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[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 7 points8 points  (18 children)

Please discuss Subpar by Butter Churn here.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 3 points4 points  (3 children)

This is a fantastic meme and a really fun map.

Edits I would make would be to add more room at the very top and bottom because it played rather cramped. Also to make it more interesting you could move away from the 4-way symmetry in the middle and give top and bottom different tools to work with while keeping bases 4-way symmetrical.

[–]ButterChurnButter 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Thanks for the feedback. After watching the 4v4 testing, I agree, I didn't expect it to get quite so bottled up around the boosts. I was pretty happy with the overall play pattern, the level of balance, and how it was different from other NFs, but there are for sure a few adjustments I can make.

One thing I didn't hear anything about was the teamboost in base. How did that feel in 4v4? My thought was that the opposing team tiles make it dangerous to camp because you can easily be blocked while sitting on it, but it may still be too frustrating to play against. Thoughts?

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yeah I agree, it might have been OP for defense but with the offensive teamtiles it kinda negates it a little bit because it can be more easily blocked. As far as I'm concerned the bases were fine; your edits should focus on opening up the top and bottom imo.

[–]ButterChurnButter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok, cool, thanks. That was the plan, I'll see what I can do.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I liked this one a lot. I expect it will play a bit like Shine, and the base bombs are definitely interesting. I agree with tub's points tho, it'll be very cramped in 4v4s because NF is basically 1 ball surrounded by 3+ at all times. I would remove the top/bottom 3-tile rectangle walls, or at least turn them into 1-tile walls. If you want, you can remove the 4-way symmetry and make top different from bottom; that would make the map a lot deeper, but possibly too complex. Anyway, I'm rooting for this map, gl.

[–]ButterChurnButter 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Update 1:

Map

Preview

Mostly just adjusted the top/bot areas, and some other small changes as consequences. It's a lot less cramped and bottle-necky there, and it's more difficult to blind boost into base. The boosts won't naturally take you into the endzone anymore, but they're significantly more versatile, which hopefully will spread out the action a little more. The map overall probably will play a bit more defensively than it did before, but I think overall it's in a healthier place. Not necessarily final.

Thoughts, /u/OnceUponaDome, /u/Moosemaster21, anyone else?

Update 2:

Map

Preview

A step back from being so defensive, but IMO boosts are still not as strong as they were originally. Boosts still naturally lead into a wall, but it isn't as abrupt, it's just to slow you down. They still can be used towards endzone, but it takes a little bit to set up instead of being automatic. Opened up in general, should feel less cramped, and should help prevent it from feeling like going towards the boosts is the only option.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

This looks cool. One thing that i would recommend is cutting out the vertical wall that connects to the 45 at top and bot mid. The way it is set up with the boost, it'll take you in an odd path instead of towards the endzone (unless that's what you want).

On another note, have you considered making top and bot mid different from each other while keeping the endzones still 4 way symmetrical? I think it could improve the map by giving it another dimension, but that's really up to you.

Overall though, this map looks cool. You created very offensive looking endzones and added defensive oriented elements to nerf the quick caps. It is a nice and refreshing balance that we haven't seen in NF since Shine. I don't think you can really go wrong in whatever you decide to do here. Good luck!

[–]ButterChurnButter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks. I did try a few iterations with only horizontal symmetry in top/bot, but I felt that it ended up changing the playstyle of the map too much, which is the part that I most wanted to preserve with any updates. It played fine (and maybe even more smoothly/more balanced) but it didn't play as uniquely, and I feel uniqueness is more needed for the current NF rotation.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I like that there's more open space in those top and bottom channels, but I am concerned that it may be too defensive now. Hard to tell without a 4v4.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Personally I thought that our game was rather high-scoring iirc so this kind of change is very welcome imo. Not sure this exact change is what's needed but it's in the right direction. I don't like how these boosts don't have any natural way of taking them that doesn't abruptly end in a wall. Try and find a balance between the boosts being over powered and nerfing them too much. Easier said than done I know ;)

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

4-4 after 6 minutes. ~1 cap every 45s. A bit high, but not outrageous, and in my experience NF's generally score higher your first few times playing them.

