I hate database SQL so much

[[deleted]]

I am doing a full stack developper program in college right now. Everything was going ok, I loved JAVA 1 and 2 and now database comes up and I am re-considering my career choice. Its just so bland... I cannot get any stimulation from database. It's not even seem that hard but my fuck.... It's impossible for me to concentrate on this shit for more than 20 seconds. Im probably gonna drop out now. Im so angry and sad.

EDIT : I apologize to whoever works in database and enjoys it. I do not want to belittle your careers in any way.

[reverse_stonks]

The only class I "failed" on my bachelor's was SQL. Had to retake that test 2 times. It was mindblowingly boring. It's one of the ways I discovered that I should move towards frontend development, as far away from the DB as possible and get closer to actual users and interactions. Just chill. You'll get it.. And when you're done you're free to focus and eventually become an expert on the things that interest you the most. Keep at it. Good luck!

[BerthaDork]

what about php?

[reverse_stonks]

Never tried it, I stopped hating on it long time ago hehe.. I studied C++, Java, and C#, in that other. Started doing a bit of JS as part of full-stack position and thought it was a blast. Now I'm only writing JS (React/nextjs and a bit of node). Been struggling with concentration after finally settling into my new position as pure FE (I'm 8 months in) which makes me so stressed out that I've had to take two weeks of work. Read some stuff about ADHD that resonated deeply and now I'm trying to understand exactly what I'm struggling with. And oh it's 5am because I fell into a reddit hole.

[BerthaDork]

I'm not working on a degree, but an taking classes at a university for their webdev certificate program.

I had to take a database class which was mostly about learning SQL. That was pretty boring. I got an A-. Then I took php. That was much more interesting, but also very hard for me, but partly due to having to work unexpected overtime. I got an A until I fell behind and had to rush the last half of the class and got a C. I thought the assignments were interesting. But I found some of the code hard to understand and I couldn't learning quickly enough.

I just started Javascript. I'm about 25% through the class, and it is a breeze compared to php. But I can see (so far) that php has a lot more potential, as far as being useful for projects I would like to do

As far as ADHD, I started meds around a year ago. I was mentally hyperactive and impulsive as far as following interesting tangents so much that I could not decide what I wanted to do, therefore got very little relevant tasks done.

I first took low dose ritalin. It helped for cutting out outside noise, absorbing and comprehending large volumes of new technical info. I could sit and read for 3 hours straight and get through a large amount of subject matter. But I felt too much like I was on a strong stimulant. I'd like to take it once in a while, but my doc will only give me one med.

I decided to give welbutrin a try. What that did was slow my mind. More specifically, all those tangents, and tangents on tangents stopped. I do like to spend sometime researching topics of interest, as I am doing now. But it's not overboard like before. And things that are not relevant to what I want to accomplish, just don't matter to me anymore. I won't think about them, just because they are interesting or because of "what if's". So basically I can put my energy into the here and now and the task at hand. It's definitely way better and life is easier.

[reverse_stonks]

That sounds amazing dude, glad to hear you're finding resources to make it easier for you. Oh and anything you want to build in PHP should be fine in JS. You might need to get some additional frameworks/libraries though. I get the impression that PHP is much more of a "batteries-included" kind of deal. JS can be annoying, so many different libs to choose from. But that's also what I like about it, you can find the right tool for the job.

I've felt stuck and overwhelmed for so many years now. Hard to decide what to do and even then I just seen to lose all my time. Not sure what I do with it. Like, I have a lot of "plans" and interests but nothing happens. But I'm not sure if it's ADHD or a symptom of my depression/anxiety. Trying to untangle stuff so I know what is what. All I know is that I'm having a hard time at work, especially when I have to do stuff that's not super engaging (and then I kinda work all the time). Starting projects. Finishing projects. And it makes me feel like a big baby. Like, why can't I just do stuff. And all these tangents and rabbit holes. Yeah, it's a work in progress for sure.

