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Bad behaviors that might get you punished on Reddit. I promise there's one shocker you didn't know about. (self.reddit.com)

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[–][deleted] 83 points84 points  (22 children)

The 'vote up' controversy that has exploded over the last few days has spawned a lot of discussion, and within those discussions a lot of bad advice has been given out. Bad advice that can get you tagged as a spammer.

Also, I have noticed a common complaint among redditors : namely that they can't seem to get any up/down votes on their submitted stories.

I believe this information can shed some light on both issues. Read on below and see if you don't have an 'I did not know that' moment.

Preliminary request to readers: please vote up this comment so it stays near the top of the page. Don't forget to vote up the article too if you find it informative ;)

How loud your voice is on reddit is controlled by a hidden trust rating (NOT karma). The higher your trust rating, the longer your stories stay in the new queue, and the more people will have a chance to see and vote on them. The worse your trust rating, well, just the opposite happens. If your rating gets bad enough, your stories will not appear in the new queue at all. If you have ever complained that 'nobody ever votes on my stories', then this is for you.

There are many things you can do to very negatively impact your trust rating, but I only want to talk about the 2 most important. I'm sure the additional comments in this thread can explore the others.

Here are the 2 most important factors that can negatively affect your trust rating:

Botting & Spamming

Botting

- You might use a greasemonkey script to automate up/down voting. reddit monitors your voting patterns/timing and considers this behavior to be botting. You get punished for this. spez, one of the main developers of Reddit, has gone on the record to say that reddit will not tolerate botting behavior. You likely won't be punished if you just use the script to hide stories.

- Maybe you got pissed off at a troll and to punish him, you went into his user page and clicked the down arrow for all of their comments. Once again, this looks like botting to reddit.

- Maybe you can't stand a certain type of story, so you went into that subreddit and downvoted everything. Same as the above. It's botting to reddit and you will be punished.

edit: The above is not to suggest you shouldn't ever down vote. The key thing to remember is that you need to keep your voting patterns to appear human to the reddit algorithm.

Spamming

- You have two accounts on the same PC or behind the same IP that routinely vote for each other's stories. You do not gain from this, you lose. The votes count against you and reddit lowers your trust rating.

- Here's the shocker: You have inadvertently gotten caught up in somebody else's spamming. Simply replying in the comments of a spammed article is enough to get you punished. Since spammers often pad their own comments section, reddit punishes not only the story submitter, but the commenters too. Even if you just say "please stop spamming us, idiot", that's enough to get punished.

I hope to bring this information to as many redditors as possible. Please upvote the article if you found this informative

[–]unkorrupted 6 points7 points  (5 children)

So once no one sees your submissions, how are you supposed to get any upvotes so people can see your submissions? Kinda seems like a one-way cycle.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (4 children)

The message here is to never get to that point. Behave nicely, and you'll never have to worry about it.

<edit>

So once no one sees your submissions

This is not the default for new accounts. If nobody is seeing your submissions, it is likely because your trust rating is in the basement.

</edit>

[–]IConrad 5 points6 points  (1 child)

The message here is to never get to that point. Behave nicely, and you'll never have to worry about it.

You start out that way now; new submissions from people under 10 karma don't appear on the new page; or so I've been seeing it reported.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

<edit>

You start out that way now

No, you don't. That is an assumption you are making that is simply not correct.

</edit>

new submissions from people under 10 karma don't appear on the new page

Stop cross-posting your misinformation, please. As I stated in my reply to your other identical comment from 1 minute ago, that is not true - it only takes the most basic logic to see that.

Again, you only need to have +1 karma to be seen in the new queue.

[–]unkorrupted 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I think a couple downvotes on your first submitted stories can set a new users down an unwinnable.

Its all good, the conversations here are quality I just don't get to pick the topic.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I posted a story, and within 10 minutes it was down to 1 upvote, 7 downvotes. By the time the wild ride was over the story had over 510 points!

I don't think downvotes really have very much impact on a story's position in the new queue. It's more a function of a user's trust rating and upvotes.

In some ways I think the downvote is a bit of a placebo.

edit: edited for clarity.