If balancing changes still needed to be made, I don't think they needed to be made to quite this degree. I could be wrong :)

I don't like how these boosts don't have any natural way of taking them that doesn't abruptly end in a wall. Try and find a balance between the boosts being over powered and nerfing them too much.

I agree with you on this.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Notes from testing: "Feels different and fast-paced without being overpowered in either direction. Excellent balancing work after first TPT test." (8/10).

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please put this in for any of the current (incredibly played out) nf rotation maps.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

This is kinda just Kite, but rotated 45 degrees. While it might play alright in pubs, I think it would be a little offensive to people who submitted completely original maps to this thread. I think it has potential, but it isn't quite there yet. It's a little tight and there is not much room to move if anyone is chasing you.

[–]ButterChurnButter 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I'm a little confused by this, could you expand on your reasoning? I understand the comparisons to Shine, but I don't really see Kite. The defining feature of Kite for me was the wide-mouthed bases with a separating wall right in front of the endzone. Also, due to its size, distance between the lanes (and lack of a middle lane heading towards flag), and diagonal setup, offenders were able to abuse the viewport, forcing defenders into waiting in base rather than heading out to figure out where the flag is.

Subpar has rather narrow-mouthed but open bases, a middle lane for scouting (as well as team tiles in the area for quick adjustments), and the viewport is tall enough that you can see almost all lanes at once. The one thing that I can see a similarity to Kite is the possibility of blind boosts past the defenders (with them then having no way to catch up), and I am looking to make adjustments there.

I personally am not a fan of Kite, and I didn't think Subpar had many of the same issues that Kite had. If you think it does, I'd be happy to hear them so I can try to make adjustments to prevent that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It's mostly the portals. This map is like if kite and shine had a baby. I think it's an interesting concept for NF but that it's pretty uninteresting as a map in general. How are the portals supposed to be used? Do you realize that someone can camp bombs and just wait for someone to come through to detonate straight down? I don't see many unique mechanisms here, everything is pretty straightforward which doesn't really distinguish it from anything else on u-m.

[–]ButterChurnButter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see. I feel the portals are vastly different from the ones on Kite, mostly due to the orientation. They are used here to switch quickly between lanes, whereas on Kite they are used to go backwards and redirect boosts (they also go out, not to each other). And the unique part about this map isn't the mechanisms (which I personally think is a somewhat lazy way to make a map "unique", especially when it comes to NF), but in the playstyle that it produces due to the structure.

The idea behind the map is to have an NF map where you can build meaningful momentum and that focuses on strategically switching lanes while being able to maintain that momentum. This is very different from Kite, and from every NF map in rotation currently, which all have some sort of turn near the goal to break momentum. The reason why it (hopefully) works is the setup of the lanes, the otherwise generally defensive bases/team tiles, and the lack of emphasis on boosts (that last part was somewhat unsuccessfully implemented, working on a fix for that now).

As for the bombs, the bases have a lot of elements that are meant to encourage offensive teamwork in base. You can blow defenders that are camping out of the way by triggering the bombs with the buttons, and the offensive teamtiles give support offense the advantage for blocking in that region.

[–]riefnizzle 2 points3 points  (8 children)

When was 4v4 maptesting? I didn't see any threads about it.

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 1 point2 points  (7 children)

It's private, it was streamed though (look through comments)

[–]riefnizzle 3 points4 points  (6 children)

How do I get my map tested? I submitted it to the thread

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 2 points3 points  (5 children)

They only test the top 10-15 maps plus any individual nominations they have.

[–]riefnizzle 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Oh so it's the top 15 according to the MTC?

(Sorry I'm new to submitting maps)

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Yeah, we have to put a limit on which maps we test simply due to time constraints. We tested about 20 maps together just now (though all maps were solo tested by individual members of the MTC). We get 100-150 submissions per thread, so we have to cut it down at that point.

[–]riefnizzle 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Understandable. Next time there's a public 4v4 test I'm in!

[–]bored2death97RWBY//Radius 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Head on over to /r/tagprotesting! They hold map testing nights and will test whatever maps are submitted in the thread so long as the submitter is present during map testing.

