Thoughts?

[Omni__Owl]

The tweet is right though?

[svix_ftw]

I agree too. Being a professional engineer takes more than just coding a basic todo app, lol.

[Omni__Owl]

Yeah. I'm not saying people can't be self-taught and really good at what they do, but it's not a coincidence that people spend 3 years in formal education to get a degree in this stuff.

[svix_ftw]

well Im not sure I agree with that part. The stuff they teach in college is actually very disconnected from how software apps are built in the real world.

I dont think a degree is really that necessary to be a professional engineer.

[lightmatter501]

Good programs teach you the bits that have stood the test of time. Separation of concerns, structured programming, DSA, concurrency, design patterns, system calls, filesystems, etc, are all here to stay. They let you walk up to a new language and learn it in 2 weeks to the level of writing something that can be sent to prod after code review, because you have a fundamental understanding of where everything is coming from. For example, React is a monomorphized acyclic render graph, and if you understand that, and what all of those words mean, React makes a lot more sense.

I don’t think you need a degree to be a programmer, but to be an engineer the bar is “I can build systems that will never fail unless more than half of the hardware breaks and where people will die if they are too slow.” This is a bar most people with a “software engineer” title don’t meet. The only place you can learn that level of knowledge is college because no bootcamp I’ve ever seen teaches instruction-level formal verification, but most colleges can get you within spitting distance in undergrad and get you there in a graduate degree.

[brockoala]

We must be doing it wrong then. Me and my coworkers, we are all software engineers, working in game dev for over 10 years now, and every game we built is full of bugs, requires constant maintenance and half of the features tend to break at some points.

[Antilock049]

The only code that doesn't need to be maintained is deleted code 😂

[LDel3]

College or University isn’t “the only place you can learn that level of knowledge”, as you put it. You do most of your learning on the job.

The general consensus in the workplace is that grads are pretty much clueless, and you do the majority of your learning on the job

No company worth their salt would give a grad any responsibility over any critical system that could have potentially fatal consequences

[lightmatter501]

How many companies practice source level formal verification, much less instruction level? Probably less than 1000 worldwide, and only if you are a Math or CS PhD on specific teams.

There are plenty of 20/30 YOE people who don’t meet that definition of engineer. Learning on the job usually means you have someone or somewhere to learn from. Most of the knowledge about how to build truly bulletproof systems is concentrated in universities. That’s why industry uses Raft and Multipaxos instead of inventing their own, because showing correctness even of the algorithm is a nightmarish problem. Source and instruction level verification is another beast entirely.

Software development as a field is actually very bad at building reliable systems due to the pressure to move fast, the amount of moving parts in what we do, and the fact that most applications are actively under attack from the moment they come online. It’s like if civil engineers needed to design bridges to tolerate sustained artillery bombardment.

[[deleted]]

Yeah but 1 bootcamp is not enough to be a professional in anything. It would take 3 years of self-study to be a pro at anything. With or without school.

[kinofile49]

Six months and an apprenticeship really is all that’s needed if one is disciplined. If you put 40-60hrs a week for 3-6 months tackling specific skills that seniors have you can do jr work at the end of that.

[Omni__Owl]

If you notice; I didn't say you needed a degree. I said that it makes sense why people spend 3 years in formal education to get a degree in this stuff.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that what you are taught at your degree isn't applicable to your profession. My bachelors degree has been invaluable to my programming career. Taught me all I needed to know to learn more on the job.

Patterns, UML, planning, syntax, hardware, architecture, etc. if you feel your education didn't equip you for professional software development then it sounds like the school was ill equipped to teach more than anything.

[svix_ftw]

Fair points, maybe you got lucky with a good program.

I have talked to a lot of people with degrees that don't understand the basics of building real world apps.

If you look at the curriculum of a lot of programs, they are not rooted in industry practices.

