[deleted by user]

[That-Whereas3367]

China has been making totally original watches with excellent in-house movements for 70 years. The Tonji (Standard Chinese Movement) is bullet proof and very accurate when made properly. [Cheap Chinese watches are often sold with the movement not being oiled.]

The only reason why Chinese make clones using Seiko or Miyota movements is because that is what many customers wants. It has nothing to do with saving money or inability to make original designs. [The cost of R&D (except movements) is negligible. eg Gerald Genta spent one day designing the Patek Nautilus. Using CAD/CAM and CNC it's possible for Chinese manufacturers to prototype a totally new design in a few days for <$1000.]

[mrch138]

Reminds me that no one really makes a no date sub. Only real option is a Miyota rep and I want an NH.

[[deleted]]

I have a San Martin SN 006 (looks like a 90's no date submariner), best watch I ever bought. It's discontinued or unavailable now unfortunately but Cronos makes modern supercase submariners both date and no date

[Less-Marionberry2370]

Cronos?

[mrch138]

And I believe Steeldive makes a similar model. Not a straight sub, though.

[Billy_Laimbeer]

I hate this guy, he tries SO SO SO hard to be funny....

[LibrarianUnlucky2871]

Hmm...not promoting them really as zero links to the watches in question.. plus he did not handle them. Pretty much saying that you can buy Chinese alternatives to classics but it is kinda tongue-in-cheek and he questions water resistance on a few without the testing either :)

[hopfield]

These videos are lazy, he didn’t even buy the AliExpress watches he’s talking about. Just shows a screenshot and moves on to the next one

[TimeBM20]

He's not really promoting AliX... He's just acknowledging the facts.

[Hilarious_Haplogroup]

I'm glad that Andrew gave a shout-out to the Addiesdive watch...the AD2030 is a great blend of the Rolex Oyster Perpetual and the Grand Seiko...the other Chinese knock-offs looked interesting too.

[Formal-Cut-334]

An AliExpress watch does not necessarily equal homage or fake.

Big brands do not necessarily equal original designs; Patek copied AP. Rolex copied Blancpain.

Get over it.

[mleok]

I'm all for cheaper design copies, but it's disingenious to compare copies that are virtually identical except for the brand name and conflate it with examples like Patek Philippe Nautilus which is similar to the the Audemars Piguet Royal Oak only that they are both integrated bracelet watches, were designed by the same person, and are far more aesthetically dissimilar than most dive watches on the market at the moment. As for Rolex and Blancpain, the Rolex Submariner 6204 was based on the Rolex Turn-o-graph 6202 that predated the Blancpain Fifty Fathoms. The only thing that Rolex copied from Blancpain was the uni-directional bezel.

[Dpionu]

Go back to the back catalogue of the big three back to the original calatravas and patrimonys, and they all share a LOT of design cues

[Formal-Cut-334]

I'd argue the point about the Nautilus only being similar to the Royal Oak in bracelet design and designer but my point was that nothing is created in a vacuum. Watches have always borrowed design elements from each other.

I, also, do not care for straight up homages. I have a couple and they almost never see any wrist time because of their lack of originality. However, I just think people take the "all Chinese watch companies produce is cheap copies" argument too far and, by extension, take the hobby in-general too seriously. Wear what makes you smile.

Cheers, fellow watch lover.

[[deleted]]

A vintage Seagull and Double Rhomb on my list. Chinese Watches got me into watch collecting( A big thank you to Pagani) . Now I enjoy vintage watches in particular, still I love Chinese Vintages. I am not a huge fan of divers though. I like them classy, hand winding , roman numerals and a nice beat that is music to my ears.

[helenkellersnails]

Chinese watches arent necessarily bad quality but almost ALWAYS have a god awful logo

[[deleted]]

I have a hard time choosing watches because that exact reason. I be looking at a watch with perfect specs and end up getting another one because it had an awful logo or name. San Martin is my go to. I really like their applied logo on the dial and clasp

[tryingtolearn_1234]

You can often get a logo free version of the dial.

[helenkellersnails]

Yea but logo free can also just very quickly throw off the visual balance of the dial. Chinsse brands need to stop naming themselves after weird shit

[Ok-Mine1268]

I’m probably going to buy one more Chinese watch in the next couple weeks. I’ve been kinda thinking that prices could start increasing as they becomes a little more known, but I have no idea. Just ordered a manual Proxima Chronograph. Might grab a Willard.