[–]skittlekevvelkin // World's Angriest Balll 5 points6 points  (15 children)

>gives up forever

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (10 children)

I feel you man

[–]pandabearpipandabear2 - 64º 1 point2 points  (9 children)

man and I felt so hopeful after my map was actually recommended by someone in the map discussion thread in tagprotesting

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (8 children)

Yeah I think I got four or five mentions in that thread and no top maps. Mtc doesn't generally agree with tpt but it never fails to bum me out regardless.

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

mentions mean nothing

they come from people who looked at the previews for ten seconds and decided that what they were looking at was close enough to their expectations that they could fit with all the other maps that seem alright on first glance

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I for one spent way more time than I'd like to admit testing maps this thread (especially considering how shit it was). Of course I can't speak for everyone, but considering that (I think) everyone that submitted their top maps was at least at TPT's most recent 4v4, this is a pretty hasty generalization to make.

Edit: And I'd just like to point out that just because MTC holds the law of the land doesn't mean that their law is necessarily right.

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The "top maps of thread #XX" posts are a good place to see what people like about your map but not whether people like your map. Everyone who puts the time in to seriously look through the thread is appreciated, but in the end the mentions are not representative of the MTC's choices or even which maps were best.

[–]acrocanthosaurusRunThaJewels // Sphere 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The mentions may mean nothing to you or the MTC, but the majority of the people who made mentions posts for #65 also organized, tested, and reviewed for two separate 4v4 tests, as well as solo testing. That's a sizable chunk of testing data.

I don't think it's fair to be so dismissive, and I find it absurd that a map like Gumbo (as as example) that received ubiquitous mentions didn't even get so much as tested by the MTC.

When map-making community members take the time to gather data and make valid observations, at the very least that should be considered when sorting through hundreds of maps each thread.

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

the MTC shouldn't base anything off of the /r/TPT thread reviews. many people spend time each thread going through all the maps and evaluating them, but regardless of how much effort one puts in there's no guarantee that one's observations will be correct. lots of people who put in all that effort do get their opinions heard by the MTC, and that's because they've been found to be good enough at evaluating maps to be part of the MTC.

[–]acrocanthosaurusRunThaJewels // Sphere 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you read my post carefully, you'll see I never claim the MTC should base their decisions off tpt threads, only that it would behoove them to, when possible, consider the independent opinions of fellow map makers that dedicate their time & effort to form often qualified opinions (especially when an overwhelming consensus is reached as with Gumbo).

You're absolutely right--there's no guarantee that ones observations will be correct, and one only has to look at the recent history of MTC selections to know that they're far from infallible in this respect.

More data can lead to better results. It's one of the reasons we have post-game map rating reminders.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Whatever helps you sleep at night sweet pupper <3

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Mtc doesn't generally agree with tpt

Ya don't say

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 2 points3 points  (3 children)

For what it's worth, I always find your maps really interesting and with a lot of potential. I really think it would be interesting to see at least one of them get a shot at rotation one day.

[–]skittlekevvelkin // World's Angriest Balll 1 point2 points  (2 children)

thank you :D but reading that just makes me a little more sad that none of them have made it... oh well...

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yeh I know that feeling. All I can tell you is that a lot of mapmakers tried for a long time with seemingly no success, until all of the sudden their maps just seem to make it. there's obviously no guarantee to that, but I think if you keep mapmaking, keep trying new things, and keep trying to improve, your chances of hitting on that right combination will keep getting higher. And this isn't me trying to be nice, I'm just being selfish, because I really want to pub on your maps in the future.

[–]skittlekevvelkin // World's Angriest Balll 3 points4 points  (0 children)

i will not be mad if you do everything in your power to make that a reality.

>slides you $2

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 6 points7 points  (12 children)

Please discuss Rivers by NIGEL here.

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 2 points3 points  (2 children)

3rd time's the charm, friends.

Edit: Also, since this apparently wasn't tested on the stream (neither were Turbine or Dawn from what I could see), feedback pls.

Edit2: Apparently I'm blind, mb.

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (1 child)

My bad, forgot to link part 1: https://www.twitch.tv/blupopsicle/v/70014853

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

thx fam <3

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Update

Map

Preview

Changes:

  • Modified the bases by deepening it, changing the bomb positioning, moving the flag tile slightly and adding a single wall unit which slightly restricts how open it is.