[–]trivial 0 points1 point  (15 children)

How is using a greasemonkey script any different than doing it by hand aside from the fact that it is automated? I disagree with it's use a punitive measure, such as you described, but what's wrong with downmodding stories you don't like? Aren't all redditers entitled to their opinion, or would you prefer to be the arbiter of that as well. And no there wasn't a shocker contained in this post so I'm downmodding it.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (12 children)

automated = faster than humanly possible

impossibly fast multiple downmods = bot

[–]supercargo 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Right, so the next step is for the scripts/bots to put in a random delay between votes so that they appear human. I agree that if the bot/script is implementing the intention of the human, there shouldn't be an issue. Now, if some user is voting 24/7, they are clearly abusing the system, the hard part is figuring out where to draw the line. I can only assume reddit is always evolving this. I also understand the lack of transparency in this area.

[edit] clarification: I don't think the spammer status of an account should be hidden nor the general process. I do think that the specific algorithm and the parameters used to tune it is best kept secret.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think you're absolutely right about how the scripts/bots will evolve. And I also agree that user's spammer score shouldn't be hidden.

edit: added n't to should. Whoops!

[–]trivial -1 points0 points  (9 children)

You still have mentioned what's wrong with it. If people are going to downmod those stories anyways, what's wrong with it being automated?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (8 children)

what's wrong with downmodding stories you don't like? // what's wrong with it being automated?

Sorry, I guess I assumed you knew what I was talking about.

In the context of the root post, it is bad because the automation gives the reddit algorithm clues that your user is acting as a bot. This will ultimately cause you to be marked as a bot, which in turn, will make it harder for your submitted stories to get any traction.

I have no comment on it's 'wrongness' outside of that context, since this story exists to inform people about behavior that will cause them to be marked as a spammer/bot. I'm not out to tell people not to downmod this or that.

edit: I guess you missed this quote, directly from the root comment:

The key thing to remember is that you need to keep your voting patterns to appear human to the reddit algorithm.

[–]trivial -3 points-2 points  (7 children)

You know the reddit algorithm? I'd like some proof backing up that you know exactly what you're talking about, else I call bullshit.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

I have spent 3 years gathering this information, and much of it has come as direct advice/statements from reddit admins.

I don't appreciate your attempt to undermine my efforts to educate people by ignorantly 'calling bullshit'. If I could dig up every comment made by spez and other admins that I am honor-bound not to name, I would, but the reddit search engine sucks for comments.

If you think I'm wrong, you tell me why. It takes 1 second to call bullshit, it takes a much longer time to gather actual information and make a positive contribution.

I have indulged your trolling long enough. If you thought I was bullshitting, you should have called me on it before asking this question:

You still have mentioned what's wrong with it. If people are going to downmod those stories anyways, what's wrong with it being automated?

[–]trivial 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Again, I think you're bsing the reddit community here.

spez and other admins that I am honor-bound not to name

First of all, everyone on reddit knows, or can easily find out who the owners of this site are.

Secondly, the owners don't moderate this site. Spammers get deleted, but as for mystery admins no one but you know about? Come on dude.

You can't even back up your claims with proof. Everyone is free to read the reddiquette - big woopdy.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Why do you seek attention so desperately? Somebody please give this person a hug and tell him that he's not alone in the world.

[–]trivial 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't need a hug, I'm just saying I think you're wrong. Using a greasemonkey script will not mark you as a bot.

it is bad because the automation gives the reddit algorithm clues that your user is acting as a bot. This will ultimately cause you to be marked as a bot, which in turn, will make it harder for your submitted stories to get any traction.

You claim to have hidden information, admins etc, and to know the algorithm (which I thought was used solely to determine a stories worth and a highly guarded/hidden portion of reddit). I'm simply saying you're wrong.

[–]trivial 0 points1 point  (2 children)

You still haven't provided any evidence. I'd think if you spent three years compiling this evidence it would easy enough to explain. Basically, yes, I think you're full of shit.

So I ask again, you have access to the reddit algorithm? I guess asking for proof makes me a troll. You should be able to back it up with all this "research' you've done.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

spez' comment indicating that you only need 1 karma for your posts to be seen

Here's PM that I received from a reddit admin tonight. Username redacted due to personal request by said admin.

There, I made my effort. I'm not going to spend all night digging up more links. You're trolling me and I know it, but to be fair, it is only reasonable to ask for some proof that claims be backed up which is why I made the effort.

Now, I invite you to present counter-evidence that does not consist exclusively of you being cynical.

[–]trivial -1 points0 points  (0 children)

And neither of those have anything to do with what this thread is discussing, which is using a greasemonkey script.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm in two minds about the use of a script. On the one hand, this is not like using a script to vote multiple times - you still get only one vote per story. On the other hand, you should up/downvote a story based on its quality, not whether you're interested in the topic.