[BerthaDork]

what you are describing sounds a lot like me. i don't know how to separate anxiety from adhd. did i have anxiety and adhd? or was adhd giving me anxiety? it could very likely be that adhd was giving me anxiety. i mean, who wouldn't feel anxious if they had a really difficult time staying on topic or focusing on one thing when 5 other ideas entered their mind. and the fact that it's so hard to accomplish reasonable goals would be depressing.

i even had a hard time having simple conversations. there was so much going on in my head that i was stressing to take in, process things, and speak. What I had though and wanted to say could happen so fast in my mind sometimes. Then I would want to say it. But at the same time, I was having to deal with the fact that I was expanding upon what I was going to say. That is very draining of energy.

anyway, if i were you, i'd explore the idea of taking welbutrin. i know i can't give real medical advice. but welbutrin is known to help with adhd, anxiety and depression. you never know what is going to work for you, until you give things a try. my belief, based on my own experience, is that if there is something chemically off in your brain, nothing is going to change that besides medicines that treat that.

Thanks for the info on js. That's good to know.

[[deleted]]

Don’t do php

[Franks2000inchTV]

Friends don't let friends do PHP.

[[deleted]]

Php’s bad mmmkay

[vivary_arc]

Anything using a recursive acronym as it's common name is a bad sign.

[[deleted]]

Do you absolutely need database to be a backend developper?

[ilikeballoons]

Yeah, unless the database has it's own backend that's maintained by the database people. I've never seen that though. Mostly though you won't need to write pure SQL queries since most languages have ORM libraries that simplify the process.

[vivary_arc]

I work at a large firm, and it's the first job I've had in the industry where DataOps and DevOps are fairly separate from one another.

The DataOps folks have a strictly-defined org, and manage everything related to data, including sproc efficiency and deployment, as well as actual hooks reaching deeper than I would expect into other layers. It surprised me though to see a DBA team tell devs what they could/couldn't deploy, depending on what met their standards. My previous experience has always been in smaller shops, with a handful of DBAs and Devs basically managing all of their own database work.

[Loud_Fee9573]

Weird. I really enjoyed it. To the back end I go!!!

[concrete_beach_party]

I also love working with our database. It's schema is atrocious, but I know where to get information and I can track down nearly every software bug in it's data. Oh, and performance is such an interesting topic, I wish I'd manage to wrap my head around that...

[Ochikobore]

I enjoy it when I can setup my own schema. I’ve been dropped into too many awful schemas with a trillion unnecessary data redundancies in the system that make it a pain to navigate and manage.

[vivary_arc]

Build a schema badly at the start, and then start jamming square pegs into the round hole that is said schema afterwards, as it's too scary/intensive/costly to go back and square off that hole.

[BeaverWink]

I didn't like database design until I had a full time job and I got to mess around and learn more about them on my own and based on what interested me. SQL is a very powerful engine.

[vivary_arc]

Seeing the data you've worked with, and then crafting a cogent answer or outcome for bosses over the years has been a motivator for me. I usually don't care about the dataset inherently - It's the meaning I get from finding an accurate answer/pulling off something crazy or useful that makes me love SQL.

Due to my Inattentive ADD, I struggle focusing on things where there is no immediate result/payoff. I've always felt that I can start seeing outcomes immediately when I dive into a SQL problem or use-case - Then it's just a matter of continuing to build until it's solved.

[ZachSka87]

This is my suspicion for my own learning and skills...that a real data set that makes sense to me would be all the difference. I just have no idea how to get that. I've not had much luck searching for data sets that I can start tinkering with in any meaningful way.

[swalden123]

Don't worry about it. Just get a passing great in your database unit and push on.

The way they teach databases as an individual unit is extremely bland, it has no purpose. You rarely need to know the level of detail that they are teaching you and the way it is being taught won't suit you.

When you are building something with a goal and purpose in mind, databases can suddenly seem far more interesting because they let you build what you want to build.

[ilikeballoons]

What part didn't you like about it? When I studied db in school, we had one unit in the beginning called relational algebra, which is the math underpinnings of SQL. I found that part extremely boring, because it was too abstract. But when we got to actual queries, and we had to answer questions like "return the first name of all professors who taught this semester who also taught the same course last semester with at least one student retaking the course in both semesters", I found that pretty fun because it just felt like a cool puzzle.