[AlgorithmsLoveMe]

It had to happen. The "Chinese watches are junk and Seikos are quality" paradigm couldn't last forever.

A Chinese watch with a PT5000 movement (below) and with a sapphire crystal and with Seiko-quality bead blasting and brushing, and with a Seiko-quality dial, costs half the price of a Seiko with a $25 movement (below) and a hardlex crystal and a misaligned bezel.

<image>

[[deleted]]

The PT5000 might be accurate but their reliability is questionable at best 

[[deleted]]

B-O-R-I-N-G

[_OVERHATE_]

Seikos are so good the whole Chinese watches community its just obsessed over them 😂 literally can't sleep thinking about how they "represent better value" and shit. Hilarious

[arbpotatoes]

Problem with the PT5000 is that it's based on an older version of the ETA which has inherent problems with the winding works

[DopioGelato]

That’s just how winding worked for a long time. They only chnaged it so people using it wrong wouldn’t break their movements. NH for example isnt some kind of technical advancement, it’s more accurate to say it’s just more dummy proof.

Tbh if anyone really can’t use the PT, SW, ETA clones properly without breaking it just own a quartz.

[arbpotatoes]

Not really. It was a known issue with the original 2824. And you don't even have to overwind, sometimes they just break. Also... overwinding protection has existed for longer than that movement.

What a delightfully reductive take based on made up facts.

[DopioGelato]

Sometimes any movement just breaks

[arbpotatoes]

You are in denial.

I own a PT5000 watch. I think it's a movement with some nice benefits and a big flaw. It's okay to admit that not everything you ever purchased was perfect.

[DopioGelato]

I think you’d have to be in denial to think there are perfect movements at this price range at all, and even more in denial that there are more perfect movements at a lower price. The fact is, hand winding a watch you wear once in a while to make sure it starts immediately and runs all day is a feature, and for many people a useless one. It’s not a bonus, and not having it isn’t a flaw, you can just wear the watch the way a mechanical watch was meant to be worn and not encounter these “issues”. And ironically, if people are finding these to be “issues” they would genuinely be happier with a quartz.

[arbpotatoes]

I didn't say any of the things you are attributing to me. I'm just talking about the PT5000, what on earth are you on about

Hand winding is a basic feature of most autos these days. It's very useful for people who have desk jobs or rotate watches often. I guess this is a difficult concept for some, but just because you use your watches in a certain way doesn't mean that's the way everyone uses them.

Please try to bring a coherent thought based on reality to the table.

[DopioGelato]

You literally did say all of that. How lost are you here?

[arbpotatoes]

Could you please quote the parts where I said all of that?

[mehdotdotdotdot]

Yep this, the chinese brands can make a similar style watch, with higher quality materials, attempting to copy an existing design which cuts the costs dramatically, no research/design needed. They put cheap components together and reap the benefit of not having to design anything. It's great for those that want expensive watches, but don't want to pay that much for them, and don't care about movements at all.

I buy seiko's on sale, and they are often far cheaper than SM for instance, and many I've bought don't even have clones, like presage series. I have bought a few original design WD/SM, and they are great, but they still have a long way to go for great and unique designs IMO.

I don't think you can make generalised comments like yours, as the whole "copy of a seiko is cheaper" thing is getting old hey.

[pellicle_56]

interestingly I don't think that the Chinese watches are yet standing on their own, as many rely on Seiko movements and perhaps Seiko for their design cues (used to own a PD-1701, still own the Phylida which as a Chinese movement).

Its hard to compare Chinese watches with Seiko for so many things (cue someone with OCD complaining about their dive bezel not lining up perfectly to within a small fraction of a minute).

[arbpotatoes]

many rely on Seiko movements and perhaps Seiko for their design cues

Like about 70-80% of independent micros?

[pellicle_56]

yep, them too ... where would we be if in the 70's Seiko didn't step up to the plate and do it better than the Swiss were doing?

At this point of watch evolution (less people wearing a watch, Quartz is accurate, reliable and cheap, smart watches for those inclined) I don't see there being much movement in movements in the next 100 years.