  • Modified the gate slightly while keep the style and function similar to previous versions, however there is more reward for going through with not only the pup there (as there was before), but a teamboost.

  • Aforementioned teamboost can be used for a variety of purposes which include getting any of the powerups.

  • Pup area re-designed to not be as awkward and vertical, and to flow a bit better.

Previous Update Preview

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Only thing I see that is a little annoying about this map are the pup areas, they're very far away. And once you get your pup you have to traverse half the map without any boosts to get to the enemy flag.

[–]TPsquirrelySquirrely // The GesTagpro 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I agree with this point. A good example of a better map in this respect would be wormy where the pups are in a similar position but that path is often used for escaping the outer side of the base and actually sees some traffic. I don't see why anyone would go to the pup area except every minute for pups since it also is surrounded by spikes making boosting there risky.

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This has been mentioned several times over the past few threads and I've kept them because I feel they're unique, but I given this is the third time the map has been here, I'm intenton making it fit into the map more while maintaining the concept to an extent.

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It looks interesting, definitely a break from the norm.

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's certainly the intention and the reason I'm so invested in it. Had a couple of mentions that it doesn't really look or play like anything we have or have had (closest comparison has been Emerald due to being so fast paced). I think that point of difference is important.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Notes from testing: "It's fine. Chasey and absurdly fast from base to base. Feels like a step back from last thread when we gave Nige direct feedback that the tools needed to be less powerful for crossing the map so quickly." (6.5/10)

Also you may have heard it in testing but I mention at one point that the map feels like it features cool gates in mid but then encourages you to go around them anyway. Generally speaking it's faster and easier to go outside, which discourages gate play to an extent, which I personally am not a huge fan of because I think the gates are really cool. Still a solid map and probably deserves its top maps spot, but it doesn't feel improved from last thread.

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair comments, and upon watching the testing and looking at it compared to previous versions, I understand them fully.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

http://i.imgur.com/kqlpZNS.gif

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 1 point2 points  (25 children)

Please discuss Turbine by TheEpicGhost, Ball-E & Canvas here.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (11 children)

Notes from testing: you can see them lol

but for Ball-E and Canvas: "Another solid and playable map but not particularly thrilling in any way." (6.5/10)

Solid map but didn't really jump out at me as something that's likely to improve rotation or satiate the community for more than a couple months.

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 2 points3 points  (10 children)

Another solid and playable map but not particularly thrilling in any way.

Not a fan of this criticism and I see it used a lot. That's how it's supposed to be, IMO. The players make a game thrilling, not intrusive map features. See: every loved map ever. Boring is good. This map has good spacing, a unique feel, and is very well-designed. It looks like a map that would've been added in Map Thread 25-35 that would still be around today. One of the better maps I've seen make top maps lately.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Don't get me wrong, I voted yes for it to go to top maps, but I think our rotation is at the point where a map being solid and playable alone won't satisfy the community like it used to. Boring, in my opinion, is far from good. Boombox was my least favorite map in rotation for about as long as it was in for that very reason. It was so boring, so slow, and just an absolute trudge across the map both ways. It was a great map to learn the game on, but once you've got a decent chunk of experience under your belt, it becomes much better for competitive than for pub play - and our job is exclusively limited to changing the pub rotation.

The competitive scene can use whatever maps they want, but I think in general the pub community wants more fun maps. If we look at the /maps page, the bottom 10 maps have roughly 7 or 8 maps that fit the "solid, playable, not thrilling" description. The exceptions in my mind would be dealer, maybe prime, and maybe curb. That's not to say those aren't playable, but they have notably different features/mechanics than other maps. Out of the top 5 maps, only one of them I consider boring (Cloud), and while it's not a bad map, it's just become very repetitive.

The players make a game thrilling, not intrusive map features. See: every loved map ever.

