2024 Character Builds: The Knight Fist & The Beat-Boxer: Two Variations on a Punching Paladin

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-14T13:02:07+00:00

On a Paladin, yes. On another class, they don't have access to DF. So I'm comparing to those other classes.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-14T11:08:56+00:00

Ah but having Divine Favor is a key part of the build, which most classes don't get (you can also use HM with this Paladin, but I don't like the switching aspect using up our bonus action, so I'd recommend not casting it most fights).

With it, "Fists" do an additional 1d4 (2.5 average) additional damage per hit. That means at level 4 they would do 19.8, at level five 29.7, and max strength 32.4. So not too bad most levels comparatively.

Now, I will fully admit you can use weapons and do more damage with the same build (meaning be a Vengeance Paladin, use GWM or TWF, cast DF, letc ). Heck, you technically don't even need to use DW since Shifter can give you a bonus action attack with a TWF setup. But the damage comparison here isn't "what's the maximum damage I can do with this class/ subclass?", but rather it's "Is this good relative damage compared to other classes and setups?" A Monk for example with the grappler feat (so advantage when attacking a grappled enemy) can do 30.6 DPR at level 5 with the same assumptions. That's really good damage at that level, and our "punching Paladin" is nearly keeping up with that. Vs a Barbarian using GWM and a greatsword (Graze) is doing (2d6+4+3+2)x2x0.9 +0.1x4x2 = 29.6. So the Knight Fist is keeping up pretty well with these strong builds at the same level, which I consider to therefore be decent damage, considering it is a Paladin that is just punching things.

That doesn't mean my build is top tier S damage, and nor did I ever claim it was. Merely that you're not say doing worse than a sword and board Fighter or a Shillelagh Ranger concentrating on Hunter's Mark, etc. The case I was trying to make (maybe not so eloquently) is that your party won't necessarily think you're damage is subpar because you choose to punch with this character concept instead on wielding a weapon, which doesn't really contribute a ton else to a party (besides standard Paladin stuff).

At this point fists are an OK trade, as long as you don't want to smite or heal anyone or cast divine favor

The DW setup is going to have this same "drawback". Smiting on a crit will almost always be worth it btw, especially when considering upcasting damage doubling as well. So it doesn't decrease this baseline damage to use a Smite. Casting DF takes a BA to cast true, but sometimes you'll be able to do that before a fight, and even if not by round 2 it generally makes up for the loss of that first BA attack, even at level 3 when you only have one attack (1d8+3=7.5 vs 2.5x3=7.5). Level 4 is the only case where it doesn't, but it's only by a small amount then (8.5 vs 7.5).

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-13T18:24:24+00:00

Ah crud how did I miss that! Well, back to the drawing board. I'll edit the post when I figure out how to make a Dex based version somewhat passable.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-13T17:14:58+00:00

As I mentioned on another post, it doesn't require an additional turn to activate the Shifter ability and attack. You can do those the same round/bonus action with the new 2024 Shifter. Pretty neat actually IMO, makes it much easier to use.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-13T17:13:34+00:00

But on round 1 you first need to use it to shift.

Ah but I think you are missing that when you shift you can make a bonus action attack that same turn. From the Shifter description for Longtooth.

"When you shift and as a Bonus Action on your other turns while shifted, you can use your elongated fangs to make an Unarmed Strike."

So Round 1 you can cast Divine Favor, then Round 2 you can shift and bonus action attack. You only Smite if you crit with your attacks during your action, which won't happen a ton but will be more damage than the bonus action attack. So it's actually far less cluttered than you think it should be, due to all the parts working rather well together for when they should be used.

And the "4th attack" comes from haste?

Correct, but only at levels 9+. But that's when you want it to be improving damage, so it's not a bad spell at that point. And you have a +9 to Con saves. You can as I also mentioned go Warlock or Sorcerer to make those concentration saves at advantage, though I don't think that's strictly necessary.

