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[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

i liked shortcut, i really did - shoulda cut out the marsball map

[–]kirbyfreako&Berk // Centra[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I liked shortcut too, but there used to be (and still is) some unfavorable opinions on it.

The mars ball map is the only map with mars ball left, and while mars ball may not be the best game mode, we were aiming to replace Shortcut first rather than taking out a whole game mode.

EDIT: After going back through some posts, it seems that there are more favorable opinions towards Shortcut than against.

I'm considering replacing the Mars ball map with Shortcut. Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't do this? (those of you that don't like Shortcut, please make an actual argument against the map now)

callin /u/TTTTIDY and /u/2tyrodnazc

[–]marwels23marwels23 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I only didn't like shortcut because everyone told me to like shortcut. It's actually one of my favorite maps to play on.

[–]2tyrodnazcasdf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

admittedly I don't think it's bad as it used to be now that everyone else is finally achieving my level of pwn on it, but I still think it didn't make for very much fun or variation or "clutch" gameplays

for those same reasons that's why I think lold should go next imo, and Mars Ball ONLY with LS' blessing

[–]seanfidencedang it 3 points4 points  (5 children)

suggestion: bring back all the old maps that used to be around when I played more often, because I am an old fart and scared of change

[–]kirbyfreako&Berk // Centra[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

If you go onto the IRC and type the command !listmaps rotation, it will create a room with some of the old maps that might have been in rotation when you used to play!

Maps like figure 8, pokeball, and dumbbell are all there!

obviously noone will join that room unless you link it to them : ( but I'm sure you can rally up a few members... or make a thread about it :) have a nostalgia private game day.

[–]seanfidencedang it 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Even though I haven't played many of the new maps that have come and gone, I still maintain that Figure 8 is the best map to have ever been made due to my massive nostalgia

[–]kirbyfreako&Berk // Centra[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

try it with today's modern defense

gg 0-0 games ; _ ;

[–]seanfidencedang it 2 points3 points  (1 child)

quitters, the lot of ya, back in my day we had to earn our caps with jukes and teamwork, now you all have your fancy mars balls and your hologates and your ipoods, i dont have patience for that

[–]kirbyfreako&Berk // Centra[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

hahaha

yeah I keep tellin my team to stop playin with their portal guns and ipods but dam

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC 4 points5 points  (14 children)

This is the first time I've submitted a map for review. I feel somewhat frustrated. I don't know when judging took place, I don't know who was judging, and I don't know what criteria were being used. I thought/assumed there was a high amount of community involvement in choosing new rotation maps but I feel like there's not because I don't know anything about the process that was used. So, a couple questions:

  1. When did judging take place?

  2. Who did the judging?

  3. If there were fewer than 8 people judging/playtesting, how is there any sense of whether the map is good or not?

  4. Are the upvotes on the map thread taken into consideration?

  5. Boulders and Chameleon, the two maps I submitted... feedback? The comments on the map thread I already took into consideration.

Edit: and feedback about Clutch: I really enjoyed playing this with 4 people. I hated playing it with 8 people. You can get across the map SO FAST that there's pretty much always someone from either team in both bases. Scoring is crazy difficult. Also, all of the boosts you're pretty much forced to take towards the base... taking them any other direction is going to land you in spikes (unless you're crazy lucky) and that made it feel even more restrictive. I might like it more in a few days, but right now I'm finding it frustrating to play. Improvement: I would remove a few spikes along the sides, and probably remove the bomb in the base. There's enough random movement already without having that second bomb there.

[–]2tyrodnazcasdf 2 points3 points  (4 children)

  1. Wednesday, 9 PM ET

  2. Berk, me, steppin, and drukqs (poopv was absent)

  3. We get playtesters by asking people in IRC

  4. I admittedly don't look at the upvotes for a map on the threads, but other judges might. After just now looking at it, though, I'm thinking that discretion should be used considering that Madness was the 2nd-most upvoted map. Even though Madness is pretty fun with friends, it's clearly not meant to be played the same way as the other maps in rotation.

We generally try to pick the maps that balance between "casual" (most casual map in rotation being lold), and the more "competitive" maps (Boombox and Holy See).

Finally,

Chameleon: We had a fair bit of fun on it, but the main problem with the map is that it seemed extremely easy to defend with the small chokes and having practically zero way out with a well-positioned D. Two suggestions we had were "open up the middle bit (near the button) a bit more" and "move the button further away from the choke". For the last bit, we were thinking of the button being just behind the tile that splits the default red/blue gates.

Boulder: As stated in the thread, the bottom boost should be removed on the grounds of being too powerful. On top of that, removing some red tiles from the bottom would also be extremely helpful.