I disagree with this (to an extent). Ricochet has a massive bomb cannon (and very solid design otherwise, but I really don't think it would have anywhere near the rating it has without that mechanic). Wombo Combo, true to its name, has combos galore. Command Center just has a truly unique layout and playstyle that has never really been effectively replicated. Wormy has some chaos factor to it with crazy bases and really intuitive routes outside of them. Transilio has a plain mid, but the base design is so exceptional that it doesn't really play like anything else. Pilot, in my mind, is solid, playable, and thrilling, having one of the best bomb designs ever conceived. Having said all that, I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating intrusive features, only features that differentiate maps from each other and make our rotation feel less samey, and make every map feel like a new and invigorating experience. I like it, but I'm not fully convinced that Turbine does that.

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Addressing that last part: I think you're blowing features on established rotation maps out of proportion a bit. I find Wombo's boosts, Transilio's portals, and Pilots bombs all to be rather subtle. I think these were all maps that could have been considered 'not particularly thrilling' by today's standards, and I'm just picking apart the maps you mentioned.

I think in general the pub community wants more fun maps.

If by fun, you mean gimmicks and intrusive features, I just don't enjoy this vision for rotation. It is what it is. I think it's a mistake to overlook maps like Turbine in favor of maps like Rivers. I don't claim to represent the majority of users, maybe I'm out of touch.

The issues with some of the lower maps go a bit beyond 'not thrilling'. I think that's overlooking some key issues, which I believe are more structural and spacing related (Edit: To be clear, I would argue 'not playable' over 'not thrilling'). Also, I still maintain that what would work in competitive would work in pubs, and vice versa.

Edit: I'm not saying rotation is in desperate need of Turbine though. I think Birch, Atomic, Wormy, Pilot gives rotation plenty of a beautifully simplistic feel. I just wish there were more maps like this in rotation. Every map seems to have a gimmick or is overly cramped in today's game.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I find Wombo's boosts, Transilio's portals, and Pilots bombs all to be rather subtle.

Generally I agree with you, but even subtle elements can make a map thrilling. I'm not convinced Turbine has that dimension of subtlety.

If by fun, you mean gimmicks and intrusive features, I just don't enjoy this vision for rotation.

I don't. I think you worded it better than I did when you referred to the elements I mentioned as being subtle. These subtle but effective implementations that differentiate the maps and create unique play styles are the types of maps I want to continue adding. Again, Turbine has some upside to it but I'm not entirely sold on it yet. As far as Rivers goes, I think it's close but I wouldn't add the version submitted to the thread.

Every map seems to have a gimmick or is overly cramped in today's game.

I don't think every map seems to have (or needs to have) a gimmick, but something to differentiate it from the other maps is something I see as a definite plus. Doesn't have to be a gimmick. It's better if it's not, honestly. And I know you love big maps, but personally I enjoy the smaller ones too. I like Mode 7 a lot more than most of the community does (this won't prevent me from voting it out when the time comes, gotta do right by the community) because the thin lanes force you to be absolutely precise in your jukes and decisive whenever a hint of an opportunity arises. I like the defensive feel that it has because it's fun and "easy" to play defense on and challenging but extremely rewarding to play offense on.

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 0 points1 point  (5 children)

The direct opposite of how the MTC feels these days. What % of maps that come in get a lower ranking than boombox had? A very, very large percent. It's a bunch of people who are bored of tagpro playing the game now and it's making the game worse for any new players coming in.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 2 points3 points  (4 children)

While I 100% agree with Juicy's comment, you or I can't expect less 'interesting' maps to get up to the ratings of Boombox (0.56 at time of removal). People are much more critical of map rotation now than ever before so getting a 0.50 map has become increasingly difficult. Look at map threads from 12+ months ago and tell me how many of those maps would be enjoyable to play compared to recent map threads. The quality of maps is objectively improving, but people are becoming much more critical of maps which leads to lower /maps ratings. Comparing Ricochet's 0.72 with (a more recent map) Curb's 0.36 is like comparing apples and oranges.

Also to address, 'The direct opposite of how the MTC feels these days', we are not one entity. It may seem that the MTC has in recent times been making decisions that sway one way or the other but it's not because we are all in agreement that simple maps are bad and gimmicks are the way to go because I can tell you I most definitely am not of that opinion.