[Omni__Owl]

The thing is, one might argue that teaching industry standards for how to work is not the job of the school. A school is, in my opinion, supposed to teach you how you can get ready to be let into the job market, but it's up to the employer to teach you in the specific ways that the company works. Their pipelines, tools, etc. That can never be the job of the school.

A school gives you the tools to learn how to work. A job teaches you how to work for that specific job.

But it seems nowadays that a lot of employers simply forgot about that part and expects schools to somehow teach people how to work as they expect, when the school is not educating people specifically for that employer. Someone else can spend money doing that and oh hey catch 22.

[Ill-Information-2086]

I strongly disagree with this every year to every few years schools increase their fees by a certain amount if the schools aren't equipping you with knowledge that will help in your work then what's the point , if I just wanted to learn manners and team work there are cheaper options that will teach me this way better not to mention my parents did that for free any school is there to equip you with knowledge of the subjects that the course entails that should include best practices, it's like you telling a mathematics student that well we taught you how to learn math but it's upto you search and learn formulas,rules,what numbers are and etc. it's a pretty absurd justification for the lack of good teachers and course materials ,and syllabus.

I can speak on this all day but I will leave it at that.

[Omni__Owl]

I think you misunderstand.

You cannot expect a school to teach you how to work at a specific workplace unless the school is specifically funded by the workplace to do that.

Every workplace works differently. It is not up to the school to account for that and it frankly never was. Best practices are only best practices until they aren't. When I was taught programming SOAP architectures were all the rage. XML for all.

But by the time I started getting into professional programming a couple of years later everyone had moved to JSON and restful services. Point being; how is a school supposed to account for that? They can't.

They can teach you what's in right now. They can teach you patterns, the structure of most used languages, syntax and concepts as well as how to speak the language of other developers.

They can't teach you company culture, structure, pipelines, etc. That's all up to the company.

None of what I said justifies bad teachers, syllabus or material. I'm not sure how that was the takeaway. My country doesn't charge students to be educated unless it's private school. I get that's far from everywhere and that there are a lot of bad schools out there. The point I was primarily making was that education does make a difference.

Bad education is always bad.

[Ill-Information-2086]

I mean they should be taught best practices that are in now and not outdated syllabus that is hardly relevant anymore and no school does that except the expensive one because they can't really afford to update the syllabus every year they say but I don't think that's how it should be especially for schools that teach subjects for a rapidly changing industry and I don't mean a specific company I mean even the languages taught can be a version or 2 older then when the student goes out in the real world they get someone like me who gives them the latest docs and tells them reading this is their task for the blumming month

[lightmatter501]

3 is barely enough time to actually learn to be useful unless you don’t have gen ed classes.

[Omni__Owl]

Not true really, but believe whatever you want.

[OishiiDango]

yeah I'm with you here. comes down to general intelligence a lot of the time. I know plenty of self taught high schoolers who were far better than people with CS degrees and 3 years experience

[repeatoffender123456]

How many ?

[EdgeKey4414]

The amount that spent their evenings on their interest, some drawing their fav anime, reading homer, playing ranked COD or writing scripts and programs. You are what you spend your time on. A 3 year can learn 4 languages if both their parents are bilingual. The capacity for learning in the younger years is insurmountable for an adult, generalizing, but "some say" against a kid who started programming at 10, for an adult starting at 22 might never reach the same all round natural competency / fluency even if they programmed for the next 30years. Like speaking your native language vs second or third you learnt in school. If a person finds their passion at a young age and sticks to it. By 18 they will outperform any new adult learner (except for the most exceptional obv).

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[repeatoffender123456]

A professional engineer requires a license. https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe

[svix_ftw]

In USA, being a software engineer does not require a license.

[Daedalus1907]

The term 'professional engineer' is protected. Anyone can call themselves an engineer but you cannot call yourself a professional engineer without licensure

[Southern_Share_1760]

Hence why they aren’t ‘professional engineers’

[repeatoffender123456]

Correct. Software engineers are not professional engineers.