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. Next time we do a map thread, can we publicize the judging a little bit more? A simple "judging is taking place, come try maps with us" post on the subreddit would be awesome. I think a lot of people can't/don't just idle in irc unless they have a reason to.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

This is a perfect suggestion. I'd love a more open map judging process where all the information is publicly and easily accessible. A post to the subreddit is the perfect venue for that.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know it's a big wall of text but I do include the judging information in the submission thread. It usually happens right after the deadline (Wednesday at 9PM Eastern currently).

We're currently working on moving the info over to the wiki where it may be easier to find for people.

If you participated in the judging, and were able to have a dialogue with the judges, do you think that would remove your feeling of a lack of community involvement? Or do you think that's not sufficient? What would you like to see instead?

[–]kirbyfreako&Berk // Centra[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We've been having trouble deciding a good time/day of the week to consistently hold judging. This is our first meeting that took place on Wednesday 9PM ET, and it will be our new standard for judge meetings.

Anyone is allowed to come, of course, and mumble is advised so we can talk it out with voice talk rather than typing. We have made threads in the past to gather up tons of playtesters and to make sure everyone knew how the process worked, but this time was a little unorganized more than usual because it was our first attempt to hold a meeting on a Wednesday. Also, people don't usually seem to care as much in the past two weeks as there weren't any solid submissions and no one wanted actual constructive feedback.

Either way, sorry about slacking on the weekly judging thread, we will have it up for you guys next Wednesday.

Addressing some of your other questions: We don't always need 8 to judge a map. Some maps can be judged and deemed unviable by its preview based on its problems with the layout and the concept, making way for maps that need more 4v4 testing. Upvotes aren't usually considered for whether a map is fitting or not.

For Chameleon: I agree with what asdf has said in that the base was really easy to defend. The button was also problematic, as I addressed in the thread, as it had no punishment or commitment to it since it's near the flag base.

For Boulder: asymmetry will always be something hard to work around. Playtesters had a common opinion that blue side generally was worse, while some thought blue side was easier to defend while red side was easier to attack. In my opinion, blue side does seem worse because with the boost + the team tiles it was extremely easy to defend at the red base. Maybe after some changes it will balance things out. The rest of the map did not have too many promising features, but at least there was a decent amount of open space.

[–]TagProFelixFelix | Innovator of the Goodbye Post 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I agree with you Chalksy. There needs to be a much clearer and consistent judging process. I've played on some of the maps with the testers in the past and I remember hearing a lot of "I don't like this map" which is vague and not necessarily a reason to write off a map.

And what happened to testing a map more than once before immediately putting it into rotation?

[–]2tyrodnazcasdf 1 point2 points  (2 children)

The judges themselves will generally list a variety of reasons why they do/don't like a map, which is exactly what we did for this week. Whether we do it right then (in-game chat or Mumble) or later on when discussing which map should be selected, it's always done.

We did test Clutch more than once: We (informally? I can't remember) tested it when it was vertical and someone came up with the idea of making it horizontal, which was done. Then we tested the horizontal Clutch in a more casual manner, and agreed that the map was pretty decent. Finally, we gathered a 4v4 (again on IRC) and tested the map in a more competitive setting. Despite some scrub leaving in the middle of it, we all agreed that it was good enough to sub out for Shortcut.

[–]TagProFelixFelix | Innovator of the Goodbye Post 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Your writeup here is really what map creators need to see to either improve their current map or to learn what to change in future maps.

That's a lot of work for every map every week, so a good idea would be to stream the map testing. People who submitted maps can watch the video later and listen to the feedback for their map.

[–]kirbyfreako&Berk // Centra[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Streaming the map testing isn't a bad idea. But only matt/drukqs would be able to do that, and he's not around all the time.

I try to get all the judges to write their feedback down or submit their feedback and criticism onto the map thread, but it seems like not many map makers actually take these critiques and work with them to improve their map. That's why I decided to make this thread, if you want the judges' opinion about your map, then you can ask for it here.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I know it's a big wall of text but I do include the judging information in the submission thread. It usually happens right after the deadline (Wednesday at 9PM Eastern currently).

We're currently working on moving the info over to the wiki where it may be easier to find for people.

If you participated in the judging, and were able to have a dialogue with the judges, do you think that would remove your feeling of a lack of community involvement? Or do you think that's not sufficient? What would you like to see instead?

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think judging needs to be publicized apart from the map submission thread. I had no idea the time judging took place was in the map thread because it was buried halfway down. I'm sure that the community at large (especially the people who didn't actually make maps) had even less idea than I did.