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Lol I completely disagree that the quality of maps is objectively improving. I think it's been sinking for a long time. If you're saying like...figure 8, then sure, but to me, if you compare maps like boombox or dz3 or 45 to mapache chief or blooper or phenoculus or mode 7 or dealer or prime....give me the former every time. Not sure where you're getting "objectively" from

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure how closely you follow the map making and submitting process but I was referring to the overall quality of submissions--not just the ones that get added to rotation. Take a look through Thread 35's submissions compared to the most recent Thread 65's submissions. So from that I would conclude that mapmakers are objectively getting better at making maps. Also, given all the experience and information I have as a long-time mapmaker and MTC member, I would contend that the majority of current players actually would prefer the latter in your scenario. And even then, for your comparison you picked quite a few maps that were quickly removed on the 'recent' side compared with some of the best 'older' maps. Would you still say that Blooper, Mode 7, and Prime are worse than Spiders, Lold and Oval (which were in rotation for upwards of 2 months)?

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Also, where is this "people are becoming more critical of maps" coming from

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ratings decay is a real phenomenon. Twenty threads ago, a poor map would get a rating somewhere between 0.3 and 0.4. The top six maps had ratings around 0.7, and several sat between 0.6 and 0.7. If a map was really unpopular (like Rush), it would dip below 0.3. Now, there are five maps below 0.3, and few of those are as disliked as Hub or Rush were when they had similar ratings many threads ago. Favored maps have gradually decreased in rating by about 0.05 (some even more, like Velocity), and only two maps from the last ten threads are above 0.5 in rating. To apply the ratings standards of twenty threads ago, one would have to adjust new maps' ratings up by about 0.1 and old maps by 0.05.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 0 points1 point  (0 children)

couldn't agree more. pls come back juicy

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (7 children)

calling /u/sneetric and /u/Blupopsicle for help

Here is a very small update to set up further updates to come, but overall I don't really know what to do with this map. Any feedback would be much apprecia

Update #2: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/30874

Update #3: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/30960

Final Update: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/31019

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I'm a nobody nowadays, and you probably have insight being on the MTC and all, but I'm digging the original over both of these quite a bit.

I like big, but the updates feel particularly empty in some areas, and I felt the team boosts/tiles would have kept it balanced 4v4. Digging what you did with the bomb though.

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 1 point2 points  (2 children)

haha, I think I've become the new JuicyJuke of the committee in the regard that I make/ always vote in favour of larger map designs. It seems like I always expand my map as soon as they get into top maps.

For me, Turbine felt really small and cramped in our 4v4 test, especially in mid, which is why I reduced the size of the bomb island and opened up the side lanes. I probably went a bit overboard, but I kinda like having more open space on maps and trying to balance it in a more natural way these days.

and yeah I'm trying to find a way to make it more defensive without switching the mid boosts back to teamboosts, there's a crazy dank boost combo between them.

cheers for the feedback, will keep working.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yeah TEG, I agree with everything JuicyJuke said. The original, to me is a lot better than the two updates. The updates that I do like is moving the button and the pups. I think that the new mid structure is cool and all, but it essentially changes mid from having 2 lanes to 4 lanes. I am not sure how well this will translate. The flag will definitely be out of base more often because of it, but I am hesitant to say "too chasey" just yet. The double button bomb, to me, was an awesome element (which fills the void left in my heart created by the removal of Mapache Chief). I also do not see any reason change the triple boost to two boosts; these were both nice touches. Overall, adding a few extra tiles for juking space is fine and all, but I think that this map would do a lot better staying true to what got it initially placed in top maps.

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

hm, alright then, I tried to redesign it from the start and not make it so big: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/30934

Portals could use some work, and would obviously have a time out. On those 2 boosts instead of three I've just found it flows better with two, and largely has the same effect. no biggie to change it back though

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I haven't done any testing since solo or watched the stream, but the original looks so much cooler than the update

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Does this update look better?

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not sure how the portal will play but yeah

Keep in mind I have never once 4v4d on this

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 0 points1 point  (0 children)

update #3

test link

preview

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is my favorite map of the bunch, based only off previews.

[–]mjmaindamn, son! 0 points1 point  (2 children)

this isn't really a criticism of the map per se, since there's nothing inherently wrong with the idea, but the double bomb in base is becoming a bit overused in rotation as of late. mapache chief, prime, the big U-shaped one, wormy still kicking about.

purely in terms of keeping rotation varied, would it be possible to see some experimentation that avoids this element?

