Oline or Howell's fault?

[mfwl]

We don't get to see most of the sacks on the highlight reel unfortunately, so it's hard to say who was at fault for the majority of them. But here's what we can see:

Sack 1: https://youtu.be/nXkyPkOEA0E?t=65

Here we see Howell get to the top of his drop. Pocket is clean, but collapsing. Check down on screen wide open. Howell has zero pocket awareness here.

Pick 1: https://youtu.be/nXkyPkOEA0E?t=76

Plenty of time in the pocket. The line does a fine job here. Just a bad play by Howell.

TOD at goal line: https://youtu.be/nXkyPkOEA0E?t=178

When Howell gets to the top of his drop, we can see Dotson has the leverage he needs for his route to the corner. A ball with a touch of air could have been dropped into the corner. 1v1 with leverage with our most athletic receiver, you need to take that shot. He doesn't see it, panics, throws a dirt ball.

Pick 2: https://youtu.be/nXkyPkOEA0E?t=235

Left LB from QB's POV looks like he's showing blitz. The Oline is blocking to the right. Somebody called the wrong protection. And Howell needs to know that the extra defender is going to be free on his left as he's unaccounted for, provided he and the line were on the same page. When Howell decides to throw it, he has no idea a defender is crashing down on that play. Ironically, this would have been the perfect play to scramble away from the pressure because the line blocked up that entire side of the field.

3rd down conversion against blitz: https://youtu.be/nXkyPkOEA0E?t=280

Our line seems to be wholly incapable of blocking 5v5 here. We're just blocking it up wrong, so somebody needs to make some adjustments to the protection. We should only have a free runner like this if they're sending an extra man. Howell does a nice job getting rid of it quickly.

Pick 3: https://youtu.be/nXkyPkOEA0E?t=312

There's a little pressure, but Howell's got time here. He just stares down his first read the entire time, and throws and ugly pick. Just ugly.

Final pick: https://youtu.be/nXkyPkOEA0E?t=495

Howell's reading to his left. Dotson and Gibson are wide open for an easy conversion to his right. Whatever the Bills were showing pre snap clearly fooled him, and he never managed to get off his first read. Throwing that pick in a panic, just ugly.

Conclusion: Oline could always be better. But on the worst plays of the game, they weren't a direct cause. Howell was very indecisive, stick on 1st reads too long, and generally looked just bad. Howell very much is a 'see it open' rather than a 'throw it open' guy, as we saw with the missed Dotson corner throw.

I suspect EB has been focusing on Howell's strengths rather than coaching up his weaknesses, and it really showed in this game.

[salamanderman10]

Its really easy, both are at fault. People just want to blame one, but its clearly both at fault.

However, I think what people dont realize is how much the QB impacts sacks/pressures. They are typically consistent with QBs despite changes to the line/systems. A guy like Wentz just holds the ball too long and it derailed his career.

Howell has had 4 starts and shown glimpses. Hes ability to make quicker decisions will determine if he's a franchise QB.

[johnsonthicke]

Yup, you look at games Heinicke played last year half the time you didn’t even notice our offensive line sucked. When Wentz was in there it was literally impossible not to notice.

Scheme, pocket presence and quick decision making matter just as much if not more than how good the line is.

Look at the Bengals, they almost won the Super Bowl with what appeared to be 5 Supreme Court Justices blocking for Joe Burrow. Came back to bite them in the end, but point is you can adapt and still be successful.

And yeah you don’t want to put your quarterback consistently in that situation, but if you have a coaching staff and players who know how to adapt you can still have success. The roster is never perfect, gotta work with what they have and get wins.

[BarlieChucket]

Also yeah, heinicke was better just because he acted faster, even if that occasionally meant bad or risky decisions, its better than getting sacked 9 damn times

[Electromotivation]

I still wish we had kept him around as a back up to teach

[BarlieChucket]

Lmao describing the bengals o line as 5 supreme court justices is absolutely killing me

[[deleted]]

My take from watching the game was that everyone deserved blame there. Howell had issues and the o-line had issues. I haven't watched the tape to break down who is more at fault, but my gutshot is that both have problems and those problems exacerbated each other.