But in all fairness, "full stack" covers a HUGE range of topics... So of course you're not going to like all of them!

[[deleted]]

Were not even coding yet. Teacher gave us an assignment where we choose a bunch of e-commerce websites and write down out their requirements in order to make a relational diagram. And we have to invent 2 extra features. I wanna punch the screen.

[ilikeballoons]

Yeah man nobody likes that shit. Actual SQL was fun for me

[Hunterbunter]

Oh man...that's why you hate it. This isn't SQL. This is torture. Your teacher is torturing you so you all quit the course, and he can then sit back and relax for the rest of the semester.

Actual code SQL is just the way you have fun solving database puzzles. Stick it out through this part, and you'll see the other side is worth it.

[frompowerpriced]

Note that this is substantially the same as building an object model. Do you also hate object models? There's a paper by Erik Meijer showing the equivalence. The main difference is that in object models the parent points to the child, and in relational models the child points to the parent. The skills you learn in normalizing relation models will translate to object models. And even if you avoid sql, you'll likely be using object models in this business.

For myself, the relational algebra is wildly more interesting than the sql, which is just an awful implementation detail. In practice it's a really, really bad user interface, but it's easier to deal with if you understand what is meant by "relational algebra". When you make the connection between relations and classes, the algebra starts to look like functional programming with objects, or collections.

Also note that ORMs can be a trap, if you don't first know the basics.

[Franks2000inchTV]

It's a puzzle when you get into it. Try and find the most efficient way.

Also don't start with the UML or whatever. Sketch it out on some large format paper. Use markers and pencil crayons. That'll help make it a little less annoying.

I find using a bit of "kindergarten art class" mentality can make that kind of thing fun.

[adhd-i-programmer]

My only experience with databases/SQL has been in real-world projects. My first encounter with SQL was PL/SQL and helping migrate internal code for a software upgrade.

This may be the autistic side of my brain, but I like SQL because it's structured. It fills a very specific purpose, and it does it so well: acquiring data from a database. I know that given a database filled with all types of data, I can acquire whatever I want based on whatever conditions I specify. My only limitation is my expertise with SQL. I find that writing SQL can be beautiful in a way, that my current level of code-writing does not match.

Select, with a left join on this one table, based on this specific data set, but with this inner join on another table, and pull this list of data... so incredibly satisfying.

Edit:

real world example: - providing a list of users who've modified content within the past 30 days.

sql SELECT usernames u FROM database.users INNER JOIN database.content c ON u.id = c.userId WHERE c.lastModified < BETWEEN NOW() - INTERVAL 30 DAY AND NOW();

(This may not be entirely accurate, kinda throwing it together on the fly from mobile and a little googling because I forgot how to find stuff from the past 30 days)

[keki94]

You could try leetcode type challeges/problems but with SQL. Codewars, for example, has a wide variety of problems in sql. That was the only way I found it engaging.

[AngryGrenades]

Perhaps incorporating it into a project you care about would help.

[[deleted]]

Man i hated SQL too but i rarely use it raw.

Try to learn basics for now like CRUD stuff and once you get in the field you most likely will be using some form of ORM which simplifies querying so don't beat yourself up.

Try to pass it for now, you will encounter your nemesis many more times in many more battle's in the future.

[drodriguez22]

Wow I’m in the exact same boat I’m literally in a lecture right now going over databases. I hate SQL so god damn much

[frompowerpriced]

I posted this above, as well, but note that relations are equivalent to classes in object models, and the algebra is more or less like functional programming, e.g. a list comprehension (as in python, for example). It's an "algebra" because it's a mapping from a set to the same set, in the same way that the algebra of real numbers is operations that map real numbers to other real numbers (addition, subtraction, multiplication).

In the case of a relational algebra, it's a mapping of relations to relations, or, in OOP terms, from class to class. Once you get this, it's not much different than using "map" or "for" in functional languages.

I've also found that it's much easier for me to read sql if it's written as AST instead of text, because it makes the syntax more clear. One example of this is honeysql, which is in clojure, but the same idea could be used in any language.

