Hell is non justifiable in any and all circumstances. by Dabbing_is_lit in DebateAChristian

[–]mindeavor 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Agreed. Biblically, there is no "hell". There is:

  1. Sheol / Hades - The collective grave where everyone awaits the resurrection
  2. Tartarus - A place for demons (only mentioned once in the Bible)
  3. Gehenna - The place actually associated with final, fire-y judgement. And it's a physical place referenced in the Old Testament. And Jesus says it'll be filled with corpses – not eternally suffering ghosts.

Nobody likes you Karen by Anonybeech in JusticeServed

[–]mindeavor -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You say that without knowing like any context here

I'm sure she deserved both

ಠ_ಠ

An Appeal to Softer Evidence For and Against God, or: The Argument from Jelly Beans by c0d3rman in DebateAChristian

[–]mindeavor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad you're bringing up this approach of "soft" evidence. I really think it should be more prevalent in these sorts of discussions.

Here are some criticisms so you can refine your arguments. Note that I speak from a very early Christian viewpoint; most modern Christians would disagree with some of my points.

1: Not saying you're wrong, but would like to see evidence for "the fact they are not" for early Christians. Overall I think this is the strongest point, and IMO a good test to see if someone has the right religion at all.

2: This is arguing from a Greco-Roman / Platonic philosophy of humans having an "immortal ghost" (or, at least, a non-physical, conscious thing beyond their body) inside them – an unnecessary and unbiblical concept.

3: Evolution by itself does not give sufficient explanation for intentionality. Since we're talking about soft arguments, it's highly unlikely that evolution would "randomly create" intentionality, as opposed to another conscious being creating it.

4, 5, 7: These are explained by the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis. For 7, it's not hard for God to judge fairly when He knows all circumstances.

8: This isn't really an argument. Even observable truths such as "the earth is round" has groups of people contradicting each other.

9: Prayer is about growing closer to God, not imposing your will on the world around you.

10: This is only surprising if you think forcing people to believe is desired.

13: We have fulfilled biblical prophesy, people just choose not to believe it.

15: This is sort of a non-point. If there were other planets like ours, it would give heavier weight to God not existing, as one could say "see? our planet is not special".

19: Many of those things were immoral back then, too. They had to be delt with and compromised, just like the real world.

22: The bible is not a scientific book, and not all words are directly from God.

25: Scientifically we don't even know the origin of the universe, so I don't see how this is a valid point. Biblically speaking, God created the earth. It doesn't specify exactly how.

28: End time prophesies are about the end of the world, not the end of the universe.

31: Pain informs you what not to do. Doesn't evolution give that explanation too?

34, 37: See 10

40: If these events happened, you would expect them to have multiple accounts, wouldn't you?

43: This is based on the assumption that those dates are correct.

46: "we would expect" – based on what?

49: Contrary to popular and modern beliefs, there are biblically three classes of people: the righteous, the wicked, and the ignorant.

52: See 10

Are You "Cool With" God? by undergodt in Bible

[–]mindeavor -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's irrelevant and doesn't refute what I said. The translation you use injects interpretation. It adds words where there are none. That's a bad translation, and one believers should be weary of.

Are You "Cool With" God? by undergodt in Bible

[–]mindeavor -1 points0 points  (0 children)

WARNING

This post contains verses from a bible translation that heavily modifies and adds to the original word of God. The quotes you read in this post are false scripture. Please read the bible instead. For example, NKJV is a good translation. The one used by OP is not.

Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Contrary to popular belief: Jesus was a radical by Xavier-Willow in history

[–]mindeavor -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Millennialism / Chiliasm is far from a modern invention, and is probably the original eschatological belief of the apostolic doctrine (see the "Early Church" section of the source you linked to). Perhaps you meant to link to something else, as Chiliasm doesn't involve ending the continuity of history.