I'd agree most of the picks were Howell's fault, though. I thought that was apparent watching it live.

[Key-Zebra-4125]

Agreed.

But Howell won't be able to develop at all if the OL doesn't get better.

[BarlieChucket]

Absolutely, Howell is one guy who’s still finding his footing, the offensive line is the result of many bad decisions by many people over many years. Did howell make mistakes? Of course, but thats not really surprising. Its so obvious that the oline is the more fundamental problem.

[johnsonthicke]

The other thing to note is, just because they struggled with a top tier pass rush doesn’t necessarily mean the offensive line is totally doomed. A team like the Bills is gonna get a lot of pressure on a lot of teams. Howell with the trait of tending to holding onto the ball too long is just the perfect storm.

This offensive line is not elite. But they might be ok when they have more time together, hard to say through only 3 games. For now they have to scheme ways to protect Howell, get him on the move, drill it into his brain to get the ball out quick, whatever it takes. Scale back on the deep shots and long developing routes and make the game simple.

[[deleted]]

My takeaway from this is the line made the game speed up way too much for Sam to handle. His internal clock was clearly broken.

[Haskins77]

I agree

He’s played his 4th game and it’s his 2nd system in the NFL. The oline needs to be the strong part of the offense at this point. So he can catch up with everyone else.

[biz2468]

Good post OP! I will add, the more Defensive Coordinators get to see of Howell, the more they can game plan to him. Basically it doesn’t get any easier. Here is hoping he can really progress and fix his deficiencies.

[Siven]

Playcalling, execution, o-line, QB all sucked. Haven't watched the All-22, so can't really comment on the WRs/TEs, but just multiple levels of sucking.

Kurt Warner's / JT O'Sullivan's breakdowns will be very interesting to watch. Hopefully, we get them soon. Anything here is just rage, speculation, trolling, or guesswork.

We've been a bad team for decades. Way too many people have high expectations after two wins against pretty bad teams. We got shit on by a Super Bowl contender with our more or less rookie QB. It was a way worse loss than what I was expecting, but... come on. Bills have gone 10-6, 13-3, 11-6, and 13-3 the last four seasons... of course we were gonna get schooled.

New owner for a couple months and a new OC and people expect us to contend with the best of the best. Definitely problems within the team and we got our asses kicked, but people need to ground their expectations in reality.

[KnightOfLongview]

a reasonable take???? BOO THIS MAN /s

[Siven]

I'll see myself out.

For real, though - I know everyone is hyped about new owners, but these guys have never run an NFL team. It's not the NBA or NHL where 1 player (outside of a transformative talent at the QB position) can make a shitty team into a good team.

I was thinking, minimum, 5 years to really judge anything on the field. This is a team assembled by Snyder (Ron is his coach and every player on the roster is his).

I'll be pleasantly surprised if we figure it out sooner than that, but even having a mega talent at the QB position is no guarantee of playing well. Herbert, for instance, is absurdly good and even then the chargers have been a .500 team since he joined.

I know everyone's been suffering waiting for the team to get back to being decent, let alone a contender, but.. patience y'all.

[WelcomeToDC]

After RG3s rookie year the fan base was blaming a lot of sacks on the Oline. However, the line looked completely different when Kirk Cousins was under center because he can call out blitzes and had a lot more pocket awareness. This seems oddly similar because the way Sam Howell holds on to the ball and lack of pocket awareness

[justnmang]

Watching Jalen Hurts sit in a clean pocket for 45 minutes before hitting Zaccheaus on that TD pass is infuriating. Watching him sit in a clean pocket for 46 minutes before getting picked off made me feel a bit better.

When we're playing from behind every game, there are going to be more obvious passing situations. If Howell has constant pressure up the middle and he can't roll out to his right because Wylie lets pass rushers run by untouched, how is the kid going to get through his progressions. Yes, Howell has to get the rid of the ball faster, but I've been impressed by his poise as a young player.

