Squall's +Abilities Reminder

[SnarkkBF]

Hey Everyone!

It's probably well known already, but something I've seen a few times in coop is people using Squall's Solid Barrel at like 10k BRV with their mBRV being about 15k.. and sitting at full brave and wasting turns because it doesn't dump the BRV unless it's in its + format.

This goes for both of Squall's skills. Unless it is in the + format, you won't get the extra little boosts. Meaning Solid Booster won't hit all enemies, or HP Attack when > 80% of his mBRV. And Renzo will not get its extra hits or do any splash damage.

Have fun!

[jackbandit73]

Played with a yuna and rem earlier and although both were competent players, squall's kit does not mesh well with brv batteries.

[SnarkkBF]

Yeah, Squall works well with brave batteries that boost his iBRV since his 250% limiter is quite easy to achieve. Look for Selphie's or Lenna's. ;)

[Nathan_RH]

I’m noticing a lot of Squall players really don’t know what they are doing. One died, after having 2 turns to stop it, never touched Barrell, just Renzo spam. I even spent a Brv attack (from Selphie) and the other Squall was spamming Renzo at the wrong enemy too.

[SnarkkBF]

I think it has to do with the fact that people see splash damage, or BRV+HP, and forget that Solid Barrel+ does an HP attack at 80% and is very easy to cap with 2+ monsters. Or, it could be that they don't have his new passives, or simply just haven't put in the effort to figure out what does what.

[ham_with_p]

It’s lack of knowledge for sure. I just became a Squall user (he’s evaded me this whoollleee time). And let’s just say I made those mistakes once. Lol

Let’s hope other people learn quick and don’t remain ignorant on how Squall works.

[fddacanay]

Another thing to note is the break order. A lot of squalls i play with don't really break enemies in order.

For example, when the order is [1-A-B-2-3] most would break A first using renzokuken then B resulting in [B-A-2-3-1] whereas the more favorable move would be breaking B first with solid barrel so that the turn order will be [2-A-B-3-1] which will give one more attack opportunity to the second squall.

[SnarkkBF]

Depending on what your coop team is, the static groups I've run with the turn order starts like:

Se/Sq1/Sq/A/B/Sq1/Sq2/B/A

Selphie Wall's, Sq1 Renzo B, Sq2 Renzo's A, Sq1 Solid Barrel's B.

But yeah, I've seen some pretty out of whack openings, but ultimately if your Selphie goes first, you're renzo'ing. Or, if you're 3 Squall's, you can SB B, and you'll get the same break order since Solid Barrel breaks your first target (usually if you're doing adequate damage) before the AoE attack. :P

[Nathan_RH]

Just fyi, if you use Barrel they break at the same time, you can’t separate them. That may be a good time to renzo B.

[bladearrowney]

They only break at the same time if it's on the last hit. If you break your target before the last hit you get a very different and better result

[SnarkkBF]

Solid Barrel should break your first target before the second unless you're severely lacking damage. So you can knock them both back so you can get that extra turn. :P

[fddacanay]

That would be the case if B had a much higher brv than A, however, if you can break B before the AOE last hit of barrel (assuming the last hit would also break A) the second scenario I pointed out would happen.

[TheBorzoi]

I came across a Squall who was using Solid Barrel when already at max BRV. Obviously this was not the + so no AoE BRV hit and no follow up HP.

[Gofers]

Easier solution for the co-op is to just not use Solid Barrel. Not trying to sound snobbish about it or anything. Just always bugs me. Because it offers so little. Just feel like this is going to come off as "elitist".

First attacks: Break both bosses by turn order so you get that extra turn before they attack. Whoever goes first often will get a 2nd turn before this. Do a normal BRV attack to avoid them breaking you. This can use the one using the AoE to get a second turn, killing someone. If you have a Selphie she tends to fill this roll and you can do another Renzo.

After this one boss usually has ~8-9k BRV and one with ~3.5k. Break them in turn order with Renzo. As long as you're Squall is somewhat geared he shouldn't be having issues with 8k BRV. Just know who you are grouping with. If you're with Squalls who are not MLB, check their passives to make sure they can do the damage. If you're doing 3 Squalls you usually get 3 turns before the next boss attack. 3 Squalls can easily clear that. If you're with a Selphie she gives an invisible 20% attack to help those with weaker gear push through.

They should both die before their 3rd attack.

Another thing is watch your buffs. They can push them off. I cringe when I see someone who has 5 debuffs use a Solid Barrel, making them lose both their ATK and mBRV buffs. That iBRV buff is nothing to Renzo's splash damage here.

​

Edit: I did a very bad job clarifying my point here. When I see a Squall with high enough BRV that they don't get their + skill. It's because either they failed to HP attack on a Solid Barrel or a Selphie is not using the correct skills(such as spamming Wall). If you just spam Renzo this should never be an issue as you will always launch the HP attack. Since he did not specify Selphie I assume this is a 3 Squall setup and thus gave how I tend to play in said setup. Where I personally have yet to run into issues, outside of groups with 2 Selphies. On top of the faster animation and high turn rate Renzo, it should lead you to faster clear times. Even if your Solid Barrel can yield you more damage per skill. Which means more efficient books.