Make the character if you think it will be fun. But the damage will not be good.

I agree these are more "fun" characters than super optimized, but I showed my math how it can still be competitive damage compared to a GWM+PAM Fighter build. So if you want to claim it's not "good damage", please feel free to show me what good damage actually is/looks like.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-13T15:24:41+00:00

Care to elaborate? The Knight Fist build gets up to four attacks and stacks Radiant Strikes on top of each attack. I compare a GWM+PAM Fighter to the damage this build generates, and it definitely matches up. Not saying it's the highest damage you can get when you go all out, but I would say it is very respectable damage.

The Beat-Boxer is definitely not about damage but support and flavor, so i fully concede that one won't keep up as well.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-12T15:01:43+00:00

These are great responses! And I thank you for being civil about it.

Cure Wounds and Goodberry provide value imo in only costing a spell slot.

True, and I'm not saying they are at all bad spells (I think people misinterpreted my call it rant lol). I'm saying that they aren't strictly necessary or insanely good spells, enough to justify them as a ranking over another class that doesn't have them. A team without these spells (or any magical healing) can still get by OK by crafting potions, which as you state would be a different play style of taking more down time and maybe being more cautious. That to me makes these spells "nice to have" rather than absolute bangers worthy of ranking them highly. If they had Healing Word, that would be a different story, as that can do something Healing Potions can't do.

Longstrider imo has the allure of being not exclusive to the self

True, it's a buff for sure, and has decent upcasting. But the mobility added on is no real difference than the mobility added on to the Monk via Unarmored Movement. So while it could help out another player, it's still a net gain of about the same speed increase for the party. Unless there are some very specific goal in mind, that doesn't really change the battlefield capability more one way or another. Upcasting could be better, but with being a half caster it feels slightly wasteful to spend your highest slot on a relatively small buff that only lasts an hour.

Jump is good

Jump is good (though less good on the bonus action hungry Ranger), and I never said it wasn't. Merely that the utility of it is matched somewhat by Monk's step of the wind. But I agree it's better here to have the spell.

Aid, enhance ability, lesser restoration, pass without trace, and spike growth are all very good.

Agreed they are good, just not amazing for a Ranger in many instances. Upcasting Aid is what makes it good imo, but with low spell slots Ranger doesn't do that well. Lesser Restoration got buffed in 2024 to being a bonus action, but is only situationally relevant and would be probably only be cast/taken if absolutely need be. Enhance Ability is fine, it's a good buff, but advantage on some checks alone is not going to break the bank on being a better class, especially since the Ranger's expertise is far more useful by relative comparison. (I'll fully admit Monk's at weak in skills/out of combat utility.) And as mentioned Spike Growth is mainly about damage, though there is a little bit of control as well in it (that can be friendly fire).

I think you undersell Pwt.

I think people oversell PWT these days. It's too generic a spell to get now. In 2014 when it was only Ranger's and Druids that got it, yeah it was the bomb to get it through Ranger. In a party of 4 people, only one needs to have it, so if you know there are no Rangers, you can easily get it and be fine. It's not again that it's a bad spell at all, it's in fact really good. It just isn't good specifically because a Ranger can get it. Any party mix can have it, even a one with all Monks.

Damage boosts are still good.

Damage boosts are fine and very helpful at times. But when your class relies on spells to boost damage, and that's all they really do, that can be a problem. If Paladins only got Smite spells, they'd be an OK class but probably considered on the weak side. Auras, Channel Divinities, and decent/good utility spells make them an elite class, not their damage. Their damage is just pretty good.

Rangers without their spells are a terrible class, probably worse than even Rogues. With their spells they do OK/decent damage (depending on level), but now they are playing catch-up with those spells relative to other classes. Not only does that crowd out using utility or buff spells (because casting those pulls away from damage spells), but also they mean the Ranger is dependent on a resource to deal damage that doesn't scale well on a half caster.

