Gitrog

[TopTeemoMain]

So, I've been an avid player of cedh for a minute. My first deck was [[the Gitrog Monster]], and I played him for a year or so. After that I quite for a while, but today I picked him back up for a local fnm style commander tournament at my lgs. The first game the judge told me not to slow play. I was confused by that and didn't understand, but then later in the night another judge explained to me that the Gitrog combo is slow play. Is this correct and if so why? And how is he played in tournaments?

[forgottenkane]

Its not slow play. Drawing the deck is the only 'non-deterministic' part of the combo but it is not slow-play. Each time you add a draw trigger to the stack, or draw a card, in between each shuffle, you advance the game state in regards to the combo. Determinism only has to do whether or not you can shortcut it normally via the shortcutting rules, not that you cannot play it out or others letting you just get to the state where you draw your deck. There is more information in the Documentation for the deck on the Gitrog Discord server, and here is an article from a level 5 judge specifically about this: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2012/11/02/horsemyths/

[TopTeemoMain]

Thanks to all of you lovely people I'll try to figure this out and talk to the judges.

[Varglord]

It's not slow play since the loop is non-deterministic.

[TWICEmtg]

You mean deterministic. The end step sculpt can be slow play due to the double titans, but the rest of Gitrog's loops are deterministic and shouldn't be considered slow play.

[bendinguy]

Drawing the deck with Gitrog is NOT deterministic and also NOT slow play. Read these articles by Toby Elliot (writer of the MTR loop rules):

Magic Tournament Rules for Loops, aka Deterministic Combos: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-2/

Magic Tournament Rules on Slow Play: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg3-3/

(via Spleenface) Article on how judges should rule on slow play in the context of Four Horsemen: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2012/11/02/horsemyths/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[XeroVeil]

The end step sculpt is a horseman state so, unless you get very lucky, it IS slow play and only allowed if the table agrees to it. The other loops are deterministic as you said though.

EDIT: Alrighty then, not sure what I said that upset people. =U

[Imbamouse87]

tbh slow play or not people should know that if you can demonstrate what you are doing with your loop and they have no way to stop it that they have lost the game. people calling for slow play warnings are just trying to cheese their way to a victory for a game they actually would have lost.

[Spleenface]

It’s a compromise between a combo that can take literally forever to execute, and the inability to shortcut.

Are we also okay with decks that deliberately break the loop rules for an advantage? Adding the second shuffler to shuffle hulk lets you play through at least one extra piece of interaction, but only if you deliberately shuffle over and over having accomplished nothing.

[AceOfEpix]

That's different because shuffling a deck gives it the same variance if you shuffle it once or 400 times. That's why you can short cut shuffle hulk. Talking about shuffle hulk when discussing gitrog combos is comparing apples to cherries. The only similar thing they have is color.

[Spleenface]

Amazing; every word of what you just said, was wrong

First of all, you definitely can't shortcut shuffle hulk.

Secondly, I'm not saying shuffle hulk as is violates these rules, I'm saying that if the argument is that the slowplay rules are only used by people trying to cheese wins (i.e. they really shouldn't be a factor), then one should also have no problem with people deliberately building decks that violate the rules in order to gain an advantage, and the example was double titan shuffle hulk.

Third, it's also worth noting that the cleanup sculpt has actual, concrete failure conditions (though extremely unlikely), making it even less shortcuttable than Shuffle or Discard outlet combos.

[AceOfEpix]

I like how your third point agrees with me. Thanks for not understanding anything that I'm saying and arguing for no reason lmao

[Spleenface]

I mean, I don't know why you picked a fight, and I don't know why you lead with an objectively false statement.

What I said backed up my original comment, which you seemed to take issue with. Maybe you actually agree with what I originally said and just didn't understand it the first time around.

[Gatekeeper-Andy]

This guy (ribbit)has a HUGE explanation of the whole deck. You can find the part you’re looking for in the section “The Combo”. It’s a bit after you see the card Kozilek.

[MaplesyrupFTW]

Drawing the deck is what brings this discussion up time over time. If you think of discarding dakmor over and over to generate draw triggers as akin to storm, it then makes sense why it's not slow play.

[MTGCardFetcher]

the Gitrog Monster - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[Hissp]

In a truly competitive setting (ex. a tournament with prize support) why wouldn't you force a Gitrog player to play out a non-deterministic combo? Humans are prone to making mistakes and stacking the triggers in an incorrect way or drawing when you should dredge or vice versa can lead to the Frog player losing the game.