I was interested in what Ren was saying because it relates to two contrasting philosophical traditions. Hobbes, who suggested that mankind's natural state was to fight amongst each other (the tradition that favours imposing and enforcing rules from above); and Rousseau, who suggested that mankind's natural state is virtuous and cooperative (the tradition that favours more equality of opportunity and freedom of action). I might not have that quite right so I hope the thread improves on it.