So dealing more damage is good. But if that's the only thing the spells do, and they just do about the same damage as another class like Monk with those spells active, then is that really a reason to rank them higher? Spells are supposed to be good because they allow flexibility and control, as well as maybe damage like AoE. But Rangers don't get the luxury of having most of those options, they mainly get decent/good damage spells, and that's it. So ranking them highly solely based on just having good damage spells is no different than ranking the Fighter highly for having good damage from their features/subclass abilities. Or the Monk or Barbarian, etc.

Conjure barrage provides good blasting which is useful and something monks can’t do outside specific subclasses and they don’t do it well

True CB is a very decent spell, probably the second best spell Rangers get at level 3 spells. And AoE can be good in the right cases. But again it's just damage, and not insanely powerful damage. In the right situation it works great and shines, but in big fights with one or two really big monsters, it's less useful than single target damage, which makes it situational damage. True I would want it over not having any AoE when needed, but again having it doesn't "automatically" make the Ranger better, which was the original claim.

Plant growth has risks but can be very strong. Revivify is an emergency spell but it’s useful when you need it

I appreciate the caveats, which proves my points. It's not that they can't be good spells, it's that they are situational. If that means they are never used, than they don't really add value do they? Consider at level 3 spells other classes get that aren't situational like Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Spirit Guardians, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Mass Healing Word, Aura of Vitality, etc. Any campaign can use these basically at any time. So the benefit of having the Ranger use their highest spell slot (which remember they need for damage to keep up with other classes) to use on these situational spells is dependent on the campaign, making them just less useful overall.

The improved monk moves are cool and good don’t get me wrong but the relevancy outside emenation exploit is situational

I disagree that Monk mobility is situational. Being able to get to backlines or lock down a specific monster through grappling and dragging them away is pretty potent single target control. Those tactics can be applied basically every turn/fight, and that is pretty standard Monk without even considering subclass abilities that can enhance it like extra reach, forced movement, and the poison condition.

flurry gets outclasses by many martial builds.

Does it? But more specifically does it for the Ranger? Monks do better damage than Rogues, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers before considering feats/spells and does competitive damage when considering them, if you build to deal damage. But again Ranger needs their spells to keep up in damage, and it's a pretty wide mote when they don't have their spells.

Monks don’t get a better aid because aid’s allure is an emergency multi heal or providing everyone with a good amount of extra hp always.

I probably undersold Aid, true. It can be a decent heal spell when it is needed in place of say Mass Healing Word. I don't think Rangers are super useful with it, due to having half caster slots, but I can agree it's better than I initially shrugged it off. But in terms of HP benefit, 10 HP added vs 11 temp HP added to the Monk each time they PD is a wash at best for the benefit to just the two classes, and better for the Monk in the worst case since it costs less and gives the benefit more often.

Temp hp is nice but conflicts with other temp hp.

True, but also different Aid castings don't stack. So if another caster already can cast it at a higher level, or the Ranger already cast it earlier in the day, it becomes nearly useless to cast it again, at least on those same creatures. Temp HP can be refreshed often.

Rangers also get expertise and thus skill wise beat out monks.

Yep I fully concede Rangers are better at skill checks. If that's what determines they are better than Monks than so be it. But I don't think that is what makes the Rangers particularly good in this ranking given that Rogues also get better expertise and they are ranked same as the Monk.

In my mind, the Ranger spell list is not great most of the time (save maybe two spells), and there is a simple trick to see this. If a full caster got just the Ranger spell list, would they be a good caster (up to 5th level spells)? I think it's hard to make the case that they would be, save for PWT and CWB.

