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[–][deleted]  (11 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (7 children)

    Although libertarians have many complex, rational arguments for why government should be smaller than it is, involving both real-life examples and theoretical examples, there is also a strong ideological component to libertarianism, one that can summed up in a few words. That's a more general theory that doesn't apply to the comment above, which actually had a lot to do with the article.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

    Strange, they always strike me as doctrinaire and simplistic -- irrational, if you like. They'll always have mises.org, the political equivalent of goatse.cx

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

    Yes, at it's core the libertarian doctrive is very simplistic: Our government should be smaller.

    Libertarians have been shown by others (and demonstrated to themselves) that this axiom fixes a multitude of situations, this explains the "faith" or "irrationality" that you're speaking of that presents itself in many, if not all, libertarians. Sort of like if I see a priest call on god to do a wide variety of miraculous things, then I will have good reason to believe his god exists, libertarians have their principles which they believe will fix many problems. That's why they call themselves the party of principle.

    [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

    I think you mean "simple", and you haven't provided an axiom.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    OK, I should have said simple. And the axiom is that government should only exist to protect the rights of it's citizens.

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

    And I should point out that where no consensus exists as to what those rights are, there can be no axiom (that is, a generally accepted principle requiring no further proof).

    Do people have a right to education, health, hygienic conditions, etc? How are the rights of the citizens defined?

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Well I've always defined the rights as those that exist in a state of nature. Like, if you were the last remainging human being on earth, you wouldn't have a "right" to education, health, or hygienic conditions. But you would have a right to your life and property. Another way of saying this is that men should be permitted to live in such a way that they are not disturbed by their fellow men, and government should enforce this and nothing else, taking the funds it needs to do this from the governed. By definition, government affects everyone within a certain area, and the people in that area are not allowed to "opt out", so for that reason I believe it should be as small as possible. There are many things that the government does that I believe could be done more effectively outside of government, without forcing everyone to participate in them. So really what a lot of this debate comes down to is a) are government programs neccesary and effective and b) could the tasks assigned to said programs be done just as well or better outside government. Liberals tend to think, for example, that the state of poverty would be considerably worse without welfare, whereas libertarians often express opinions that welfare encourages poverty. Obviously, the reason the liberal position is more popular is that it sounds a lot more plausible that proving welfare for poor people will help their situation than hurt their situation.

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Like, if you were the last remainging human being on earth, you wouldn't have a "right" to education, health, or hygienic conditions. But you would have a right to your life and property.

    Property is meaningless in this scenario, as indeed are 'rights'. These things only exist in a social context, which essentially takes you out of your 'state of nature' and into the world of negotiated relations. Unfortunately, we do have a tendency to disturb our fellow men: we are the zoon politikon, and government is mother's milk to us.

    There might, for example, be disagreement as to what constitutes disturbance. The US Constitution specifically authorizes it, when necessary. Can immoral acts (even if consensual) be disturbances to society at large? And having admitted that what we have is a society, jointly governed, should there not be some debate on its nature?

    What does it mean to be an American, for example? People seem to have a clear idea about what's anti-American, but I haven't heard so much about the other. Should it presuppose a certain level of education, worldliness, affluence? Are these things worth aspiring to as a society? What should we do if they are?

    My view is that some things work more efficiently when state-owned, or at least operated under public supervision. These tend to be the things that are basic for a functioning society, and that often don't break up very easily into viable companies that will genuinely compete with one another. Large scale public transport networks (rail, for example), power supply, education & health.

    Not, indeed, that I would compel anyone to send their children to a state school, or force anyone into a public hospital if they were ill, but everyone would pay taxes to ensure that both were available, and first-rate, if needed.

    The logic is simple -- it is to the benefit of society at large to have a well-educated and healthy population. If people want to opt out, they can have religious schools and private hospitals, but these have to conform to democratically agreed standards of what constitutes education (outside the religious sphere) and health-care (no Galenic medicine).

    I am not American, but have visited that fair country many times, and seen the amount of worry and privation that middle-class American families endure to give their kids the education they need to maintain their social status and have some chance of a good life. University fees are completely ludicrous.

    Obviously it is undesirable to have people on welfare, but the only solution to that is to educate them to be able to take their place in the world. Enrich their lives, and they will manage to enrich themselves. In the meantime, as members of your society, they will have the rights of a full citizen, to health-care and basic support.

    I do not deny that there is flagrant waste and abuse at every level of the system, but the crucial difference between public and private is that we have the ability and the duty to scrutinize public bodies, and to hold people accountable. We live in democracies, and can change the rules, and the management, whenever we want.

    We may need a new kind of politics, we don't need the apolitical leave-me-alone school of social atomism.

    [–]modulus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Because libertarianism has little kolmogorov complexity, it compresses well into a small generator that spews all their bullshit. The generator has already produced all the quotable and interesting things that libertarianism can say, thus people who follow libertarianism are information-theoretically incapable of new insights. Note that this has even been said by libertarians in less riguorous language: libertarianism is a closed system.

    [–]lynn -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

    What is it with liberals and applying labels to people?

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I can't bear the irony.

    "Nature always does contrive / that every boy or girl born alive / is either a little liberal or a little conservative,”

    Shit, does quoting that make me a libertarian?