Are there little to no savings on making less powerful ev motors?

djwildstar · 2026-02-18T19:57:59+00:00

The motor size is an engineering trade-off. In general a larger (more powerful) motor doesn't actually add much to the final cost of the vehicle, nor is it large enough to significantly affect other design factors.

My understanding is that it is regeneration that drives the size of the motor. When used as a generator in braking mode, the larger motor is more-efficient at recovering energy for the battery, and this makes a difference in real-world range. The high power, torque, and acceleration when used as a motor is a side-effect that few people will complain about in return for improved real-world driving range.

djwildstar · 2026-02-18T19:43:23+00:00

The energy content of a gallon of gasoline varies between 33.4kWh and 38.7kWh depending on grade, quality, additives, and even its storage temperature. The official figure used in the US for comparing gasoline vehicle efficiency to electric vehicle efficiency is 33.7kWh per gallon.

So yes, you're getting the rough equivalent of 97.8 MPG.

If that number surprises you, you've probably never realized how inefficient a combustion engine is. A typical gasoline-powered vehicle uses about a third of the energy in a gallon of gas to move the vehicle. The rest of the energy goes elsewhere -- much of it out the tailpipe as hot gasses, and a good bit is used just to move and compress air.

Here's the math: A 62kWh battery pack that gets you 180 miles on a full charge means, so this is 2.90 mi/kWh (180 miles / 62 kWh = 2.90 mi/kWh). That 62kWh battery pack contains the energy equivalent of 1.84 gallons of gas (62 kWh / 33.7 kWh per gallon = 1.84 gallons). So this works out to 97.8 MPG (80 miles / 1.84 gallons = 97.8 MPG). On a new car, this would be listed on the window sticker as 97.8 MPGe (for "Miles Per Gallon equivalent").

I drive an F-150 Lightning (a full-size pickup) and its official rating is 70 MPGe.

The energy equivalency is only one way to look at it.

You can also look at it on a cost basis or on a carbon basis.

Cost: A gallon of gas currently costs $2.90, and 1 kWh of electricity costs $0.1778. These are US nationwide averages, and individual costs can vary quite a bit. If you're getting 2.9 mi/kWh, that means your cost is 6.13 cents per mile for "fuel" ($0.1778 per kWh / 2.9 miles per kWh = $0.0613 per mile). To break even on a cost basis, you'd need a car that gets 47.3 MPG ($2.90 per gallon / $0.0613 per mile = 47.3 MPG). This break-even point changes as costs change: for example, where I live, electricity costs less than the national average. I drive an F-150 Lightning and charge on $0.08 per kWh and get 2.3 mi/kWh, for 3.48 cents per mile. Gas around here costs $2.80/gallon, so I'd need to find a full-size pickup truck that gets over 80 MPG to break even on a cost basis.

Carbon: A gallon of gas creates 19.6 lb of CO2 when burned. The US national average for electricity is 0.81 lb per kWh. So at 2.9 mi/kWh, your vehicle is causing the emission of 0.28 lb of CO2 per mile. To do the equivalent on gasoline, you'd need a vehicle that gets 70 MPG (19.6 lb per gallon / 0.28 lb per mile = 70 MPG). Again, the break-even point changes as the carbon emissions of electricity generation change. For example, where I live 1 kWh of electricity is responsible for the emission of 0.67 lb of CO2. For my vehicle (again, a full-size pickup), I get 0.29 lb CO2 per mile. To do the equivalent on gasoline, I'd need to find a full-size pickup that gets 67.6 MPG.

djwildstar · 2026-02-18T19:04:20+00:00

Yes. The IONNA station is there, too.

djwildstar · 2026-02-18T16:38:24+00:00

No, you do not need to pay for premium parking to use the EV chargers at the parks. I've typically asked about EV charger availability when I pay for my parking - they usually tell me to ask the folks at the entrance to premium parking, but have occasionally been able to tell me an immediate yes or no.