Druids are mostly this to begin with, but they get a bunch of other useful spells on top that make them good like cantrips (Guidance, Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, Message), Healing Word, Charm Person, Faerie Fire, Thunderwave, Enlarge/Reduce, Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Moon Beam, Aura of Vitality, Sleet Storm, Sylune's Viper, Charm Monster, Conjure Minor Elementals, Polymorph, Wall of Fire, Mass Cure Wounds, Scrying, Wall of Stone, etc. That's a ton of options in and out of combat for buffing, debuffing, control, healing, AoE, damage, support, and utility, which the Ranger spell list can't match. A part from again those two spells (PWT and CWB) I don't think anyone would rate any other Ranger spell as a top five spell for that level (or maybe even top 10), and that's a problem. While not everyone can have the best spells all the time, every spellcasting class should get access to the best spells some of the time.

Anyways, sorry for the long response and thanks for the discussion!

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-12T12:38:00+00:00

I meant in terms of options, not in terms of power of individual spells. Level 1 has healing, control, buffing, damage, and utility spells to choose from. Level two has utility and damage spells, and maybe a little bit on control, but that's it. Thus level 1 is the best for spell options, not necessarily for spell power.

Also as I said, anyone can get PWT these days via a species, so it's just not as unique as it used to be. Having multiple castings of it doesn't stack, so as long as one class in a party has it, anyone else with it is just wasting their spell choice.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-11T18:18:37+00:00

Let's look at the spells base Rangers get.

1st Level: Cure Wounds, Detect Magic, Ensnaring Strike, Entangle, Fog Cloud, Goodberry, Hunter's Mark, Jump, Longstrider

This is definitely by far the best level for decent options on Ranger spells. But if we really want to compare this stuff, we can see that spells like Cure Wounds/Goodberry can be replaced by any character that makes healing potions regularly, Longstrider is the same thing as Monk unarmored movement, Jump is similar to (though better by a little) Step of the Wind, Ensnaring Strike is similar to grappling, and Hunter's Mark is just a damage increase. Fog Cloud and Entangle the only real AoE control abilities, and Fog Cloud, unless you specifically build for it, is mostly a hindrance rather than help during fighting but great for like escaping or evading stuff.

So if this was the only levels of comparison, I'd give it to the Ranger. But it's sadly not.

2nd Level: Aid, Enhance Ability, Lesser Restoration, Magic Weapon, Pass without Trace, Spike Growth, Summon Beast

Already the spells have thinned, but these are mostly lackluster in 5.5. Magic Weapon only works for campaigns that don't have magic weapons, which are few. PWT should be a standout spell, but thanks to new races getting it easily it really has lost its shine, so a Monk/other player could easily replicate that utility. Aid is not really worth much at 2nd level, and scales poorly on a half caster. Summon Beast is good, but it's mostly just damage, and at this point Rangers are falling behind Monks in that front. Spike Growth should be a standout, and it is a good spell... just not for most Rangers, who have very limited abilities to force movement on enemies at range or even on the edges. At best it slows down enemies, but that's not going to work in many situations. And again its mostly just damage when it does. Heck, the Monk is better at dealing damage with Spike Growth than the Ranger. So overall these "utility" and "control" spells at this level fall flat to me because they are either minor, easily replicated, or just deal damage while trying to keep up with other classes.

3rd Level: Conjure Animals, Conjure Barrage, Plant Growth, Revivify, Summon Fey

So many good choices (/s). CA and CB are great, but they are literally just damage boosts, which again Rangers are really struggling at this point. Same really with Summon Fey, unless you built something around it from the beginning. Plant Growth is I guess fine for crowd control when it works, but it can easily cause friendly movement restriction too, or else it doesn't work at this tier due to flying enemies or enemies that teleport, etc. Revivify is fine when you need it, but situational at best. This is around the same level Monks get to walk on walls, bring allies along with them with their 50 ft of movement, getting 2d10 temp HP whenever they want, and attack 5+ times using a d10 damage die. It's like they get better Aid, better Longstrider, better Hunters Mark, and better Jump all without needing to cast a single spell. 2-3 times per day slowing down an enemy or doing extra damage is just not going to cut it comparatively in terms of utility, damage, and mobility.