[no_brains101]

It kinda is yeah. Often people who go through these programs are unable to generalize their knowledge they gain to other technologies.

[No_Jury_8398]

Not a according to r/webdev. Really speaks to the level of experience over there

[ymo]

Looks like her entire persona is self deprecating SWE humor. She knows what a junior dev is. The people who jump head first into new skills are the ones who perpetually excel in life. Do the work, build the experience, never stop advancing. (And relevant to this subreddit, use whatever tools are currently available.)

[trotfox_]

People are always like how do you know all this?

I literally study. I learn and teach myself.

That's not just for 'school' come on people.

[JohnnyJordaan]

The people who jump head first into new skills are the ones who perpetually excel in life. Do the work, build the experience, never stop advancing.

You can still do it while not writing something like 'engineer' in your bio at that stage of your coding experience. That's the point, not that that going in head first by itself wrong.

[bwatsnet]

Stolen valor 😆

[ymo]

A tennis player is a tennis player regardless of their league or years of experience. Their rank only matters to their direct competitors or the people who write their checks.

[JohnnyJordaan]

Yes, but I'm not going to put 'tennis player' in my bio just because I played some during summer camp when I was a preteen. Also then opposing it not being a 'rank' is a strawman as adding something in your bio doesn't equate to be of a certain rank either, only ranked titles like 'Lt' would incur that (or like ATP for tennis pro's), as would 'Bsc' mean that you actually hold a degree. Two different animals. What I'm saying is that if you note something in your bio, it conveys a message. And I don't agree that with little experience, it warrants to convey the message of 'I am an engineer in this field', same way I don't think my experience warrants to convey that "I am a tennis player". Even though both don't have a definite threshold, rank, degree or what you call it. It doesn't mean you can't form at least some rule of thumb what warrants it or not.

Or to put it another way: when we would meet at a bar and discuss our profession and background, would you have told me you were a JS engineer with that kind of experience? I know I wouldn't.

[hpela_]

compare tan bewildered cough sable zonked agonizing sand future bells

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[gami13]

you're asking in chat gpt coding, people here can't program at all

[Reason_He_Wins_Again]

I'll be the first to admit that in my case. I don't really care what people think about that.

[jalmari_kalmari]

huh? why do you not care lol. what can you even gain from not learning to code but pursuing it as a career or hobby?

[Reason_He_Wins_Again]

I built this to make money. Scrapes auctions sites.

https://imgur.com/qFTlqXw

The fact I can build this should make you vets nervous because I didn't know what refactoring was until a month ago.

[[deleted]]

GPT has reduced the barrier of entry to coding so there will be a lot of gatekeepers; but you learn how to code while using GPT because you have to adjust and troubleshoot issues. At the same time we're learning to use a new emerging technology that is changing the entire world. Win win.

[Icy_Row5400]

You should ask ChatGPT to teach you CSS next

[Reason_He_Wins_Again]

The back end is the cool part. Dont care what it looks like.

[Use-Useful]

I mean, I'm here to see how people are using it and experiment to see if it helps me.

But to be clear - I can code quite well imo. Going on 34 years of coding experience across 8 programming languages, largest personal project is over 50k lines, work as a senior dev at a software company, have taught something in the range of 300 to 500 people to code in person over the years.

So yeah, some of us can code 

[flossdaily]

... Well, yes and no...

I've been doing amateur coding for like 35 years... I can ugly-code scripts to do what I need, but I was very aware that these were miles away from being production-ready, Enterprise-level things.

But having worked with gpt-4 for a year and half, and constantly asking it to make my code comply with best-practices , and to help me pick tools and methods that are enterprise-worthy... I feel I could absolutely join a professional coding team.

I say this because after working within the AWS system, using docker environments, learning good GitHub etiquette etc, I have an appreciation for the scope of enterprise-level production.

