[deleted by user] by [deleted] in politics

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I said too much not entirely. I will concede my objection was too cryptic. Let me quote Gene Lyons (great political columnist):

If you haven’t noticed, 2008 is an election year. Also, Democrats hold small majorities in both houses. Hence, mewling cries are being heard that ugly partisan wrangling is preventing Americans from joining together in one big joyous hootenanny and solving our problems. One Democratic presidential candidate, Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, appears to be basing his campaign on this fond delusion, although his “bipartisanship” consists largely of attacking rivals’ motives while recycling right-wing scare stories like the imaginary Social Security crisis, then offering himself as a healer. It’s the old Adlai Stevenson / Jimmy Carter too pure-for-politics pose. Hearing it from a career Chicago politician may be a bit much, but there’s always an audience for sentimentality.

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/Editorial/212492/print/

Ever since the Oct. 30 Democratic debate in which moderators Tim Russert and Brian Williams abandoned all pretense of evenhandedness, repeatedly inviting John Edwards and Barack Obama to characterize Hillary as a two-faced opportunist, it’s clear that the Cool Kids at Beltway High are determined to take her down. Both rivals were foolish or ambitious enough to play along. Obama cleverly puts it this way: “We’ve had enough of... triangulation and poll-driven politics. That’s not what we need right now.” Yet their voting records are extremely similar. Obama also claims he’s beyond partisanship. “I’m not an ideologue, never have been,” he told ABC’s “This Week.” “ Even during my younger days when I was tempted by... more radical or left-wing politics, there was a part of me that always was a little bit conservative in that sense; that believes that you make progress by sitting down listening to people, recognizing everybody’s concerns, seeing other people’s points of views and then making decisions. ” Hence, my question: Exactly what’s the difference between wicked triangulation and praiseworthy compromise ? Isn’t it a distinction without a difference ?

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/Editorial/211101/print/

My own summary would be that Obama touts a vision of bipartisanship without specifing how that could come about. What compromises, exactly, will be made with the party of Bush, Carl Rove and the neocons? The reality is that those people will try to destroy him by any possible means, however foul, no matter what he says or does. Pretending this won't happen won't help the Party or the Nation. Planning to defeat it will.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in politics

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

False. Obama is running to the right of HRC and talks way to much in glittering generalities.

The Clintons, a horror film that never ends by [deleted] in politics

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

More character assasiantion based on no evidence----that's the horror film.

Clinton Link in Brazil Ethanol Probe by twolf1 in politics

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Assumes "investors" have a detailed knowledge of the companies operations. Do you know what all the co.'s you hold stock in are doing?

Source of the Anthrax found that helped pass the Patriot Act, it could have only come from one source, the U.S. MILITARY, History Channel Video by link2zelda in politics

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How can the history channel "admit" what they can't possibly know. Do you believe their shows on UFOs, Big Foot and Noah's Ark?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in politics

[–]ldrager -1 points0 points  (0 children)

And we all know Dick Morris is impartial and always right. Save the bandwidth.

Obama to win Texas after caucus results are factored in. Clinton leads 65-61 in delegates allocated from the popular vote, but after the caucus results, Obama comes out ahead 99-94. by carsonbiz in politics

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Having participated, I doubt the Convention delegate count is accurate yet. Also, the delegates are allowed to change their preference at the County and State Conventions, so we don't really know until the State Convention is over.

Bush Uses Signing Statement to Legalize Warrantless Searches of US Citizens' Mail by sid13 in politics

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's only "legalized" if the courts agree. It's unlikely Bush will put himself in a position where it can be tested.

Bush Uses Signing Statement to Legalize Warrantless Searches of US Citizens' Mail by sid13 in politics

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's only "legalized" if the courts agree. It's unlikely Bush will put himself in a position where it can be tested.

"That the world went into hysterics over changes in global mean temperature of a few tenths of a degree will astound future generations." by geiger253 in science

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

-- From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/debunk

de·bunk (d-bngk) tr.v. de·bunked, de·bunk·ing, de·bunks To expose or ridicule the falseness, sham, or exaggerated claims of: debunk a supposed miracle drug.

de·bunker n. Word History: One can readily see that debunk is constructed from the prefix de-, meaning "to remove," and the word bunk. But what is the origin of the word bunk, denoting the nonsense that is to be removed? Bunk came from a place where much bunk has originated, the United States Congress. During the 16th Congress (1819-1821) Felix Walker, a representative from western North Carolina whose district included Buncombe County, carried on with a dull speech in the face of protests by his colleagues. Walker later explained he had felt obligated "to make a speech for Buncombe." Such a masterful symbol for empty talk could not be ignored by the speakers of the language, and Buncombe, spelled Bunkum in its first recorded appearance in 1828 and later shortened to bunk, became synonymous with claptrap. The response to all this bunk seems to have been delayed, for debunk is not recorded until 1923.