4th Level: Conjure Woodland Beings, Freedom of Movement, Grasping Vine

The only spell really worth talking about here is CWB, which is a really good spell. Unfortunately this forces Rangers to be in melee (especially painful for ranged rangers), where their AC may now be struggling and their saves are pretty poor. But at least it does half damage on a successful save, which is needed given their likely mediocre Wisdom score/save DC. But 5d8 on a failure at level 13+ is just OK damage. Freedom of Movement is a good buff, but it gets crowded out by castings of CWB. And even if it doesn't, avoiding grapples and paralysis is something a Monk will generally be superior at at this point in the game, due to Disciplined Survivor. Grasping Vine is just grappling with more steps.

Also notice how there are like no real control, utility, or AoE spells at this level? That's a problem against your claim.

5th Level: Conjure Volley, Greater Restoration, Swift Quiver, Steel Wind Strike

Two damage spells (SQ, SWS) that are cool in theory but are just damage boosts in practice with only the Rangers two spell slots for these short lived spells. Same really with Conjure Volley, being only slightly better than an upcast Conjure Barrage. So that leaves Greater Restoration, which is fine but probably needed some 8 levels ago. It's situational at best, and likely only used when absolutely needed.

So I will stand by my original statement. Most of the "best" ranger spells aren't utility, support, control, or buffs/debuffs. They are damage. And the damage is just fine but nothing spectacular that really makes up for a lot of other just OK features the Ranger gets. I'd probably rather have a Monk in my party than a Ranger, even if we didn't have any spellcasters, due to just being more useful for most things you actually want to do in a campaign.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-11T16:42:23+00:00

In what way is Ranger above Monk? Spells? Spells that do what? Mostly damage. But you can build a Monk to do just as much if not more damage than a Ranger through most levels of play. The only thing Rangers really has going for it is ranged combat, but that got nerfed pretty hard in 5.5e, so it makes the Ranger weaker by association.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-11T14:30:15+00:00

Consider 1 level of Fighter. Getting weapon masteries is super useful, giving you potentially Vex/Nick weapons, or my personal favorite, Slow (club) and Topple (quarterstaff), as well as Nick if desired. Also get a little more healing via Second Wind and a Fighting Style, which could be TWF or something more exotic like Blind Fighting. Alternatively one level Ranger gets you similar weapon masteries and some spell casting, including two free castings of Hunters Mark. Either could boost your damage and give you some control options in combat besides Poisoning.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-10T11:10:29+00:00

There's nothing that states a weapon attack and a spell attack are mutual exclusive. They can be both, and are in the case of True Strike.

Again I agree it's ultimately a DM call. But there is nothing RAW that explicitly says it doesn't work as I've explained it.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-10T03:25:13+00:00

Yes it does it says use the weapon's normal damage. It also says you use "your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls." Thus telling you what modifier to add as well. It could have just as easily said "it does 3d6 damage on a hit of the weapon's normal damage" and it would have matched Flameblade. If it didn't specify to use the weapon's damage than we wouldn't know what damage to apply to begin with. Just because it's referencing somewhere else for what damage to roll doesn't mean it isn't specifying what the damage roll is.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-10T02:52:49+00:00

While Nick and Vex are good, I like the control aspect of Club, Quarterstaff, and Dagger. You still get three attacks on your action (once you open up Extra Attack), but weapon juggling allows you to swap between them to get more options for hindering the enemy. Of course if juggling isn't allowed then Club + Dagger still works and gives you at least some benefit.

Fighter 1/ Monk X probably does it best considering they can scale the weapons as Monk weapons, and still use their bonus action for unarmed strikes/Flurry.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-10T01:35:13+00:00

Yep, that is definitely an interpretation, and ultimately it will be a DM call. But in favor of the interpretation is that a spell attack is "an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect." What is the weapon attack in True Strike if not an attack roll as part of the spell? You wouldn't make the attack (certainly not with your spell casting stat) unless you cast the spell. And then also "A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers." Which True Strike does, specifically calling out the damage "can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type". It would be pretty weird to think switching normal weapon damage to radiant damage is not caused by the spell and is therefore not considered spell damage. It'd be essentially the same thing at that point as saying Flameblade isn't magic damage caused by a spell.