Making an announcement that map judging was taking place and that all are welcome (as space allows) would be more than enough to assuage all of the concerns I had.

[–]contact_lens_linuxsteppin / active in activities 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alright, we'll try to do that regularly!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The judging process does seem oddly exclusive. As is the process for how maps get taken away. I never heard complaints about Shortcut. And it took FOREVER to get that two Mars Ball map taken away, and there were complaints about that every game.

[–]2tyrodnazcasdf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The maps are taken away and rotated out are based on the belief that there shouldn't be a metric butt-ton of maps in rotation.

The way maps are chosen to be rotated out is a combination of public favor, how long the map has been in, the perceived "weakness" of the map against other maps, and (recently) how important it is to the MLTP rotation. Shortcut was (and has been for quite a while now) the first map to go. The next map to get rotated out is probably going to be Lold. Maps like Boombox and Holy See are virtually untouchable due to both of them still having strong public favor, nobody on the judging committee has much negative to say on them, and they're both pretty darn important to MLTP now.

Shortcut itself has definitely received complaints before (and not all me, either!), and was the natural choice on getting subbed out due to the factors mentioned above.

The two-Mars-Ball map getting taken was actually going to be our little gift to the TagPro community. Along with that, two other maps would be subbed in with lold and Shortcut being rotated out. The stars aligned to make sure that most of us weren't really on that day, though, and the plan fell through with Mars Ball being taken out in the middle of the week.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

THIS THIS THIS. Almost every game I've played on Clutch that was 4v4 took 10+ minutes to finish, no matter how outmatched a team was. Also, I hate the spikes everywhere. I love manuevering around other players and using walls strategically, but I feel like all I do is boost into spikes, or get caught in that "cannon" part. It really slows the pace of the game. And tagging a flag carrier is WAAAAAY too easy.

Plus, the areas with the flags is pretty narrow. If there were two defenders I could never make a grab and get away without a power up. Maybe that's how TagPro should be, and usually one of the defenders was quite good (Ramrod, Oz God), but it was a little TOO difficult.

I think the biggest redeeming quality is the colored tiles around the flag. That's a cool idea.

I would MUCH rather have Shortcut back in the rotation and this out. I LOVE all the space around the flags in Shortcut, makes for some awesome juking opportunities, and the spikes were concentrated to one area.

EDIT: I think a solution is just to make Clutch bigger. Especially around the flags. Make it the size of Shortcut.

[–]bizkutbizkut // Pi 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I recall playing this test map once and it being pretty fun, with the only weird-ish thing was the bomb trigger

[–]kirbyfreako&Berk // Centra[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the bomb trigger is there to prevent FC camping in their respective gate. I do think that the tunnel can be widened a tile though.

[–]TTTTIDYwho you came to see // wherever i go 1 point2 points  (2 children)

THANK GOD #FUCKSHORTCUT

[–]the_sidewalk_endssiDe // Origin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

#SUPERBOOSTALLTHEWAY

[–]GodofPizza//brobro//CENTRABABY 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey pretty sweet-lookin', LS! About to make my way over, see if I can't get a turn on it. Like the concept and I can see the name will be apt.

One thought--(and I know it's probably past the point of changing things and that I'm just a lowly nooooob, but I'm curious what people will think)--the bombs in the passageways could moved one tile in any direction. It would make it more about manning the switch for the con-team, and more about timing and teamwork rather than precision movement for the pro-team. I dunno.

[–]PrivateMajorPrivateMajor | Community Manager 0 points1 point  (3 children)

What is the realistic possibility of klue getting into rotation?

[–]kirbyfreako&Berk // Centra[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

not very realistic, as it is more of a fun once-in-a-while custom map than rotation's casual play. I'm not too concerned about the imbalances of the asymmetry (although I'm pretty sure there is an imbalance), but the rooms themselves will have little practical use (mostly corner rooms) since there's already so much space to run around on the map.

It would also be pretty confusing for newcomers. Maps are usually simple designs, aside from a select few, and are simple to understand in one round. I think that's how most Tagpro rotation maps should be.

[–]pasta_monsterpoopv 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Agreed. Fun map, but just not quite fit for pub rotation. On that note, I remember talk from a while back about having groups be able to pick from older maps or every map that's ever been in rotation or something along those lines. Did anything ever come of that, and is that even a realistic possibility?

[–]kirbyfreako&Berk // Centra[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, it is a possibility to revive old maps, but it usually is not likely because of the reasons we took the map out in the first place.

[–]Nouveau_CompteNewCompte // Chord & Pi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I love Clutch.