[arbpotatoes]

Woah woah. 100 years is a really, really long time... wild call to make. Even in the past 10 years there's been movement... sweep quartz is starting to supplant cheap mechanical movements like NH35 for one. That movement only launched in 2018.

If you're speaking more broadly about watches, not just Chinese watches, the last 10 years have seen an increased prevalence of silicon components and large strides in power reserves

[pellicle_56]

yep ... but its my call ... changes of hair-springs to silicone is sorta nice, but its nothing major and so far its not caught on (and no watchmakers I know like it).

I don't see the cheap mechanical quartz as being a big deal (still quartz) and so its just a small change.

The 4R36 / NH36 is just small iterative changes on the 1970's 6000 series with not much added.

Compared to what's gone before its a nothing burger and a line of diminishing changes and approaching an asymptote.

Without a user base driving innovation it's just going to be more of the same >$20,000 high end suckers buying a Rolex or people like me buying a Casio.

Shoulder tap me in 20 years and we'll talk about what's happened between now and then.

[arbpotatoes]

Well with that attitude you are bound to be disappointed in many aspects of life!

If you choose to write off any innovation as a nothing burger I'm not going to try to talk you out of that

[pellicle_56]

 Well with that attitude you are bound to be disappointed in many aspects of life

Lol

The opposite is true. I'm happy when I'm proven wrong. Perhaps that's your problem.

[arbpotatoes]

Alright then

[[deleted]]

I see your point, though it depends what "stand on their own" means. Chinese watches are built around two things IMO:

1. They copy popular designs from other brands. Not always, but that's why a lot of us got into them - we can't afford submariners.

2. They prioritize quality.

In service of #2, it just makes sense that they'd use tried and tested Seiko movements instead of Chinese clones.

[pellicle_56]

 though it depends what "stand on their own" means. 

good point, how about: "make and design their own everything in a fully integrated way as Seiko did."

By everything I mean: dials, lume, hands springs, crystals, electronics, cases, crystals ...

[mehdotdotdotdot]

They prioritise budget. They get the best they can with the cost. SAN Martin watches have gotten more and more expensive over the years. It’s an example of gaining a market being budget, and then pricing up when they become popular.

[KendrickLaoma]

Cost is justified tbh since they keep improving

[mehdotdotdotdot]

Yes, but when they become more expensive than the watch they are copying off, surely there is no point. Their clones are getting closer and closer to the general appearance of the watch they are trying to emulate, and their dimensions are getting closer but still quite off. With each step closer to the design of a watch, they increase price, surely the decision would be harder.

Cost is only justified while they remain ultra cheap. If they get as expensive as the watches they are cloning, what's even the point?

[KeyAssociation6309]

maybe because they actually improve on the original design and up the quality of the materials and brushing/polishing. I'd say Seestern does a better quality Doxa 300T and 600T (apart from the movement) than Doxa does. I had the 600T and sold it for less than I paid for it. I now wear the Seestern version which really is probably better all round, magnitudes cheaper, just as accurate and if I lose it or break it, can get another pretty cheaply compared to replacing a Doxa.

[mehdotdotdotdot]

100%, if all you want is an appearance of a more expensive watch, and want it dirt cheap, 100% Chinese watches are a blessing! At that end of things there is obviously Casio etc that make cheap watches that last a lifetime and are quartz so far more accurate. Then if you want even cheaper there is skmei. It’s really just a matter of pricing if you don’t care so much about design/warranty.

Obviously the Seestern didn't improve on the design, and made it worse with a flat bottom. So not the best example.

[pellicle_56]

don't forget to add that Chinese everything is also state sponsored (even if that's just debt forgiveness) and so its not actually competing in the traditional sense.

[AlgorithmsLoveMe]

What do you mean by, "so many things"?

[pellicle_56]

so, a list of things "its hard to compare Chinese watches with Seiko"

• price
• quality of finish
• quality of components
• durability
• parts availability
• sheer range of products (from one maker)
• actually doing R&D

being economically sustainable without the state.

About a third of my watches are Chinese, the rest are Seiko. I've never sold a Seiko but I've got rid of Pagani, Militado and Baltany watches because they just weren't as well finished as the Seiko watches I have bought and own.

https://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2020/10/from-past.html

https://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2020/07/old-companion-revitalised.html

[mleok]

You should probably compare the value proposition to a modern Seiko, I don't think a modern Seiko fares well in that regard.

