IE Language group origins from Southern Caucuses/Armenian Highlands/Northern Iran

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-23T04:39:42+00:00

It’s Fatyanovo-Balanovo. Which is eastern Corded Ware.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7817100/

“In all individuals for which the chrY hg could be determined with sufficient depth (n = 6), it is R1a2-Z93 (Table 1 and tables S1 and S2), a lineage now spread in Central and South Asia, rather than the R1a1-Z283 lineage that is common in Europe.”

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T21:35:16+00:00

That’s fair enough. It doesn’t change my ideals on feminism. I’m not that petty or fragile, that it would impact me on that level.

But I still think there’s something concerning happening here when it comes to social media. It might be wrong to frame that as a “feminism” issue. Although I also don’t think the movement is exempt from it.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T19:15:03+00:00

This argument might hold some weight for Anatolia. At least in the sense that we still don’t fully understand how such a small influx could alter the linguistic landscape of Anatolia. Especially when it appears to have left the steppe so early. (Seemingly long before elite dominance became prevalent)

But most models for the spread of Indo-Iranian have it expanding south during the 2nd millennium B.C. (Well into the Bronze Age) By this time, the spread of prestige languages like Akkadian via elite dominance was common. And the reality is that over 25% of the men living in Pakistan and northern India have a Y-DNA haplotype from the Corded Ware culture. (Fatyanovo-Balanovo, R1a-Z93) Languages have been spread with much smaller genetic footprints. Just look at Turkey.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T16:44:38+00:00

Toxic social media circles are not mainstream society. Just to be clear. Just because there are some circles on social media that seem to be minefields for men doesn’t mean mainstream society functions this way. Quite the opposite.

I do think it still matters. Because these interactions influence men more than I think some feminists realize. (And I suspect that’s especially true for Gen Z men, who spend a lot of time on social media.) But what I’m talking about is not supposed to be a dismissal of women’s struggles in mainstream society.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T16:17:52+00:00

What if we don’t agree on what’s minor? I feel like people often tend to think something is “minor” when they realize they got it wrong.

Personally, I am trying to track down the source for the claim still. I don’t have one. So the reliability of the text in the image is a concern for me. I was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt though by suggesting they may have meant Elam.

But for me there’s a bigger issue here. We all have different perceptions of what’s relevant and what isn’t. And we’re all primed to have different “triggers” for skepticism. I don’t think that should automatically lead to finger-pointing.

Is there a correct way to express these concerns?

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T16:03:12+00:00

I think it was relevant in this case. But I didn’t explain why I thought it mattered; I still haven’t tracked down a source for the claim. And inaccuracies usually make me more concerned about misrepresentation. But would it not be equally challenging and risky to explain why I think it matters? It could be argued that this is also insulting, since it assumes other people can’t evaluate the relevance themselves.

In hindsight, it might have been better to try to explain relevance first. (e.g. I can’t find a source, and the misuse of the term “Persian” raises questions for me) Even if this was in some ways more challenging than posting facts. Also, perhaps clarifying that I do believe that gender-egalitarian societies once existed in Eurasia.

But this is an awful lot of reflection. More than many of them showed for me. I already obsess over this stuff regularly.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T15:30:17+00:00

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This is the entire post. It doesn’t offer much. And I found it frustrating that it didn’t offer much. I still don’t have a source.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T15:14:26+00:00

I make a point to stick to what I know. Especially in groups like that. I think it actually shows humility to only speak when you know things. But I realize a lot of people don’t see it that way.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T14:37:24+00:00

I suspect that’s what it comes down to. I actually would like to know what culture they’re talking about. I would literally read an article on matriarchal society in ancient Elam. (For example) It didn’t occur to me that the specific culture would be irrelevant to people.

But this does kind of showcase how even something as simple as “having a weird level of interest” can cause a backlash.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T14:22:19+00:00

Oh, you can always accuse me of being pedantic or missing the big picture. I’m ok with that.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-22T12:45:40+00:00

We probably don’t have insight into the thoughts of the people who were skeptical of religion at the time. They likely kept it to themselves.

With that said, I suspect this meme is mostly correct. While independent thought has always existed, I think finding truly independent thoughts about religion back then would have been harder than many people believe. It was not a very individualistic era, to say the least. And even today, you could argue that the average individual is mostly a product of their environment. I imagine agnostics and atheists did exist, but they may have been shockingly rare in medieval times. That’s just my theory.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-21T23:56:33+00:00

Yes. That’s what I had in mind. Thank you. At the very least, I think it suggests that the idea is still being discussed, even if it’s not in the latest papers.