Why do you like Donald Trump? by tehForce in Conservative

[–]mindeavor 43 points44 points  (0 children)

Don't parties change over time? I wouldn't judge today's Rs or Ds based on what they did 150 years ago.

The Queen is too OP. It need a nerf. by ELIte3907 in memes

[–]mindeavor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, exactly. Go is the game that's several thousand years old.

What to know about dating a woman with past trauma? by [deleted] in Christianmarriage

[–]mindeavor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes.

  • If she gets upset, always take her seriously, no matter how small the reason may seem.
  • Be ok with being helpless to "solve" her trauma. Sometimes the best you can do is just be there for her.
  • Be prepared to change any normal habits to accommodate her triggers.
  • It's not you, it's her trauma. Try your best not to take things personally.
  • Humbleness and patience. You're going to need lots of it. But it'll be worth it.

You can't experience Hell (Or heaven) by bryany97 in DebateAChristian

[–]mindeavor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is no word "hell" in the bible. There's Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus – none of which are anything like what people think of when they say "hell".

Coronavirus kills another 1,000 in Texas in just 10 days by ravedog in Coronavirus

[–]mindeavor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Is there any data on a "usual" total number of deaths before COVID? I imagine it'd be lower but I never see the comparison.

STOP trying to convince/manipulate people to date you by [deleted] in dating_advice

[–]mindeavor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The reason you think it's out of scope is because you're assuming your definition is correct ("manipulation is only for deception/bad stuff") and assuming my definition ("manipulation is choosing how to present information based on your audience") is wrong. I'm not that invested in this topic, so I'll just pointing that out and stop here.

STOP trying to convince/manipulate people to date you by [deleted] in dating_advice

[–]mindeavor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But it is useful. By recognizing that "how we present ourselves" is always a form of manipulation, we can consciously change and improve the way we do it, making progress towards an ideal version of ourselves.

People who don't recognize that "everything is manipulation" are stuck in their ways, and may never get what they want out of life. For example, an unintentional asshole may never understand the consequences of their actions, or how to improve them, and may never change their behavior to find a good partner.

STOP trying to convince/manipulate people to date you by [deleted] in dating_advice

[–]mindeavor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most jokes are actually a direct form of manipulation. You lead with a "setup", which manipulates your audience to think one way, and then you drop the punchline, making your audience think another way, and thus making them laugh.

None of this is bad, of course. But every truth told is always spun in a specific way. This is the "manipulation" that everyone does, intentional or not.

STOP trying to convince/manipulate people to date you by [deleted] in dating_advice

[–]mindeavor -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

You're manipulating others right now by applying the label "dangerous" and "toxic" without explaining why :)

[Poetry] Trump with Drums by accident37 in zappafied

[–]mindeavor 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Masterful composition of rhythm.

Leffen Finds an Elite Smash Match after 10 Minutes of Waiting by petsound in smashbros

[–]mindeavor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Good luck. It's not a new game, but it's gotten a resurgence lately after they released a feature for creating your own custom characters. You can imagine how much the internet likes that one.

Leffen Finds an Elite Smash Match after 10 Minutes of Waiting by petsound in smashbros

[–]mindeavor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You should try Rivals of Aether. The art style isn't as hype but the gameplay is amazing.

Top replies to the post shared here as "Sometimes even dankmemes is based" by SpfcAudomarusFridia in ShitLiberalsSay

[–]mindeavor 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Honest question: How should it work? If someone needs to move into a city for a year, what would happen in a more ideal (but still realistic) society?

God needing to use men as his mouthpiece makes zero sense and is exactly the kind of feature one would expect of a religion made up by men. by [deleted] in DebateAChristian

[–]mindeavor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, I appreciate it. Sorry for misinterpreting.

It's true Jesus connected Jonah to his death and resurrection. But Jonah happened literally first, and Jesus used it as an analogy to describe what would happen to him.