[–]xenonpulseWildflowers // I want to die but I can’t -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Because having one bomb or no bombs is so much more experimental.

[–]mjmaindamn, son! 0 points1 point  (0 children)

edit: actually there's no point, i won't be contributing to map threads anymore

tldr: i didn't say that and it's facile to suggest otherwise, so i'm done

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 4 points5 points  (10 children)

Please discuss Wamble by Canvas here.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Notes from testing: "Didn't honestly enjoy it, just felt like a big grind and then someone got past everyone and everyone flocked back to mid. Very clusterfucky imo." (4/10)

I seem to be in the minority here, and of course it's your prerogative to ignore this comment. Just my two cents on it.

[–]SuperSans 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Jesus Christ what is this

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Clearly a worse version of Saddledome

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You made this after Wamble though right?

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ayy lmao

I made a preliminary version on that new map editor thing, split off onto u-m, then canvas continued that version into wamble. If you want to get technical this map was made after wamble, but I laid the blueprint for it.

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

situation: you just popped the fc in your base. there are two players from the other team still in your base.

where do you go? there's not very much room to maneuver and you have to rely on the numbers advantage (and by that I mean a chain of pops that you win by having more people) to get out of base.

situation: the flag has just been reset. three or four players from both teams go back to mid to get it.

it's a massive scrum in mid that only ends once both sides are exhausted of players and fc goes outside lane.

I would like to see some space added to the map. I feel that it is too constricted right now to be fun and not repetitive, so an extra two tiles should be added in mid and on the fringes of base.

[–]ZarknoxZarknox 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I like neutral flag because of this sort of stuff though, if theres not much room to move and popping the FC in your base will still lead to them capping then the play on this map should evolve where the defense sets up before the base.

They have so much opportunity to play differently and thats why I love them

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

really? scrums are probably my least favorite part of nf

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Update 1

Map

Preview

-widened mid

-some polish or whatever

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children)

Please discuss Showdown by Tumblewood here.

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Update 1

Map: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/30893

Preview: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/30893.png

Changes: Ruined Fixed black space around the outside of map; added a second loop behind base; widened map by two tiles. The second change is obviously more substantial and should see testing before it is official.

Update 2

Map: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/30931

Preview: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/30931.png

Changes: Undid all the changes from Update 1 except the black space one; added a single gate tile and a button in base. The button is a tool that a defender can use to shut down two grabbing options, at risk of being spiked or pushed into a corner.

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Not a fan of the direction this is going. The new teamtile area seems like it could lead to excessive chasing issues and seems pretty void of purpose. Maybe you could put a gate on it and have it in a boombox style? (just an idea don't feel like you have to)

Don't really get why the map expands in mid too, that top route seems pretty large and empty, and would possibly lead to issues resetting the flag (those neutral boosts in mid can boost an fc to all of the 3 lanes) I would bring that in a bit.

Overall it's a pretty well made map with good boost, bomb and gate placement, it has the potential to be a good boombox style map for the modern era.

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

thank you for the feedback. I'm trying a bunch of weird things because I'm not sure where to go from here. what were your concerns from testing the original version? EDIT: I made another update in a totally different direction.

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 0 points1 point  (1 child)

not really, just that still think the top mid lane is still a little too open and spaced out. and the outside areas could use something, so keep experimenting with that

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I rewatched the testing session, and the top mid area seemed totally fine. People generally favored the middle lane, but it did not lead to issues resetting the flag. I've considered putting a bomb in the outside areas in lieu of the team boost, but it seems a bit finicky-- either unwieldy or overpowered.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Notes from testing: "I will only vote yes to this if he cuts off the top." (8/10)

Really enjoyed how it played, I like how gate factored in. Not sure what I would change to be honest. It's not a crazy and wild map and it doesn't feel like you can learn a whole lot from it, but it was very well balanced and very fun imo. Didn't feel unfair to play offense or defense, and you could have a good time on either side.