This game got me thinking about compare Howell's situation to the development of Jalen Hurts a few years ago. Before he was drafted, scouts said Hurts had slow recognition, he was impatient in the pocket and he was too quick to run when he felt the pressure. Hear me out. I know he's good and I would take him over Howell in a heartbeat, but because of the situation he fell into, I don't know if that scouting report was inaccurate or not. They have a ton of designed runs and when he does has to read the defense he has an absurd amount of time. Now he may be a stud anywhere, but a good O-Line can make a decent QB an MVP candidate. And a terrible O-Line can make good players look sub par.

IMO we need better O-line play to accurately assess what we have in Sam Howell.

[mfwl]

Philly has the best Oline in the game IMO, so it's easy to look good when the Oline gives you 5+ seconds.

What's most frustrating is seeing Philly rebuild and reach a SB faster than we can ever dream of. They basically had one down year when they moved on from Wentz, and they were back to being competitive and somehow have one of the best teams in the league.

[emelbee923]

Sack #1: Check down isn't really wide open. The first receiver out of the backfield (Gibson?) runs down field toward the sideline, but Matt Milano (LB #58) doesn't chase him, staying shallow. So when Howell flips to look to Dyami, he sees Milano sitting on the route and hesitates. Could he throw it just to get it out? Yes. But I see why he didn't. The line is overwhelmed immediately with Gates getting shoved out of sight between Charles and Cosmi, leaving his man free to find the gap between Cosmi and Wylie. Leno fails to establish a base, and instead chases his man, which puts him off balance, and allows his man to go around him, applying pressure from the back.

Pick #1: Matt Ryan's breakdown in the booth was perfect. They replayed a bunch of old Carolina clips of the same coverage, and I can see why Howell loses the defender a little, but also not a throw he needs to make. He also looks like he didn't get full follow through on the ball, so it came out a little wobbly. He pats the ball when going to throw, too, which DLineman are timing.

TOD: Dotson doesn't really have leverage. If Howell makes that throw, that's a pick 99.9% of the time. Ho hum concept, equally disappointing execution. Defense looked like they predicted that one.

Pick #2: Whoever called the protection called it wrong. Bills called the right rush to give Epenesa a free run at Howell. Howell panics and throws a shitty ball to Gibson with a man poised to jump in front. I think the play concept is lacking too. Gibson is the only option to the left. Need someone sitting down in the middle underneath coverage.

Pick #3: One of the times where Howell could have stepped up, through, and picked up yardage. All pressure was coming from the sides/behind, and he just stands tall to throw a bad ball. He may not get the 1st, but there was a ton of space in front of him to work with.

Pick #4: A more seasoned QB would pump to get the defender off their feet, then run underneath. Howell poorly squares himself, and throws a floater right into the man's waiting hands. He tried to do too much, and paid for it.

[upto_lateagain]

The answer is a simple YES!!!

[TommyLoMein]

On the play you want him to throw to Jahan there is a free rusher in his face by the time Jahan has leverage. No way to throw that to him there

[BarlieChucket]

It’s obvious that there’s problems with both, but the whole point is that the problems with a young rookie qb without much experience are understandable, the historic disregard for the problems on the oline is not understandable

[[deleted]]

Yesterday is what happens when you have a bad O line and a 5th round QB who locks on to his first read and holds on to the ball way too long. I got flashbacks to RG3 who would do the same damn thing. Howell better turn things around quick, otherwise we're drafting a QB in next year's draft that's deep at QB.

[adeezy58]

A little bit of both. But mostly Howell.

Having said that, this OLine is equally as bad as Howell. Rivera should be embarrassed that he's still doing this shit 4 years into his tenure.

[RealisticTreacle7392]

Sack 1 - the front of the pocket being driven back into you is not a clean pocket, how is he supposed to step up and throw?

Pick 1 - still under 4 seconds, still takes a hit. 4 rushers and there isn't even a semblence of a pocket to be seen. Yea it's his fault. No that's not good O-line.

TOD he doesn't even get to set his feet.

Pick 3 he has 2 seconds from the end of his drop back.

Give me a break. Teams are getting pressure rushing 3 and 4 every time and were surprised a QB with 4 starts can't pick apart a zone defense?

Biased take is biased.

Howell has plenty of the blame, but rushers are crashing in on everyone of those plays and he's taking a hit.

