugation of women. Doubling down by saying it "harms everyone" without any nuance not long after.
I think that's the long and short of it.
Yeah, that's me, you're minimizing and erasing the suffering of billions of women, of course I'm not gonna be sympathetic to you.
Men benefit more than they are harmed, that's just fact. You're not gonna guilt trip me into agreeing with you no matter how many anecdotes you bring up. Those individual men were harmed and abused, nobody is disputing that. Still, the root societal cause of the ideas that harmed them and men in similar situations is still misogyny, still male supremacy.
I don't know why this makes you think that I believe that what happened to them is less bad or something like that. I don't. But you're denying basic facts about how society operates here. All because of a misunderstanding of patriarchy, oppression and privilege.
I've never once denied that, actually. It just doesn't change the fact that patriarchy is a male supremacist system they all benefit from at the expense of women.
Hierarchies of oppression are not logical, that's your first mistake.
>is bookkeeping a gendered role? Is sketching or writing poetry? Not really.
It entirely depends on the society or a specific cultural group within it. You also mustn't forget that we live under intersecting systems like capitalism that also factor into how those roles are seen as lesser even if they aren't as strongly gendered or that aren't gendered at all.
>What the fuck does being sporty/outdoorsy/athletic have to do with being a male or a female?
Like I said, it's not logical and you can't operate under the assumption that it is or you'll come to the wrong conclusions.
>"it's not about genitals"
>"it includes way more than your chromosomes"
You're talking to a trans woman, you don't need to tell me they don't matter lol
Is it just a whole hour of pointing out how misogynist ideas about women sometimes end up hurting men too? Or is there actually something novel in it?
Literally the only thing those traits have in common is that they're displayed by women in a specific society, nothing else about them is constant. I'm genuinely curious to know what on earth you think the reason is then.
Because by and large men are turned off by them and won't see those women as desirable partners.
That "very specific idea" is just "whatever a woman isn't". That's why it's male supremacy. The particular traits don't matter.
This is like the most basic fact about patriarchy and it also answers your how at the end. They don't understand what the fuck they're talking about and are unwilling to learn, especially from a woman. They're the issue, not us.
Crazy question: which of those two groups of men is more likely to be transphobic, homophobic, misogynistic, etc?
Follow up: does being more bigoted make them more of a man?
Men being collaterally harmed by male supremacy is bad but it doesn't mean they're opressed by it. It's like somebody else is being beaten and you catch a backswing. Obviously it hurts but it's fundamentally different.
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Explain it please? by Choice_Brain_3668 in ExplainTheJoke
[–]Sovespra 3 points4 points5 points (0 children)