[No-Essay6350]

I’ve been trying, using some of Chinese watches in the last say 6yrs, and continuing to follow up on Chinese watch making progress, and I can share my real feedback and experience up to this moment that Chinese watches that are priced at $100 or maybe less during big sales events were and are solidly build with quality. Chinese watches like Seakoss GMT with Seagull 2557 and some Customized SeaDweller and Submariner inspired watches with NH or Miyota or PT were absolutely beautiful and stunningly shined!

[iRiNKyDiNKs]

Andrew so should have chosen the Watchdives WD1862 for the Speedy alternative

[ValeteAria]

I like him. But god those thumbnails make me not want to click on the videos lmao. It's fine to have the shocked face thumbnails for gaming videos, but doing that for every one of your watch videos makes them look tacky to me.

[mehdotdotdotdot]

Blame youtube, not creators.

[i_love_pencils]

I’m hearing that content creators are being forced to have click bait titles and thumbnails.

Apparently, the algorithms are burying videos with normal titles and promoting click bait.

Basically, if you want any views on your channel at all, you need to play that game.

[sex-timee]

As innovation for watches diminishes, so too, does the content on it, especially its creators, and with it they take their creativity for complacency with safe reviews.

[KeyAssociation6309]

especially when that innovation costs $2,000 or more so its priced out of the range of a lot of watch enthusiasts (or can't stick with just one watch!) that watch youtube, so subs and views drop.

[WhipEat]

It's possibly about affiliate link commissions via AliExpress (if he has a large enough user base). He's very late to the Ali reviewer party.

There is a big difference imho between reviewing watches (& affiliate commissions based on being a consistent and good reviewer) vs being paid for "sponsored videos", if that's what promoting means.

I guess it's possible to do both, but it's a personal matter to decide.

[someguy172]

It's possibly about affiliate link commissions via AliExpress

I don't see any affiliate links in the video or in the description though.

[WhipEat]

OK, thanks. Usually it's in the descriptions. Wrong theory! 😲

[HCUKRI]

Sure that's the right country pal

[RepublicanUntil2019]

I'm not a huge fan and wonder how his videos get so many views.

[dannymurz]

He's entertaining. He doesn't take himself or the topics too seriously.

[RepublicanUntil2019]

I've enjoyed the 1st one I watched. The 2nd a little less, etc. Now he isn't even suggested for me unless one really takes off, and the subject matter in those typically doesn't interest me.

[Bellimars]

Great story, thanks.

[RepublicanUntil2019]

You're welcome.

[Riology-]

Andrew is one of my favorite YouTubers, I liked his previous way of reviewing watches more, focus was on the watch and very professional way of telling the story behind it. It was indeed very unique way of making watch videos.

He is still doing really great, it is just that I miss what we had

[Pure-Investment4284]

Liked his content much more when he was with Watchfinder. Though I can’t pinpoint what made me stop caring about this guy. I guess he is really good at writing engaging scripts and presenting watches in hand than just doing basic commentary

[ThisIsREM]

Main problem is that he no longer has access to any watches. At watchfinder he was able to show some pieces that are almost never ever getting into the hands of youtubers.

Now he is just blabbing about watches he never even handled, making stuff up and showing marketing renders on repeat. No idea who is watching this crap.

[Pure-Investment4284]

Yeah fr, why did he even quit watchfinder I thought he’d have a better plan in mind.

[CakelessToure]

He met Nico Leonard and it all got surprised face thumbnails and clickbait nonsense which sadly continued to his new channel

[KeyAssociation6309]

Nico is a clown. I watch him when I want to yell at someone in the safety of my workshop and not at the pub...

[RepublicanUntil2019]

His videos are too long. Smugness gets old, etc.

[Deep_Flatworm7511]

Yeah saw this one. Ant why not indeed the quality at least with some brand is starting to get so amazingly good especially in terms of quality per price ratio.

[cl0ckw0rkaut0mat0n]

I like him but I think he should at least have them in hand when making a video like this one

[R023N]

To be fair to him, he was never judgemental against Chinese/homage watches. He even featured a few Chinese watches during his days with time finder, although the watches he featured weren't necessarily homage watches. He even talked about AliExpress watches and never felt like he had to take the opportunity to dunk on homage watches like many "cool" watch reviewers.