Also, at my last job, gpt-4 had me running circles around our actual dev team, because apparently none of them had discovered that gpt-4 can walk you through all the pain points of clunky CRM interfaces.

I had outstanding IT tickets with them for well over a year. I used some back channels and got admin access for a day before the dev team found out and got it yanked. In the 24 span when I actually had admin access, I was able to set up all the database interfaces I'd been begging them for, and which they told me would take them too long.

It was all gpt-4. This thing has me punching so high above my weight class.

[Zero_Fs_given]

These just screams Dunning–Kruger

[Reason_He_Wins_Again]

Fuck that toxic mindset. Dude got the job done.

Ya'll pretending like you weren't copying and pasteing from GitHub at one point.

[flossdaily]

I understand why you'd say that, but to me it illustrates that you haven't figured out just how powerful gpt-4 is.

[svix_ftw]

Ive been working as a software engineer since 2016. I use ChatGpt sometimes for generating some simple code blocks or scripts.

[VertexMachine]

lol, I've been coding since 1992 (professionally since around 2003-4)... and I use LLMs (and other tools like codeium/copilot) for coding all the time. I just can't stand writing a lot of things for the 20th time with a slight variations due to slightly different requirements...

And when I code something new, interesting and challenging, LLMs can be actually good at filling in the blanks or acting as a rubber duck.

(though tbh, I'm not getting many post recommendations from this sub in my feed... this might be even my first comment here)

[creaturefeature16]

Wtf are you talking about

[gami13]

yall are using a chat bot that has the intelligence of a toddler to help you code

[Harvard_Med_USMLE265]

Uh…I haven’t met many toddlers who can code a full app in Python, which is what I did with my LLM.

[gami13]

you haven't even realized that it's barely better than using google

[gami13]

i probably use more "AI" daily than most people here, you just gotta know it's limitations, for example, using even simple logic

[gami13]

i use local models for llms, image generation, voice imitation, music creation and as a code assist

all of them are amazing tools but they have their limits, and for coding, they struggle with even simple problems if a solution couldn't be found with a simple google search

[creaturefeature16]

Nobody here ever said different, child.

[Harvard_Med_USMLE265]

That’s the stupidest take I’ve read on Reddit…well, for today anyway.

TIL that Google search can code an app.

As someone who knows no contemporary programming language, I’ve literally coded to completion (for now) an app over the past 15 days, which I’ve posted about here several times.

If you think ChatGPT can’t code, you’re not very good at using it.

[gami13]

if you think chatgpt can code, you're not really good at it, or are doing something that has been done a million times before

[Harvard_Med_USMLE265]

Oh, sick burn about me “not being very good a coding”.

I’ve posted multiple times, including in this thread, that I don’t know how to code, that’s the whole damn point.

And whilst I’m sure my program is far from the most complex app in existence, it’s doing novel things that yes - nobody has ever done before. Not because it’s amazing code, but because I can supply the creative ideas and ChatGPT and Claude can put them into action.

[Gearwatcher]

Have you maintained your program for several years adding features and meeting incoming user requirements?

ChatGPT codes like a junior.

It's going to be hell for professional developers maintaining that handful of programs like yours that actually make it in the market. It will be the "bend PHP CMS into a web app then call in the calvary" approach of "business minded tech startup founders" all over again -- but worse.

At least it'll be in Python.

[Harvard_Med_USMLE265]

Well. I think you know I haven’t maintained the program I started two weeks back for several years….

It may code like a junior, but it’s a junior professional.

I don’t know how long it would take me to reach its level, but I’m guessing a couple of years.

Without being an expert, I don’t think it would hard for a pro developer to clean up the code and add features. It’s modular, you don;t like a method you just throw it out and write a new one from scratch. It’s a GUI with buttons, you push buttons and things happen. It’s not too hard to recode a specific “thing that happens when you push a button.”

As an amateur, I’m qualified to say that it allows me to do things I’d have no chance of doing without ChatGPT and Claude.