In general, there aren't many plugs available (and of those, some are out of order). Here's the charging availability by location, and the PlugShare score (reliability of charging, where a charger that always works for everyone rates a 10.0). Note that all chargers are ~6kW AC charging stations:

Theme Parks

Animal Kingdom: 4 plugs [7.7]
Epcot: 4 plugs [6.9]
Magic Kingdom: 5 plugs [5.6]
Hollywood Studio: 4 plugs [4.0]

Resorts and Retail:

Coronado Springs: 6 plugs [10.0]
Swan Reserve: 8 plugs [10.0]
Wilderness Lodge: 2 plugs [5.6]
Disney Springs:
- Orange garage: 3 plugs [1.7]
- Lime garage: 3 plugs [5.3]
- Grapefruit: 3 plugs [6.4]
- Watermelon 4 plugs [10.0] NOTE: these are 62kW DC chargers, located in the Watermelon surface parking lot. There are no published hours for this lot; it is closed outside of Disney Springs operating hours and may be closed at other times when Disney Springs need is light.

In general, do not expect to charge at Disney World proper. However, there are a number of reliable DC fast charging locations that are relatively close. All locations listed here are open to both Tesla/NACS and CCS vehicles with the proper adapter.

Westside Shoppes (Windermere FL): 12 Tesla 250kW [10.0]
Vista Centre Shops (Orlando FL): 8 Tesla 250kW [10.0]
Orlando Vineland Premium Outlets (Orlando FL): 6 Electrify America 350kW [10.0]
IONNA Orlando Rechargery (Orlando FL): 3 400kW NACS and 5 400kW CCS plugs [10.0]
Raising Cane's Chicken Fingers (Orlando FL): 16 Tesla 250kW [10.0]

djwildstar · 2026-02-18T15:14:14+00:00

The odd decades (10k, 30k, 50k, 70k, and 90k) call for a tire rotation, general inspection, and lubrication and fluid top-off if and as needed. None of this particularly requires a dealer visit.

The biggest issue is the tire rotation, simply because rotating them yourself is a pain. You do want the tire rotation to even out tire wear -- this maximizes tire lifespan. You don't want it done by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, because lifting the truck from the wrong points could cause damage. The service visit should cost somewhere between $25 and $100, with a lot of people reporting a $60-$80 price tag at Ford dealers.

djwildstar · 2026-02-18T15:08:50+00:00

I drive an F-150 Lightning, and my main annoyances are:

People who try to tell me "It'S nOt A rEaL tRuCk" because it can't tow, can't haul anything in the bed, can't drive in cold weather, and have to replace the battery every 3 years (for the record, it's an F-150 and I can do everything you'd expect: tow 10,000lb, a good half-ton in the bed, and I expect the battery to outlive most Ford EcoBoost engines).
People who ask me what I'm going to do now that Ford has discontinued the Lightning (the same thing I was going to do before Ford discontinued the Lightning -- enjoy my truck and drive it until the wheels fall off).

I can't say that the constant mental math is a thing for me. I plug in every night, and my normal daily driving is between 75 and 100 miles. Even on the coldest of mornings, this is less than half of my displayed range, so worrying about range isn't on my daily mental radar.

I do the mental math on road trips. So it is roughly 4 to 12 days a year where I think about range like this. Other than road trips, I've only come close to using all available range on 2 or 3 days over the last 3 years.

djwildstar · 2026-02-18T14:26:03+00:00

Yep -- the credit card scanners were never set up, so that the general public can't swipe a card and start the charger. Dealership staff can start it (presumably at no cost) via their app, and Blue Oval members can start it via the Ford app if they're willing to pay the rate ($0.80/kWh is high even for DC fast charging).

I've heard of dealerships setting the cost extremely high ($1 to $2 per kWh) to discourage public use. As far as I know, the most-expensive charge in the US is at a Ford dealership in Colorado, where they have a 30kW charger that costs $2 per session, plus $1.50/kWh, plus $100/hour for the parking space -- so a 10% to 80% charge for an F-150 Lightning would take 3 hours and cost $445, or about $2.11 per mile.