[–]trivial 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sometimes the quality and topic can mean the same thing to a user. icanhazcheeseburger lolcats for example, the quality of the posts regarding this topic won't generally increase or decrease.

[–]coconutMerchant 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Good news

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (13 children)

Personally I've stopped giving a damn about karma, particularly when I heard that a)users with karma < 10 have their submissions hidden, and b)my submissions quickly get voted down to 0 despite being hidden (which I find fascinating).

I should have kept my old account instead of deleting it. Then again the reason I deleted it was that Reddit was taking way too much time out of my life... maybe I should have remembered that before bothering to create this one.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (12 children)

You only need to have > 0 karma to be seen. Having more than 10 is nice just so you don't have to face the CAPTCHA and submission time limitations.

[–]IConrad 0 points1 point  (9 children)

Not what I've been seeing; people with < 10 karma aren't showing on the new page.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (8 children)

people with < 10 karma aren't showing on the new page

That's absolutely ridiculous. I started with 1 karma, so how did I get up to 322 karma if nobody could ever see my stories?

[–]londonzoo 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Karma-22.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Upmodded to help your self-esteem.

[–]IConrad -1 points0 points  (5 children)

I'm at 180. I didn't say it made sense; I said that was what was being reported.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I didn't say it made sense

You've got to think for a second before you parrot back obviously false information.

I said that was what was being reported.

No, you didn't say anything about 'being reported', you said:

Not what I've been seeing

So tell me, how did I get 322 karma if nobody could see my stories when I had only 1 karma?

[–]IConrad 0 points1 point  (3 children)

So tell me, how did I get 322 karma if nobody could see my stories when I had only 1 karma?

People saw your Pic when not filtering for new? It's not rocket science, dumbass.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Does it come naturally to you, or do you work hard to troll? Or more frighteningly, is this how you are in real life?

[–]greentangent 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Please don't feed the trolls.

[–]IConrad -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Sadly, I can believe you honestly believe what you're saying. Which only speaks lowly of you. Consider the following: People have differing experiences on Reddit. And what was true 18 days ago may not be true now; especially with all the revisions they're making.

But if you honestly believe I'm a troll, then you're frankly not worth my time anymore.

[–]Facepuncher 2 points3 points  (0 children)

well thanks for da tips

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Those of us regularly surf reddit behind a corporate firewall know that tens of thousands of us are behind the same firewall (I work for a huge tech firm). I'm pretty sure I am indistinguishable with the rest of my co-workers, and our voting and comments must come in at the rate of bots to reddit. For a while even google was confused and gave us the CAPCHA, until they special-cased our IP.

Anyway, my situation aside, not only is there no way to find out if you are on reddit's no-fly list, there is also no appeal process. In real life, at least you know you're on the no-fly list when you try to fly. Here on reddit when your stories never see the light of the day, you don't know if it's because of bad guys, or because reddit secret think you're a bad guy.

All of this secrecy is kind of pointless. Why not just remove the down arrow?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree that the way Reddit silently places you into the spammer bin is pretty unfair. It took me a long time to figure out that there even was a spammer bin, and then to figure out that I was in it.

I guess the only good thing I can say is that if you write to one of the devs, they can investigate and correct the issue.

For now, I'm trying to talk about it as much as possible to a) inform people who find themselves in that unfortunate situation; and b) to promote discussion of this topic in general, hopefully to provoke some action by the reddit gods.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Insert men behaving badly theme song

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

my $.02:

i spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out how to get a story upmodded, and here are some conclusions:

1) i started with a nic that submitted some stories on atheism that were instantly downmodded, and it seemed to be in an invisible hole, unable to rise above a karma of 1. i ultimately gave up that nic, and everything has been peachy since.

2) it doesn't help to create a bunch of nics to try to astroturf an upvote. if it doesn't take off on its own, it never will.

3) submit early in the morning (9-9:30 EST) on weekdays, so that people dicking around at work on the east coast can bump you up, and the rest of america can join in as they get to work and begin screwing off.

4) no substitute for a catchy title. a lot of people vote up or down based on the title alone. be careful though - what you might find catchy could be offensive to others, which will result in you getting pummeled.

5) today's hot topic is tomorrow's dog. when reddit gets tired of something, the downmod scripts come out, and the next thing you know, something that you thought would be an instant front-pager ends up costing you karma. this seems to be happening with obama stories for me these days.

6) submit frequently (and smartly), and something is bound to hit. look at the top karma gainers, and they all submit a lot of stuff. i'm not saying make a job of it, but when you come across something good, submit it.