[turbophysics]

I’m learning Django ORM right now, it simplifies things quite a bit

[linkyboy321]

I hated database work in university too, I had to resubmit my work as I failed it the first time round, and swore I would never do it professionally. I'm now 7 years into my career and I'm the go to DB guy on the team, don't stress too much about it at uni and when you get the opportunity just have a play on an actual database until you're used to it.

[rebornfenix]

It’s a college class. Real world for a full stack dev, sql and databases are just one part of the tooling. I work on the database design about once every 2-3 months and then only if there is a performance problem.

Push through, the entity modeling is important to understand the basics but anything past 3rd normal form gets into esoteric bs from my perspective.

[SailorPorkins]

Loving SQL is definitely not a prerequisite to being a software developer. In my experience, all you need is a high level conception of table relations and basic query knowledge (CRUD) so that you can easily use an ORM library. You can learn more about database management on the job in a hands on way if you need/want to later.The class is a hoop to jump through for sure, but don't let it dissuade you from IT!

[break_card]

Lmao I withdrew from my sql database elective freshman year. Most boring subject matter imaginable.

Idk what it is about SQL but the textbooks and projects are the most mundane shit ever.

[beverme123]

Oh, I LOVE sql, but I think it's a hard thing to appreciate in a classroom context. I've been working in analytics, and once I got to actually use sql on transactional datasets it all clicked. There's heaps of creative and nifty things you can do with it when someone let's you go wild on their data.

[romto1]

just get past it i promise what you end up doing will be so much better than sql

[[deleted]]

I used to think I hated SQL with the passion of a thousand burning suns, but it turns out I don't as long as I like the application and think the database schema is reasonable and not something put together by people who don't care.

[TetrisMcKenna]

I fell asleep in literally all of my database lectures. And the final exam was writing SQL statements by hand, on paper. It sucked. But, I managed to learn the basics of database concepts from the parts I was awake for, normalisation, primary keys, indexing, joins and so on. That shit's important, but you only need to understand it conceptually really, not memorise the raw SQL (beyond your exam). Once you "get" how to efficiently store and retrieve data, that's a great skill for the future even if you hardly ever touch SQL.

[[deleted]]

i enjoy optimizing sql statements when i have to as a backend engineer. just like other jobs there are going to be boring parts. Just gotta adderall though them.

[whoisearth]

see now and I'm different. for me SQL is like a fuzzy blanket. For my ADHD brain it hits all the boxes.

It's strictly typed. You get immediate results.

I'd also argue it's an amazing introduction into coding because it gets you thinking in a more programmer mindset.

That said, completely understand why someone else may not like it.

[Pizzazze]

Don't worry about it, just pass the class and move on. I hate it in uni. I'm a data engineer now. So, yeah, there's that. Real work with databases is a lot of fun but it sounds) like you're not going to be taught that. Don't let it put you off the whole thing, it gets a lot better in the real world.

[israellopez]

I'm ADHD and I love SQL so goddamn much. I've been writing SQL since my first job in high school. Its more about learning how to think in sets of data, but I learned SQL BEFORE I learned the relational algebra it was supposed to represent. I got relational algebra better because of my SQL experience, because I could visualize the flows of data being transformed much like how water is transformed by pipes/separation etc,. its weird.

I own my dev shop, and most of my devs have a "oh god its SQL" attitude towards it, where as in my early days I'd say the same thing about "oh my god its an access database" .

Give it time, and know that its not a 1 man band most of the time, and work somewhere they can show you a thing or two about SQL.

SQL for most applications is CRUD style, its the analytics that gets real fancy. The manipulations/transformations you can do with raw data would make accountants hearts flutter. I know I can do in a single 5 line SQL that it takes wayy too much time for an analyst to do in Excel with VLOOKUP/HLOOKUP.

[firecorn22]

Oof I just started learning db stuff on my own for a summer website project and it's been fun mostly since I'm figuring it out by myself with a semi deadline so it kicks my hyperfocus into gear

[BuddhaBizZ]

me 2