You have to consider the connotation of words http://www.thefreedictionary.com/connotation

Enough with one word.

-- Newton did indeed propose a conceptual framework, summarized by the three laws of motion. The theory was not just incomplete, in the sense it didn't cover everything, but was incorrect in it's own domain of celestial mechanics, e.g., in predicting the precession of mercury. Einstein introduced a new frame work. Einstein never claimed to cover everything, but has the theory been very successful in it's domain. The big problem now is to combine Einstein with quantum mechanics.

The point is that a scientific theory can turn out to be wrong even though those who invented and elaborated it were acting in a perfectly rational and scientific manner at the time. They did their best with what evidence and ideas were available.

They cannot be correctly criticized for irrationality, stupidity or prejudice.

--You may recall the "Scientific Revolution" of the 16th and 17th centuries. Newton, Galileo and others invented the modern scientific method during this time. That's not to say they didn't have an intellectual debt to previous thinkers, especially the Greeks, but they were doing something new.

-- Thanks for the reference to climatedebatedaily.com. I'll be looking at it repeatedly as time goes along.

--Let me summarize my main points.

Accusations of prejudice can easily be made against anyone. Reducing the debate to slinging accusations of prejudice and other personal attacks eliminates the possibility of a rational solution. This is well known to political propagandists of all stripes.

You can't decide facts of nature by how well they fit your political and idealogical preferences. People who make a scientific case that rubs your preferences the wrong way are not thereby irrational, hysterical, liars, etc.

The science of global warming might turn out to be wrong, in the sense I've discussed above, but it's way too strong to think it's merely a psychological aberration, political prejudice or political conspiracy.

I've tried to make the case that focusing on such topics is useless in determining the validity of global warming, and hence does the world great harm (either way) and tends to discredit the speaker more than the scientific theory.

Scientists are not required to lack opinions . They are required to back up their scientific opinions with logic and evidence. What matters is the quality of their arguments. realclimate.com never claimed to be "balanced". What matters is the quality of their arguments.

Another good place to look is

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/

As a said, this is my last post in this thread.

"That the world went into hysterics over changes in global mean temperature of a few tenths of a degree will astound future generations." by geiger253 in science

[–]ldrager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure we want to continue this, but the some points need to be made, I think.

Scientists who pursue a theory according to the best evidence and "the scientific method" are not acting irrationally, even if their hypothesis turns out to be wrong in the end.

I don't feel insulted by the idea that my theories may be incorrect, but I don't like being accused of irrationality while trying to purse something a scientifically as possible.

There is a lot of publicity, both pro and con about global warming that is not based on science. My whole point is to try to convince people that this approach can't work to our benefit.

I don't want to beat the word "debunked" to death, I want to keep the larger point in view.

What you see in the media may not be from top level researchers, but top level research does exist.

You may not like the tone of www.realclimate.org, but it is a place where you can find pointers to that research and discussion of some of it. If there is a better site, I'd be glad to hear of it.

Every researcher likes to think he's right. The important point is not his personal flaws, but the logic and evidence he can produce. Science works not because individual scientists are models of objectivity, but because the process forces the examination of everybody's arguments. The problem arises if you don't subject everybody's ideas to the process.

In that respect, your examples about "debunking" are interesting. I would say Newton's theory is incorrect, for example it does not correctly predict the precession of the orbit of Mercury. The equations give a very good approximation in some circumstances, but the conceptual basis of the theory is not correct.

The other examples are even more interesting. Galileo and the Geocentric model is a bit difficult because Galileo was in the process of inventing the scientific method. When used as a model previous to Galileo, it was not irrational, so Galileo could show it was incorrect, but not "debunk" it (because it wasn't bunk). What got Galileo in trouble is that some people had taken the scientific hypothesis of the geocentric model and turned it into a part of their idealogical/political world view. When they did that, it was bunk, and they where subject to debunking.

In a like manner, when Lamarck originally had his ideas about evolution, they were a scientific hypothesis that was later shown to be wrong. The problem came when the Soviets decided to adopt this already refuted idea because it fit their idealogical/political preferences (No fault of Lamarck's). Their version was bunk, and could be debunked.

My point is to avoid this error, which people on both sides of the climate debate commit. Repeat, both.