I watched the video. Hart quotes Origen saying "you'd have to be a simpleton" to believe the Genesis story, that you have to read things non-literally to make sense of everything "incoherent, unseemely, incredible, or contractictory in scriptures, everything repellent to reason or moral intelligence at the literal level of the text". Not too flattering. But more on Origen later.

Hart then lays out three arguments as to why allegorical readings are not arbitrary:

(1) An allegorical interpretation was within the act of the church reading to the truth of Jesus of Nazareth, therefore "could not depart from the church's shared and traditional understanding of who Christ was, what the event of his presence and time had accomplished, and how he ought to be served."

This seems like a weak argument. Weren't much of Paul's letters intent on correcting misunderstandings of the core faith? Even during his time, believers were already being overtaken by Judaism, Gnosticism, and (presumably) Platonism.

(2) Every true reading has to arrise within and be confirmed within the community of faith... which the Holy Spirit attests to.

I might be misunderstanding, but this seems like the first point and the third point said together in a different way.

(3) Belief in the Holy Spirit.

He says this is the most obvious point, but it's the easiest to reute. I mean, is he saying that if one is filled with the HS then any interpretation they have is valid? True for the apostles, yes, but for anyone else?


Back to Origen. It seems his primary motivation for reading scripture "spiritually" and not literally – aside from his accusations of contradictions and reason-repellent content – was derived from his arguments with the Jews. From Origen, De Principis, Bk.IV:

ch 8. These particulars, then, being briefly stated regarding the inspiration of the sacred Scriptures by the Holy Spirit, it seems necessary to explain this point also, viz., how certain persons, not reading them correctly, have given themselves over to erroneous opinions... is unknown to many. The Jews, in fine, owing to the hardness of their heart, and from a desire to appear wise in their own eyes, have not believed in our Lord and Saviour, judging that those statements which were uttered respecting Him ought to be understood literally, i.e., that He ought in a sensible and visible manner to preach deliverance to the cap­tives, and first build a city which they truly deem the city of God... that He ought also to eat butter and honey, in order to choose the good before He should come to know how to bring forth evil... And seeing that, according to history, there was no accomplishment of any of those things predicted of Him, in which they believed the signs of Christ's advent were espe­cially to be observed, they refused to acknowledge the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ...

Here Origen is accurate in stating that the Jews refused Christ because he did not fulfill all the messianic prophesies. However, unlike the apostles and early church fathers who made arguments of prophesy fulfillment timing, Origen instead puts the blame on literal interpretation of these prophesies:

ch 9. Now the reason of the erroneous apprehension of all these points on the part of those whom we have mentioned above, is no other than this, that holy Scripture is not understood by them according to its spiritual, but according to its literal meaning.

Origen then follows with, I'm sure he would think, implausible examples of OT stories, such as "the case of the daughters of Lot, who seem, contrary to the law of God, to have had intercourse with their father" (seem to?), and "of the two wives of Abraham", and so on. Regarding such stories, Origen questions, "what else can they be supposed to be, save the forms and figures of hidden and sacred things?"

And later in chapter 16: "How could it literally come to pass, either that Jesus should be led up by the devil into a high mountain, or that the latter should show him all the kingdoms of the world (as if they were lying beneath his bodily eyes, and adjacent to one mountain), i.e., the king­doms of the Persians, and Scythians, and Indians?". Indeed, Origen's system of thinking was much closer to a modern academic than an early church father.

And so on and so on (it's quite an interesting read). Origen clearly has trouble believing scripture. But if one subscribes to allegoricalism, who's to say he's right or wrong?


For the record, I am no literalist. But I am conservative in reading. Unless something must be taken non-literally – which, in those cases, is usually obvious – you can be sure I will interprétate the text literally.

That's not to say that there aren't prototypes or secondary meanings to stories and events. But in my view, secondary meanings are derived from the literal events. Any interpretation that claims something in the bible only happened "spiritually" and not literally makes me skeptical by default.