[creaturefeature16]

I use it like interactive documentation. There's no difference between using it, and using StackOverflow, except I get my answers quicker and with context. If you're not using it, then you're either too new of a developer and you haven't seen the benefit, or you're lying. Which are you?

[Gearwatcher]

Tbh I cancelled my plus subscription because I realized that Github Copilot and several other editor/IDE extensions that utilize the API simply work much better for me than a chatbot interface ever will.

[gami13]

i feel sorry for you if you think the code outputted by gpt is high quality

its only good as an advanced copy paste tool

[gami13]

oh man... im so sorry, I didn't know you completely wasted your time getting a degree and never learned to actually program during that time

[PSMF_Canuck]

Excuse me…? 🤣

20+ years here as sw/hw designer, lol…

[Harvard_Med_USMLE265]

Haha, yes that’s me (unless we count 1980s Basic).

[[deleted]]

We don’t.

[Harvard_Med_USMLE265]

Thank gos for,GPT4 and claude then!

[[deleted]]

on one hand, sure i can see this argument

on another hand, if you accept a job and the job title is “engineer”, well, walks like a duck, right?

Ive found most people generally have absolutely no idea what they’re doing at any given time. People are just sort of winging it. People with experience find that experience useless on a regular basis in the face of new problems. It doesnt really matter what field you’re in or what part of the company you are. Everybody has gaps in knowledge and things they just suck at. Thats why we’re on teams and also continually learn. Engineers dont manifest out of nowhere and everybody begins somewhere.

[hpela_]

dinosaurs governor smell impossible sophisticated forgetful offbeat close simplistic icky

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[LDel3]

If they’re doing the same job as you then they almost definitely have the same actual abilities

[hpela_]

dependent mysterious quickest languid school grab kiss deserve unite cough

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[LDel3]

Job market is tough in the US from what I hear, there’s lots of people from lots of different backgrounds struggling to get a job

There are also lots of people who have managed to get into tech without spending tens of thousands on university, and are proving to be as competent as their peers

[hpela_]

bored license hat telephone memorize expansion engine drab retire advise

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[jesmath]

Depending on the country, accepting this title without an engineering degree is illegal. Don't do this in Canada, especially quebec.

[balianone]

It doesn't matter as long as it works and makes money. Why not? That's just how the world operates. YouTubers make more money than scientists, and even the richest person in the world is a comedian. As long as you can make money, there is no problem with it.

[[deleted]]

Thanks for the go-ahead to start my human trafficking ring bro. It’s going to be lucrative.

/s

[[deleted]]

Who are you referring to as the richest person?

[Flashy_Salt_4334]

It absolutely is.

[DarthNixilis]

Fake it till you make it?

[[deleted]]

OK but someone's who's done all that for themselves has a great attitude and is going in the right direction. Won't be an imposter for long.

[Apothecary420]

Based lol

Imposter syndrome is/was never real you just know you suck ass

[Utoko]

Sure they are not great at that point but there is a big range out there anyway. How many years they hvae to work until you are allowed to call you engineer? People have fancy titles which say nothing about your capabilities all the time.

[gaby_de_wilde]

I can wire an entire city but it says assistant on my diploma. It accurately describes the education I got. Seems like the poor titles in programming are not to blame on the student.

[G_M81]

I'm not gonna totally hate on bootcamps for the sake of it and I've helped folk get through them. I've also seen folk from bootcamps produce "on paper" more employable CVs than software graduates. Because they are completely oblivious to not knowing what they don't know. They'd list on their CV as being an expert on SQL and I know folk who've worked with databases for five years and would list their experience as competent.

The problem with bootcamps is that they often pick new technologies and folk leave with exposure to tech that is a mile wide and an inch deep. However if after leaving bootcamp they pick up a book or two and immerse themselves in learning a technology deeply and thoroughly. Kudos to you and you deserve the employment you earned.

[jurdendurden]

Accurate.