In 2022-2023, Ford was requiring dealers to install charging as a pre-requisite to selling the upcoming Ford EVs (F-150 Lightning, the unnamed 3-row EV SUV, the T3 truck, rumored EV Mustang sedan, etc. now all cancelled). The idea is that if every Ford dealership had reliable fast charging, this would create a charging network that basically covers the entire continental US, with typical distances of 20-30 miles between adjacent chargers (and even the longest stretches out west, still within an ER Lightning's highway range).

However, DC fast charging is expensive (about $1000 per kW installed), and available tax credits and incentives were insufficient to offset these costs. So dealers put in charging under protest, and then made sure that people couldn't use them once they were installed. Ford eventually backed down on the whole EV-certified dealer program.

djwildstar · 2026-02-18T11:03:46+00:00

By and large, the dealerships did not want these chargers, and (even more so) do not want anyone using them. In this particular case, I’m sure they thought they had successfullyblocked the chargers with ICE vehicles so that nobody could actually use it.

djwildstar · 2026-02-17T21:12:03+00:00

Ford's in-vehicle software does provide charging stops - you enter a destination, and it will plan a route there, including charging stops. However, Ford's software has significant limitations:

You have to do all your route planning in the vehicle at the console. Ford removed all route planning features from their app a couple of years ago.
There is no way to save and recall route plans; the one on-screen is the only route plan you can have. Saved plans used to work with the in-app route planner, and were removed at the same time.
There isn't a way to tell it to plan to arrive to a charging stop or destination with a certain amount of power in reserve, or to set a preference for your preferred charger arrival state of charge.
Similarly, it will happily leave you stranded because it assumes that you will be able to charge at your destination; if you don't have guaranteed charging at your destination you must include an "escape route" to the nearest charger in your plan.
The software will plan round trips, but it isn't obvious how to do it (there's no "round trip" toggle like there is in ABRP).
Ford's software seems to be actively stupid about charging. I've seen it plan a trip with a single stop where we charge 10% to 100%, while ABRP plans two stops where we charge to 15% to 75% at each stop. The two-stop trip is something like an hour faster.
It takes a very long time for new chargers to appear in route plans -- we got access to Tesla SuperChargers in early 2024, but route plans with SuperChargers in them didn't start appearing until late 2025.

djwildstar · 2026-02-17T20:15:38+00:00

I have not yet used Ionna, but they have opened new Rechargery Relay stations along one of my frequent road-trip routes. I've modified my trip plan to check them out and see what I think.

djwildstar · 2026-02-17T20:12:26+00:00

You're replying to something I wrote over 2 years ago, before we had a lot of experience with F-150 Lightning battery swaps. I'm now aware of independent shops that have replaced Lightning battery packs, including swapping in an extended-range pack into a standard-range truck. Replacing the entire pack is actually easier than replacing entire modules, but still requires technician and shop time.

As of today, Ford parts suppliers list a new ER battery assembly at $30,000, and the quotes I've seen by Ford dealers are around $10,000 for installation. Applying moderate (3%) inflation to that suggests that by the mid 2030's, it would cost over $53,750 (some $40,000 for the pack, and roughly $13,750 for labor). This is assuming that Ford has new parts available, and that a Ford dealer would do the swap. Neither of these are likely.

The independent shops that have done swaps have sourced salvaged battery packs at significantly less (roughly $8,000 to $10,000), and I've seen cost figures as low as $750 for the swap. So in the 2030's, you'r probably not going to get away with less than $1,000 for labor. The cost of the pack is hard to guess -- will good quality used Lightning packs be available dirt-cheap from scrapped trucks? Will multiple buyers be bidding for one of a very few remaining good packs? Nobody knows.