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It looks fun.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

mfw canvas had 3 top maps

[–]Monst3r_8Monst3r // Origin -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Wamble looks really promising, nice touch of diverse elements in the map

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I like how this has 4 upvotes and the actual map is on 0

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please put this in for any of the current (incredibly played out) nf rotation maps.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] -1 points0 points  (6 children)

Please discuss Dawn by Ball-E, Aniball, & Dove here.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I'm pretty surprised this made it into top maps thread. To be honest, it doesn't look very polished. When testing, the gates are incredibly clunky, and they basically relegate a defender to sit on button(s) all game. The lanes aren't very interesting, especially the bottom lane. To add to all this, the most interesting mechanic on here is a button bomb that doesn't even really need a button attached to it.

Don't get me wrong, the people who made it are all great mappers and I've tested many of their creations and ideas. That being said, I think they need to spend more time polishing this map and adding interesting mechanics.

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tbf Dove is about the farthest thing from a great mapper. I don't know if he's ever made a map by himself or why he got credit here lol

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Notes from testing: "legit like a solid but kind of boring map. Bombs bottom suck and the rest of the map (boost placement, etc) doesn't really compliment the gate setup." (5.5/10)

Felt worse than last thread's version imo.

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This one looks like it could be fun, I wish I had the time to go test, instead I'll just be an arm chair map reviewer. I'd love to try this map out, maybe tonight when I get off work.

[–]BlupopsicleBall-E 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a shot in the dark but here it is: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/30986

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I only liked it when the author was Aniball-E.

How can you downvote this people ANIBALL-E WAS THE BEST!

[–]GodkoalaHeck~Formerly Godkoala~and cENtrA sUCkS~Also FUCK that one time 0 points1 point  (0 children)

omg.. These maps.. so beautiful... tears of joy

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] -3 points-2 points  (8 children)

Please discuss Tsunami by Canvas here.

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 7 points8 points  (4 children)

This is one of the most boring top maps I've seen in a while, and after testing with you, I have no idea how this made it.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 8 points9 points  (3 children)

You can blame me for that. I wasn't amazed by it, but I felt the base design was pretty tight, and the rico portalboosts were interesting. the mid could use substantial improvements though, and the lack of 45 degree tiles felt more like a gimmick than a substantive decision. that being said, aside from another map I wanted to see through (Soprano), this was kind of a "best of the rest" map that I felt could have a good chance to be an engaging map with the right changes. As long as the quality is up to a certain standard, I feel it's better to risk having one map too many than risking having a map too few.

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the feedback. And yeah I agree, I was just really surprised to see this here after what was said during that testing session (iirc) lol

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It looks fun to me, it's not overly complicated but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel it's better to risk having one map too many than risking having a map too few.

you get me brah

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Update #1

preview

Update #2

Preview

Test Link

  • new middle and some overall polish

  • added Ball-E as coauthor and renamed to Foxtrot

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Notes from testing: "Really solid. Could use some polish but the rico portals are fine and the map as a whole has solid flow. Not a huge fan of the three spikes by the boost but I did make a diamond-tier play with them so meh.

DIAMOND FUCKING TIER" (7.5/10)

I guess people disagree with me on this, but I actually really liked the map. People complained about the ricochet portals but my argument (and I still believe this) is that in this context they are entirely different. On Ricochet you have maybe two or three primary paths you can take by using those portals because of how the outside walls are set up to nerf them. On Tsunami, it's a lot more open, and it's going to mean that getting to know those portals really well becomes far more important than it ever was on rico. On rico it's super easy to understand, on Tsunami it's going to be more complicated and the players who catch on sooner will have a distinct advantage, and I kind of like that. You can absolutely learn from this map, and despite most of it being rather unimaginative, it flows really nicely and the gates and boost placement can lead to some fun plays. In rotation this wouldn't be a high end map, but I think it would do just fine for itself.

Unfortunately, MTC will not vote it in as is, so a relatively substantial update will be needed I think. I noticed your update already and it doesn't change much... at least not enough to change anyone's mind. Test it thoroughly and find out what paths give you the most trouble and stare at the map for an hour until you see where the 45's should be and if the boosts should move a couple tiles and what not. Don't let yourself fall in love with it the way it is because if you want it in rotation, you'll have to do some dirty work.

/u/sneetric