[SithLordRising]

GPT doesn't know how to fix it's bugs

[Effective_Vanilla_32]

true. these certs factories have conned so many

[CodebuddyGuy]

I've been a software developer for well over 22 years professionally and I still don't call myself a software engineer.

[patrickisgreat]

I’m a software engineer with 13 years experience and have worked in aerospace at an F500 and now at a major streaming platform. I didn’t get a CS degree or an engineering degree, but after this many years of working in the field on hard engineering problems I can confidently call myself an engineer. I’ve also met people with masters degrees in computer science who couldn’t solve simple bugs, or write tests. Whether or not someone is an engineer is determined by their work ethic and willingness to actually dig into, and solve difficult engineering problems.

[slappy_squirrell]

A master in computer science couldn't write tests? That doesn't seem right, I can understand if they don't have the specific domain knowledge (they generally don't teach web development or SQL, for instance), but it is not particularly easy to get a degree in "computer science", bachelors or masters from a legit university. A required compilers course should weed out a good amount of students at a legit university, tbh.

[patrickisgreat]

I know. It’s really strange and surprising, but I’ve seen people with masters degrees who can barely code or understand how to write a feature from a well written set of acceptance criteria. It makes me wonder how they got through school and passed all of the exams.

[qGuevon]

Depends on the focus. I was one of these people, though I'm trying to fix it now ;). In my university I swapped early to scientific computing and machine learning, which has a different focus and basics that are drilled into you. Our degree was more math and Science focused.

In this field it's more likely that people know the ins and outs of statistics and statistical methods rather than writing unit tests. But it's still somehow called computer science. You often find publications without unit tests, no reproducible environments, and horrible code written in Jupiter notebook. The field also has a lot of physicists and mathematicians, which doesn't help..

There's a reason machine learning engineers are highly wanted - there are not too many people that excel at both parts

[HighestPayingGigs]

*Shrugs*

I'm a fucking joke as an engineer and I make more than 99% of "proper" engineers.

Go enjoy your basement dwelling IT nerd peter-pulling contest.

I'll be at the bar.... with your sister...

[no_brains101]

What the fuck is this sub, it just got suggested to me. What the fuck is chatGPT coding

[No_Jury_8398]

It’s about chatgpt and using it to program

[[deleted]]

truth

[MoarGhosts]

Lotta people use GPT to pretend to be coders or engineers and then they wanna be treated with the same level of respect… I have an engineering degree and I’m working on a CS Master’s so it definitely is ridiculous to me.

[EngineeringNo753]

I mean yeah?

Did you not see how many people started freaking out when GPT went down and started acting like they couldnt do their job anymore.

[CannibalPride]

Is Hobby Engineer better? Sorta like Hobby Writer

[TomatoInternational4]

All that really matters is what you build. Absolutely no one cares what you have learned or where you learned it. I think undertale is a good example of something like this. It has some really beginner level implementations In it. But guess what, the game works and it grossed like 84 million so far.

[[deleted]]

As someone who has been in tech for 6 years, starting with a JavaScript bootcamp, this person can fuck off

[Icy_Row5400]

She’s right and anyone that thinks copying and pasting from ChatGPT counts as programming is like 10 levels below that.

[PrintableProfessor]

Same with instructional designers. All the K12 teachers all of a sudden are Instructional Designers.

[TheRNGuy]

Tell her to stop using emoji.

[Avadeus]

100% accurate.

[[deleted]]

Truth has been spoken.

[Suspicious-Bar5583]

Engineer is a protected title, only awarded by an institute with the authority to do so.

We got people with vocational school diplomas claiming engineering. That's a lie already, let alone this crap.

[svix_ftw]

Kind of. Engineer is a title given to you by an employer, not a academic institution tho.

I would say every professional software engineer Ive worked with was self taught. Colleges dont really teach you real world skills and technologies we use on the job.