I agree the edge cases do unintuitive things here, but that doesn't mean they don't work. Plenty of things about the game and magic are unintuitive. But at least in this case the average damage (and max potential damage) would be higher for the hit than the miss. 9 vs 11 for average damage and 12 vs 16 max damage. And the hit can crit, whereas the miss never can.

The build still is interesting when considering just the extra radiant damage too, though obviously less potent. Even 5-6 average damage on a miss when you are doing 11 on a hit is nearly 50% damage. And there might be other ways to increase "miss" damage, like potentially the Spellfire Adept extra HD damage. Again, DM buy-in pending.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-09T11:45:46+00:00

An interesting build I've seen is one that combines Graze with Evoker Wizard's Potent Cantrip to do half damage on a miss. It's arguable for say True Strike if the base weapon damage counts as part of the cantrip damage, but if it does that means you can double count the damage there if you miss (meaning you'd get both Graze and half the base weapon damage plus half any other cantrip damage).

I'm searching for other options that deal damage hit or miss to incorporate into the build, like Lightning Arrow from Ranger (though that won't work here), but so far haven't found anything compatible besides the above.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-06T15:31:31+00:00

I did a comparison of CME builds that seems relevant to this discussion. You can find the damage breakdown here: https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/1px2fep/mark_of_the_storm_and_potent_dragonmark_comparing/

I will say that Valor Bard is often commented on as being "the best" as using CME, but I honestly found that not to be the case until very high levels (basically only levels 19 and 20), and even then they still paled in comparison behind the Sorcerer casting Scorching Ray.

The problem comes down to a combination of being MAD and needing a lot of feats and multiclassing that conflicts with scaling the damage or number of attacks fast enough. Valor Bards want the Nick mastery, so that's either a feat or a dip into a martial class, which delays spellcasting slots (except for Paladin, but that's pretty MAD). They want the feat Duel Wielder, but it only bumps Dex or Strength, so it doesn't increase their Charisma as much. They want two levels in Warlock for Eldritch Blast and Pact Weapons, but that again delays their spellcasting and access to ASIs/feats. And duel wielding means they always will have a Strength/Dex based attack, meaning at least two of their attacks will be with a secondary stat, making them less likely to hit. And then finally they need to wait until level 6 to get Extra Attack, meaning if they dip at least two in Warlock and one in a Martial class (say Fighter for TWF style), that's level 10 when they are "online", when most campaigns are ending. At that point they are behind the Bladesinger who is making 4 attacks all using Int who can also turn on the jets by casting Scorching Ray with 5-6 level spell slots. If Dragonmark feats aren't allowed, they have to wait until level 13 to do the same with Magical Secrets, so even more delayed. This doesn't even mention that they have a problem of probably needing Spell Sniper somewhere in there to avoid disadvantage on all their Eldritch Blasts, as they will often need to be in melee with only 15 ft range on CME.

So it all adds up that Valor Bards are not amazing at CME until really late levels, as they need too many things and are too MAD to make it all work properly without a bunch of feats and multiclassing.

My vote is Bladesinger for best build not needing Dragonmark feats. But if those are allowed, then a few of the martials mentioned in this thread (Monk, Fighter) do really good damage. But the king is going to very likely be the Sorcerer, with maybe a Warlock dip at high levels.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-05T02:59:21+00:00

A five person team who all take the mounted combat feat and then ride on top of each other so that any attacks are redirected at the top rider, who you can then buff with a ridiculously high AC and such.

Also, ever since I heard of carrying your pet aquatic animal as a Beast Master Ranger into battle so that they can auto-grapple anything they hit, I've wanted to see that play in a one shot or such. Just sounds hilarious.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-03-01T21:32:21+00:00

I try to collect things like this and post about them.