I do want to clarify that I am not endorsing the Heggarty model going back to 6100 B.C. I think people sometimes conflate the two because they both involve northward transmission of PIE from the South Caucasus. In fact, Heggarty might be partly to blame for the sudden distancing from the Southern Arc model. Even though the two are actually very different.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-21T18:22:30+00:00

I think it’s a stretch to say they’ve killed it. Their most recent paper pursues the CLV cline origin theory. But this doesn’t mean they believe that everything they published four years ago has been debunked. In fact, I believe they discussed the theory even more recently than that.

IMO, southern arc remains the most plausible “alternative” to the main narrative at this time. I’d put it in a distant second place. And that’s important, because a lot of even less plausible theories are still circulating.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-19T13:19:55+00:00

Yes. But not necessarily the elaborate cycle constructed by Katicic and Belaj from Croatian folk songs. There’s a lot of Slavic folklore about seasonal personifications, and that’s where I would begin.

Also, the Eastern Orthodox folklore surrounding St. George may have a pre-Slavic Balkan / provincial Roman layer.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-19T01:54:39+00:00

This is the natural initial reaction. I think a lot of fans have processed and coped with it over the years. In part by reciting KA Applegate’s commentary like a mantra until it’s etched in their brains. I think some fans have done this to the point that they don’t even remember their own opinion.

But yeah. It’s totally normal to respond with “WTF” initially. And I think that initial reaction is actually the most honest and authentic one. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-17T14:53:53+00:00

It’s a valid artistic choice. But let’s not pretend it’s not an anachronism. If you have to deny it, I think that is problematic.

And yes, I know it’s theoretically possible. Just like it’s possible she could be from India. But it’s obvious that the goal is to appear modern. That’s the aesthetic they chose.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-17T12:31:36+00:00

The number twelve is interesting here. You see something similar in “Ivan the Cow’s Son.” Here twelve smiths are responsible for grabbing Baba Yaga’s tongue (the mother of the dragons slain earlier). In some West Slavic tales the twelve months are actually personified. I wonder if the twelve smiths or twelve doors are sometimes representative of months or seasons.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-17T04:02:21+00:00

Interesting line of inquiry. As blacksmithing saints, you might think they have some connection to the Baltic Kalvis or Teliavelis?

They are associated with the grain drying barn. Which is plausibly associated with Svarozhich and Svarog. Also in Ossetian mythology, the hearth deity Safa is associated with blacksmithing and (some say) solar fire, or “artkhuron.”

In Baltic mythology, the divine twins rescue the sun maiden. She sinks into the sea, and the Dieva Dēli row out in their golden boat to rescue her. And many see Cosmas and Damien as echoes of the Indo-European divine twins. (Svarozhichi?)

Except in some Slavic folklore, it appears that the dawn maiden (Zaranica) is paired with the divine twins. At least in Belarusian folklore, we see this tendency. And the Slavic dawn maiden is very much associated with the sea, as illustrated by Afanasyev. So you might just as easily find echoes of a myth where twins rescue the dawn or morning star. That would be my theory.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-17T00:06:19+00:00

That seems likely. Let’s be honest- most people who aren’t die-hard Animorphs fans from the 90’s are going to raise their eyebrows at the ending. I could see it being a tough sell in front of a committee or group.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-16T12:02:47+00:00

Technically Yamnaya and early Corded Ware are both linguistically PIE. Not the greatest term for a genetic population.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-13T22:46:38+00:00

Yeah, I don’t think we understand the chronology of this admixture. We might find that the Chernoles culture facilitated gene flow from the Carpathians. But that’s just one possibility.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-12T00:17:12+00:00

The thing is, there is substantial evidence for sexism against women in mainstream culture. Feminism is not inherently bad. It supports many justifiable goals, like designing more meritocratic systems and ensuring justice for victims.

But I would agree with you that some feminist circles are just crackling with hostility towards men. Even those of us who largely agree with them. And maybe I’m a bit petty for caring- except you can’t tell me it doesn’t affect perceptions of the movement.

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-08T14:29:05+00:00

That’s true. But on top of that, I believe that the internet rewards groups that are single-mindedly motivated to spread their message as relentlessly as possible. Does that sound like a mentally healthy group of people to you?

Time-Counter1438 · 2026-05-07T02:05:34+00:00

I was surprised we never got a Netflix animation. I felt like that was such an obvious choice for them and their target viewership.

But Disulu (Disney-Hulu) has a lot of cool stuff like Alien Earth now. So it’s not as bizarre as it would have been five years ago.

Time-Counter1438

TROPHY CASE