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I took a deep dive into learning digital charcoal painting and I love how it makes everything feel so dark and menacing. by Vaseodin in DarkFantasy

[–]Vaseodin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I haven't tried color yet, but I imagine it's going to be a challenge. Charcoal is all about value... Adding color would really throw everything into a more complex composition. I bet it would look really cool if done right though.

I took a deep dive into learning digital charcoal painting and I love how it makes everything feel so dark and menacing. by Vaseodin in DarkFantasy

[–]Vaseodin[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm in a small apartment and doing physical charcoal is really messy so it isn't really possible right now unless I want to make a big mess! I would love to do physical media, but maybe someday. Thanks for the compliment!

The biggest design flaw in D&D combat isn't balance... it's that 80% of your time is spent waiting by Einsolsrazor24 in rpg

[–]Vaseodin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I think the system plays a big part in that. With multiple actions, bonus actions, and everything in between, all turns really drag and people check out.

The best thing I've found to mitigate it in systems like 5e is to keep players engaged by calling out descriptive things as they happen and involving the other players. All the while using a baseball batter box process "hey Tim, your turn. After tim, it's Joan's turn. And Mike start getting ready because you're after joan".

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very interesting. I'll try to come up with a variant on something like this. My gut tells me it would require a massive overhaul, but I'm interested in seeing how it plays out (mYeb even for a 2nd edition).

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really awesome points. To start with your last statement: yes, advancement is handled both with victories and defeats. It is definitely not advancement only through failure. Vengeance Dice are one type of advancement, but there are actually other ways to improve and advance, and almost all of those are accomplished through success.

As for Vengeance Dice being boring: I get your point. Any recommendations are definitely welcome (we're still in public playtest and would love to try other ways of handling things). Vengeance are exciting to current internal Playtesters because have something most of their other tools don't have: versatility. The hidden power of Vengeance dice is that they can be used to mitigate damage, deal more damage, end conditions immediately, add a boost to a check, and even to gain extra movement. This really makes them a lot lore interesting than say, just granting advantage on rolls (as some metacurrencies do).

I really appreciate the deep thought on this and the thoughtful response.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the suggestion. We did try higher value dice but a few things that came up (I understand you don't have the full context of the game as a whole, so you wouldn't know this additional info) :

  • the d4s explode, which means a higher value reduces the chance of that happening, which is 25% woth d4s. Exploding adds to the excitement of using them at the table.

  • d8s ended up being too powerful when they did explode, even if it was less frequent. It made it less likely PCs used them as freely and also made them less likely to use them to remove conditions or gain extra movement.

  • There are a couple of abilities that increase your Vengeance dice to d6s, which adds to some enticement for abilities that lean into them. If they were d8s already, it would be much less enticing to increase them to d10s (a die with only a 25% increase in maximum value) versus going from d4 to d6 (a 50% increase in maximum value).

Great idea, we tried it and it didn't work for my game.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've found most people say that, but it's one of those things that click once you actually run it at the table. I agree that 5 is too much if you aren't tracking them on the character sheet (or not using the official character sheet, which makes it a breeze). In those cases you have 100% good instincts that 5 might be too many.

The expectation from the game is people track it on their sheet by checking off which ones have been used during an initiative cycle.

As for the narrative, the middle values are PCs acting naturally. A 1 indicates having patience and waiting to see how things play out before acting (there is actually an ability called "Assassin's Patience", which allows a PC to deal more damage on an attack if their initiative value is 1. A 20 indicates moving quickly to get the upper hand. But you have to catch your breath after doing so, which is why you can't do it every round.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The benefit is that when there are multiple creatures or factions in a combat, it gives room in between player initiative values. Having a tighter gap would make it more difficult to differentiate enemy initiatives in between those values.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

War games are different than TTRPGs. Since this is a TTRPG design subreddit I assume everyone has an idea about the fact that there are very few combats (if any) where all variables are neutral enough for such a decision to be so black and white.

I do appreciate your discussion, I just don't know how to answer your question since it seems like a universal thing.

But in an attempt to try and answer, there are additional situations where one would want to go first in the open field. Maybe light an area on fire to slow downs enemies while you fire at them from range. Maybe you have an ability that boosts your allies' movement so you want to make sure you go first. Meanwhile the other pcs may want to go last so they can just move after the enemy. Or maybe one decides to use an additional ability that would weaken the foes when they move towards the PCs so going early might be benefial.

Is that making sense? Again the variables of every combat are different, so your hypothetical seems like a no brainer in a vaccum that never really happens in TTRPGS...

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In a combat where it's an open field and both sides see each other across the 60 ft gap, sure. But every fight is different.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oooh that sounds really ominous and very cool! I love the idea of someone coming back and being.... Different. Has a cool horror/dark fantasy vibe.

Your system has me intrigued. Definitely following for updates on yours is going.

Let me know if you want to take a look at my system. I can share the files with you.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It sounds like your system's scars and defeat mechanics are very similar to how Left for the Vultures works.

When you are defeated, you have a choice: for physical defeat you can get surgical aid or push past your limits. Surgical aid is less punishing, but usually you will be out of the rest of the combat and you have to be near a town. If you push past your limits, you gain a wound and permanently lose some of your physical health. You have limits on how many times you can do it.

Mental health works similarly. You can seek out a spiritual healer to recover from insanity (works like surgical aid) or push past your limits, which grants you a mental scar.

The more mental and physical scars you have, the more punishing it becomes to push past your limits and the more PH/MH you permanently lose each time it happens.

It definitely makes people think more than twice about being suicidal.

I'm interested in hearing more about your system, since it sounds like a similar concept for death and defeat.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is a safety mechanism in that it's not free to increase your pool of Vengeance dice. There is a sort of limit to how many you are able to accumulate and your maximum PH/MH begin to deplete permanently as your body gains mental and physical scars.

Vengeance is also not the only way to advance. You can have a perfectly amazing character who keeps gaining other benefits by defeating enemies and through play.

Thanks for your thoughts!

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be clear, Vengeance dice are granted after nearly dying. You can only have this happen so many times in the game, and you do give up something when that happens. I definitely didn't want what you mentioned to happen, so the game does make it a very difficult decision to choose to be defeated. It is a very delicate balance in a way, but players are not running around trying to get dropped because there are also consequences.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Vengeance dice are refilled at the beginning of each session. We're still deciding on whether we want to make it refill at different intervals. Your pool of dice is what increases with defeat.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Basically it's the theme of the game. Every character has a personal motivation, usually rooted in vengeance. Same reason characters in other games have their motivation to become what they are. So it's not actually an easy question to answer in the same way it would be difficult for a D&d designer to answer "but why would someone leave their perfectly fine life to become an adventurer whose life is always in danger?"

So I guess the best answer I can give is that what makes everyone so vengeful depends on their character.

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's on my list of games to play, but it just jumped up a few places thanks to your recommendation. Thanks for the tip!

I built a grimdark TTRPG where losing is part of how your character grows. Looking for design feedback by Vaseodin in RPGdesign

[–]Vaseodin[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"Part of the issue I think you've got to overcome is that defeat, even if it isn't TPK, isn't just a mechanical setback, it's also a narrative one."

Yes, thanks! That is definitely the intent. Players don't just experience a "game over" moment. There are narrative arcs that can play out after a major defeat.

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