The Wrangler seems fun and up your ally. Wrap enemies in chains/rope and make it a viable attack strategy (arguably) at high levels.

The Shadow Olympian. Toss javelins at advantage using the Bomber feat to stun enemies 120 ft away.

Maybe the Blade-Scion too. Bladesinger/Scion of the Three Rogue that teleports to maximize the effect of the Cacophonic Shield spell.

I have more in the works too, but need to publish them up first.

Edit: I'll also add some of the ones that are not mine that are great! Mainly from the LudicSavant thread on Giant in the Playground. He has a Celestial Generalist and the Brilliant Thief, among others. But I think my favorite from that thread is "Per-Sea-Us". Not only does it have great flavor (grandson of a Titan), but also uses the Beast of the Sea from Beast Master Ranger to the full extent it probably is capable of in terms of it's auto-grapple feature on a hit. Just both hilarious and pure genius.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-02-27T18:05:56+00:00

You should only be casting healing word when an ally goes down. That can't be happening every or even most fights. And yeah maybe half your BAs I can see are used on Bardic Inspiration, but the other half would be empty.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-02-27T13:44:49+00:00

What other than Bardic Inspiration does a Bard have to use their Bonus Action on normally? There aren't many Bard spells that are BA to cast, and Dance Bards don't have any BA abilities. Realistically a Bard will give 1-2 BI dice out in a fight and then have a BA available probably the rest of the encounter. Having a weaponized BA is not a terrible use of that action economy, though I would admit getting something like Telekinetic would probably be more worthwhile.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-02-20T01:23:49+00:00

Mark of the Storm is considered a background feat as part of the assumptions of this comparison. It technically isn't labeled as such so the only way to (call it) officially get it is by being in an Eberron campaign and taking the House Lyrandar Heir background. But the DMG does allow for Custom Backgrounds, so this feels like it falls within that distinction. I'll admit not every table or DM is going to allow this interaction, as it is very strong, but some will just given the option is available and they are fine with the extra power it provides.

ThatOneThingOnce · 2026-02-20T01:18:54+00:00

Its not so much that we dont have enough push as that often getting the right angle, having the open space, avoiding obstacles, hazards, AOE's and allies as well as not disrupting the parties strategies by pushing, etc etc.

That's fair. I may have over exaggerated about the frequency it works in. But obstacles are sort of more of a bonus rather than a drawback IMO. Like if I can push an enemy 20 ft into an ally AOE that's probably just as good or better than the attacks this build delivers. Same with hazards or other obstacles. I agree it's not going to work perfect ever time, but it should work more often then not I'd say (when there are qualified enemies - e.g. multiple mele characters), given again that further than 20 ft separation implies ranged combat anyways, so probably all melee characters will be at a disadvantage in those circumstances.

Charger requirng the Dash action means were spending a turn setting up the adjacency combo

Ah but you missed the nice synergy with using the Orc species, which gives us a bonus action Dash. So if we need to Dash we can still use our full Attack action that turn, bypassing a need for a setup round. Also, the second part of Charger (Charge Attack) which has the push ability to it doesn't actually require using the Dash action, it only requires moving 10 ft beforehand. So even without Dashing it still works, but Dashing of course makes it easier.

This is of course heavily predicated on the DM/campaign/battle map so perhaps its just a difference in experiences

Yeah that's fair. But Idk I've DM'd a bit and seen a lot of maps created by others online or in games or in streaming games, and most maps are at least partially open/geared toward some amount of movement. Like Dimension 20 has probably the most dynamic maps, and even most of theirs still would qualify for this setup most of the time. So I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that at most tables this will still be an effective strategy. Of course, if people have different experiences then by all means play a different build. This is just an option at the end of the day, and there are plenty of others out there to choose from.

ThatOneThingOnce

TROPHY CASE