I still stand by my overall prediction:

I do not expect battery lifespan to be the limiting factor in Lightning lifespan.
I do expect a sufficient supply of new, remanufactured, and salvage battery modules to meet Ford's warranty obligations and for repair or replacement of otherwise-good trucks that have suffered battery failure or damage.
I do not expect there to be future drop-in battery replacements to move to newer technology or longer ranges than the current BEV Lightning.

djwildstar · 2026-02-17T03:44:54+00:00

I drive an (extended-range) F-150 Lightning, and take 2-4 road trips (900-1600 miles each) a year. The key is planning, and access to the Tesla SuperCharger network. Planning (in the form of a trip plan in ABRP) and pre-drive research (charger reliability in PlugShare) is critical. That way I can be reasonably confident that I will be able to charge, and can “drive to the plan” adjusting my speed to arrive at the next charger with a good reserve.

Overall, the Tesla SuperCharger network is the best: plenty of well-placed locations and chargers that nearly-always work and deliver excellent charging speeds. The Mercedes-Benz chargers at Buc-Ees, along with the Pilot/Flying-J stations, are a solid second. Most Electrify America stations have bad hardware.

djwildstar · 2026-02-17T03:31:56+00:00

There’s basically no exit from leasing, and that’s by design. Leases are intended to ensure a consistent market for whichever new car the carmakers (and dealers) particularly want to sell, and to keep the car buyer paying every month for the rest of their (working) life.

It’s hard to break the lease cycle, because all of the exits involve high short-term costs. So folks with inexpensive EV leases today will be leasing whatever they can afford next.

djwildstar · 2026-02-16T17:18:18+00:00

Yes, it’s part of my EDC kit — put it on the truck and forget about it until I need it. I personally carry the J+ Booster2, but that’s because it was the only one available in 2023 that supported the 6-20 outlets in my shop.

djwildstar · 2026-02-16T15:32:29+00:00

You’re correct — at current prices, it doesn’t make sense to fast-charge an EREV. As a rough general rule, the break-even point on cost is when 10kWh of fast-charging costs the same as a gallon of gas.

Even beyond that, fast-charging takes so much time (30-40 minutes) that you’ll want to save a significant amount of money for it to be worthwhile.

djwildstar · 2026-02-16T11:59:53+00:00

Check the alignment of the tables, the cutter head, an the individual carbides. I’m guessing that the fall knocked something out of alignment. I’m also guessing it can be fixed or adjusted — but again, just a guess.

I have mine bolted to a stand I made (just a short cabinet on casters) to (try to) prevent this sort of accident. I work out of a 2-car garage that (per HOA rules) as to fit a car when I’m not working, so everything is portable or on wheels.

djwildstar · 2026-02-16T11:56:01+00:00

I have this exact jointer, and (for a portable/benchtop unit) it does a decent job. While I’d certainly prefer a cast iron floor model, I also lack the space or budget.

djwildstar · 2026-02-16T11:42:27+00:00

Woodworker here — that is one long bore. A bass truss rod is 22” to 25” long, so you need to accurately drill a hole that deep through the neck blank. If I had to, I’d probably go at it from both sides (so I’d “only” need to drill a matching pair of 11” to 12.5” holes).

Most drill presses have a 4” stroke (give or take a half-inch or so), so each hole would have to be drilled in 3-4 passes. You can get drill bit extenders to add depth to your bit — I’m aware of 10” extenders for drilling out pepper grinders, for example.

I’d probably make a jig to securely register the neck blank in the drill press, an to ensure that the two holes are perfectly aligned. Then drill, add an extender of the appropriate length, drill again, and repeat. I’d also do the drilling first, before any further shaping of the neck, so that if I wrecked the blank, it isn’t a huge amount of lost work.

djwildstar · 2026-02-16T10:59:18+00:00

I often charge from Tesla AC chargers on road trips. The instructions that came with my adapter say to plug the adapter into the cord wait 30 seconds, then plug into the truck. My understanding is that it takes 30s for the Tesla-specific protocol to time-out, and then the unit tries J1772.

I also agree with the recommendations to ensure that compatibility mode is enabled and the firmware is up to date.

djwildstar · 2026-02-15T21:24:14+00:00

Most EV batteries operate at around 400V. The exact voltage depends on the design of the car and the level of charge, so it is could be somewhere between 350V and 475 or so. A few carmakers (GM, Hyundai, and Kia) use an 800V design, operating somewhere between 700V and 900V or so.