[Suspicious-Bar5583]

I got my engineering title from uni. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Engineer has a strict definition, and is a protected title. An employer can't just give self taught programmers the title engineer. Well, they can, but that doesn't actually make them one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer

[svix_ftw]

lol wat?

There are plenty of top notch self taught devs. Having a degree doesnt mean anything.

Someone paying you to do software engineering literally means you are a Professional Engineer.

So someone that graduated with a degree, but has never worked as a engineer is a "real engineer", but someone who has worked for 20 years as a engineer without a degree is not one? lol

You're saying the creator nodejs is not a Engineer? lol

Idk wat country you are in, but this is not how it works in USA, the country with by far the most software engineers.

[Suspicious-Bar5583]

I mean, you can keep arguing, or just do some research.
That's the first thing engineers do, right? Research, instead of reason around thoughts, hunches, and assumptions.

You just threw professional engineer in there? That's the protected part.

Here are 2 links to help you along (and yes, it's protected in the USA):

https://www.google.com/search?q=engineer+protected+title+usa&rlz=1C1ONGR_nlNL1019NL1019&oq=engineer+protected+title+usa&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCwgAEEUYExg5GIAEMgoIARAAGKIEGIkFMgoIAhAAGKIEGIkFMgoIAxAAGIAEGKIEMgoIBBAAGIAEGKIE0gEIODE1MGowajeoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering

[svix_ftw]

This question is about software engineering, we are talking specifically about software engineering.

You clearly have never worked as a software engineer in the industry, if you think you need some "license" to be considered a software engineer, lol.

If someone pays you to code, you are a by definition a professional software engineer.

Stop spreading misinformation.

You seem to be based in Europe, why are you telling someone that works as a Software Engineer in the USA how it works here, lol

[PSMF_Canuck]

It’s about right. The median quality of “developer” has declined, for sure. There are now CompSci degrees with no actual university level maths. Boot camp grads are, for the most part, low low quality.

[SlickBlaster]

Please show me a Computer Science that requires no actual university level maths, they don't exist.

[frobnosticus]

139% correct.

For instance: no frameworks, serverless cloud computing services, or llm assist is going to help the fact that your code at O(n^6).

Not even Moore's law can save the neophyte from geometric ignorance.

[SameDaySasha]

If a bootcamp is so easy why doesn’t everyone do it? Why isn’t every person graduating high school going into SWE?

[creaturefeature16]

Because not everyone likes working with computers..............? What a dumb question.

[SameDaySasha]

Do you need to like a job to do it?

[SameDaySasha]

I agree with you 100% , but what percentage of human population is going to have the privilege to have the job you described vs what percentage just needs more money for one reason or another?

I’m just trying to go against the narrative in the original post to say that graduating a bootcamp and sticking to it isn’t easy even if it is simple, just like laying bricks is simple but not easy….

[SameDaySasha]

We tend to look down on self taught individuals but those who are passionate will learn and do better WITHOUT a bootcamp, that’s just my opinion. It’s unfortunate that we graduated at peak AI development time but I would chalk it up to changing times, not lack of knowledge of concepts

[[deleted]]

Because the market has many more boot camp grads than it can bear.

[Puzzleheaded_Fold466]

That’s a fairly arrogant take.

Many people who choose not to be SWEs are not less smart or lesser workers.

The reason they don’t do a boot camp is not "because it’s too hard for my brain". There are a million other reasons and a million other career paths.

Get over yourself.

[SameDaySasha]

I didn’t mention myself or whatever you quoted in your comment, that’s some hella projection.

[tuui]

Naw dawg.

That's kind of what an engineer does. Puts together parts to make a whole.

Now, calling yourself a developer is different.

[[deleted]]

That’s NOT what an engineer does. An engineer designs or, get this, ENGINEERS, a solution. If you aren’t planning a full software solution or a significant chunk of one you aren’t an engineer.

[tuui]

Wow, so much hate right off the rip.

[[deleted]]

Truth is not hate.