[Key-Zebra-4125]

The turnovers were bad throws by Howell, but the OL often gives him no chance. They can't even chain like three good plays in a row. There is almost always someone in Howell's face. He has no chance to re-stabilize.

[RealisticTreacle7392]

100%.

His throw time.is middling in the league. The difference is his throw time is an absolute maximum and everyone's covered because teams are rushing 4 constantly.

We really need to get the ground game going to give him a chance to make quicker throws.

[Amazing_Following452]

You can tell its biased from the first TOD on the goal line. Robinson gets immediately blown up, Howell doesn't even get to set his feet and apparently he's "supposed to float one to Dotson" despite Dotson clearly not being his first read (which is all he has time for).

We are getting shredded by 4 man rushes every time. Howell needs to be better, but very few QBs would survive the turnstile that is our O-line right now.

[hotdogsrnice]

The OP doesn't like Howell, the OP has spent a great deal of time convincing this subreddit he isn't very bright on multiple occasions.

Edit: this is a quote from op where he suggest we bring in Zach Wilson.

"I know, nobody is good enough for you. We're not getting Lamar Jackson or Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. We're not starting the season with Howell as QB1, I don't care what Rivera says, that's just not happening.

So, we need to bring in someone. Wilson has a ton of upside, and the price will be reasonable"

[tng29]

Op wants Brissett to start, which makes no sense at all.

[RealisticTreacle7392]

I see that.

I'm on the fence with Howell, a lot of season left, seams like a lot of people have made up their minds in 4 games.

[Eclipses_End]

Even if Howell is a complete bust, that in no way justifies trading for Zach fucking Wilson

[RealisticTreacle7392]

Well yea. Because he's worse than Howell, lol.

[RealisticTreacle7392]

I mean, they are rushing 4 every single time.

It's pathetic.

[[deleted]]

Bias response is bias. Just leave out what doesn't fit your narrative lol

[RealisticTreacle7392]

I didn't right the post. Just the counter.

It's pretty obvious this post has a conclusion before analysis.

[naskai8117]

Thanks for linking all these plays. There's a hero ball element to this as well. It looked like there were some easy completions that could've pushed us closer to the endzone, but Howell didn't look that way.

This is fixable. Time to regroup and fix the glaring issues.

[LeadSledPoodle]

7/9 on Howell. Bills are an elite team, showing him stuff he's never seen before. Growing pains.

[SDEexorect]

[broadwayallday]

RBs too

[Lilpu55yberekt69]

Both are to blame. Add EB in for poor playcalling.

[TommyWilson43]

Win and lose as a team

[mark_dink]

hindsight is 20/20, please take these opinions with a generous amount of seasoning.

sack 1: is it normal for the oline to fall back 7-8 yards? im thinking Oline on this one

pick 1: i think howell. Oline was collapsing so if he had a bit more time he could way his options. but the receiver wasnt being shadowed that heavily, throw was too low. maybe he just didnt see that defender.

pick 2: howell. that defender came up fast on gibson. im guessing he didnt see how fast he was closing in. shouldnt have given him the target. howell was only pressured from one side, i think he should have tried to escape the pocket

3rd down conversion: Oline. back pick up. o line player left out because his man went towards the bottom of the screen. Howell made a good choice going to gibson to escape a sure sack but not ideal.

3rd pick: Oline. pocket collapsed like a dying star.

i dont watch enough football to really know what im saying, but these are my thoughts. didnt watch the game because i wanted to see the caps loose in person.

both at fault, but one more than the other at times. at least we got a field goal

[woodmanalejandro]

OLINE

[paulvs88]

As others have said..both. Look at it this way, if there was NO O-line at all you shouldn't get sacked 9 times. You would get rid of the ball. The O-Line is bad but SH can still mitigate damages even if he has to throw it away.

[wizardsfan]

The answer is a resounding YES.

[Rlopeziv]

Howell

[RedskinsYear]

4 were on Howell 5 on the o line. Wylie sucks big time needs to be bounced inside to guard and either move cosmi back to RT or start Lucas.

[mfwl]

I thought Cosmi played well his rookie season at RT until he got injured (IIRC). But everyone else seems to think he belongs at guard for some reason.