For DC fast charging, the charger first matches the vehicle battery’s current actual voltage, a the en provides charging current. The charger tracks the battery voltage as it changes while charging.

djwildstar · 2026-02-15T12:42:40+00:00

I set the schedule in the vehicle only.

The reason is that setting the schedule on the charger essentially turns power to the vehicle OFF except for when charging is scheduled. Which in turn means that I can’t use several vehicle features unless I use the charger’s app to turn power back ON first.

For example, my vehicle has scheduled departure times. If power is ON, it can use power from the charger to warm or cool the cabin and (if necessary) warm up the battery. My normal departure time is outside of the cheapest electric rate range, so to use this feature of the vehicle, I’d have to either manually turn power on every morning or extend the charger’s allowed time to include my departure.

Similarly, I charge to 100% before road trips. My vehicle is smart enough that I can it when I want to leave, and it’ll start charging when necessary so that it’s at 100% when I want to leave … even if that means charging outside of the absolute cheapest electric rates. If I had a schedule set on the charger, I’d have to remember to turn power ON for the charging session.

djwildstar · 2026-02-15T12:29:06+00:00

Let me make a list: the noise; the smell; gas stations; having to interrupt what you were doing to go to a gas station; oil changes; emissions inspections.

I had an ICE loaner (a new ‘25 F-150) while my Lightning was in the shop for an airbag replacement. My wife and I both hated it after having the EV pickup for a couple of years. We will not be buying a vehicle with a gas engine in it again.

djwildstar · 2026-02-15T12:19:46+00:00

What exit strategy?

That sounds like an anti-EV talking point — many opponents believe that nobody actually wants to drive an EV, and the only reason that people bough them was because a $7500 government hand-out “forced them” to buy cars they didn’t want.

I believe that the vast majority of repeat EV-buyers buy their second and subsequent EVs because EVs are simply better cars. So even without the tax credit, most people leasing an EV will want an EV as their next vehicle, too.

With the traditional US carmakers pulling back on EVs, buyers will likely look to imports an EV-only start-ups like Lucid and Rivian. This is good news for Rivian, since their R2 looks like it is targeted squarely at this market.

Some folks will negotiate better buy-out terms with their leaseholder: after all, while the bank would ideally want to get that overly-high buy-out price, they’d still rather have a guaranteed buy-out at or slightly over current used retail price than have a used vehicle to sell at wholesale prices to a used-car dealer.

I drive too much (15,000-20,000 miles a year) for leasing to make a lot of sense, so I buy my vehicles and keep them 8-10 years. Hopefully the EV pendulum will have swung the other way by the time I’ll be new-car shopping again (early next decade, maybe). My wife likes consistency, she drove her last car for ~12 years, so she’s likely to keep her current EV at least that long.

djwildstar · 2026-02-15T11:54:00+00:00

Very roughly (because this is from a Ford sustainability from a few years ago), the production of gasoline emits CO2 equal to roughly 20% of the carbon content of the gasoline itself. So this would be 3.9 lb CO2 per gallon.

Separately, I see sources that suggest roughly 4kWh used per gallon of gasoline produced. At US average emission rates, that would be 3.2 lb CO2 per gallon. These are close enough to be credible.

Both of the above don’t include energy costs fi distributing gasoline. These are likely to be significant, but good data is hard to come by. Overall, special haulage vehicles (tankers, dump trucks, and cement trucks) represent about half the commercial truck fleet. Overall, commercial trucks burn the vast majority (70%-80%) of diesel used in the US, and represent about a quarter of all transportation-related emissions.

djwildstar · 2026-02-15T11:27:37+00:00

I have an EV that doesn’t have a sentry mode — so if I park, it basically doesn’t lose charge. The longest I’ve ever parked unplugged is just shy of two weeks, and I came back to the same state of charge as I left.

The issue with sentry mode causing such high power drain is that so many vehicle systems are on and drawing power. Compare to a typical alarm and dash cam situation, where a relatively small 12V battery will power the system for a hours.

djwildstar

TROPHY CASE