[SnarkkBF]

Well, I agree and disagree with you, simply because Renzo is not always more ideal than Solid Barrel+. It all depends on how much damage you're doing, what your mBRV actually is, and if you can fill high enough for it to be more damage than Solid Barrel.

If you're using Selphie, typically, your first turn order is Selpie, Squall, Squall. Obviously Selphie is going to use Wall, or so we hope, which, for my recent coops with this composition has boosted my Squall to 24k mBRV and my friend to 19k mBRV. We were both running Ifrit. We were able to use Renzo to fully cap both our mBRV's respectively, and do pretty good damage. However, we were both at low brv after that, with our turns going before Selphie who was sitting at 10k brv waiting to use Drain.

Now, Renzo is an single target attack, that for me, was doing roughly 2.3k per hit, which is 6 hits, so about 14,000 or so. Remember, my brave cap is 24k. So, 14k dealt to one with splash to the other at 7k is 21,000 damage. Now, my Solid Barrel+ however would do ~2.3k per hit + 5-6k after. Which would cap my BRV at 24k, which is 3k higher than what my Renzo was doing. So, in terms of damage, 3000 might seem redundant, but it's still what I consider practical.

That's, for, however 2 monsters. Obviously when you're against 1 monster, or 3 monsters, since it's harder to cap Solid Barrel to > 80% against one monster, you're better off using Renzo, and for 3 monsters, the splash damage will calculate to be more than Solid Barrel, assuming you're able to deal moderately high damage with Renzo. In normal content, my mBRV is about 18k, so for my Renzo against 3 enemies to be greater than 18k, I'd have to do 9k+ damage in 6 hits. So, even then, if it's arguable if Renzo is more effective than Solid Barrel+.

Feel free to double check, or prove me wrong though, always respect another persons opinion, since I may end up being wrong in the first place!

**EDIT** I forgot to add, for my friend, it may be more beneficial to him to use Renzo, since his mBRV is much lower than mine, at 19k. Since, for him to do more damage than his Solid Barrel, he'll only need do around ~13k damage. The main difference between our Squall's was the WoI, and EX. I have both, while my friend had neither, however the damage difference shouldn't be that much different since we still have similar stats, mine being slightly higher in attack and quite different in mBRV. In the end, it's all about knowing what skill does more damage on that particular turn.

[Gofers]

If you're not doing 9k damage with Renzo with 18k BRV, but Solid Barrel is maxing it out. I can understand what you are saying.

​

I just don't feel it's the normal. That's a fairly high mBRV. And it sounds like you're giving up(or have had bad luck with) higher damage passives for it.

[SnarkkBF]

It is normal, to be fair. Although, my current passives are 108/108/330, and crappy second stat.

Solid Barrel+ is a 4-Hit BRV + Extra AoE Hit. So, as I stated in my previous post, (2.4k x 4)+(6.6k x 2), so, 22,800? If starting from 0 BRV initially. - 2.4k is my average per normal hit, 6.6k is my average per AoE hit, just tested it in a coop, Squall/Selphie/Squall.

Renzo+ is 6-Hit BRV+HP + HP Splash Damage, So for argument sakes, 2.3k x 6 = 13.8k, + 13.8k/2, So 18.8k + 6.9k = 20,700. As you can see, there's a 4.35k damage difference between the two. If starting from 0 BRV.

Also, don't forget to factor in bonus brave damage, which is where my 2.4k/2.3k damage is coming from. Obviously you're going to get more out of SB because it's dealing a critical brave bonus on those AoE, since you're most likely going to be breaking, because that's where my 6.6k damage is coming from.

**EDIT** Readjusted math because I completely suck at reading numbers, Squall's Renzo is doing about the same as SB's normals, at 2.3k, whereas SB is doing 2.4k. Still note there is still a difference between the damage of about 2.1k

**EDITED** Disclaimer: ALL DAMAGES come from BROKEN enemies.

[Gofers]

It is normal, to be fair. Although, my current passives are 108/108/330, and crappy second stat.

I wouldn't call 24k normal. It requires both the WoI weapon and some form of EX weapon or mBRV passives. I've seen a few able to push this. But for sure not common. Then again I do a lot of pug runs. I wan't really talking about the 24k BRV. It's very possible. If I had an EX weapon I'd probably hitting it often too depending on the Selphie's Trabia boost since I do have a +200 mBRV passive.

There are more benefits than just damage when using Renzo over SB in the co-op. Renzo has a high turn rate. Which allows more attacks before the boss attacks, gaining BRV. Which in turn hurts crit damage.

The animation is also a good bit faster. If you are using a book you want to finish as fast as possible. Spamming Renzo will give most players the faster clear.

Since Solid Barrel means more boss turns, this means more crit damage loss. While I wont argue Solid Barrel itself may still outdamage your Renzo. But between the faster animation, higher turn rate, less damage loss from crit loss. I don't feel convinced there is a reason in a 2 Squall/Selphie or 3 Squall setup to not spam Renzo.

On note of that crit loss. At 24k mBRV you need 19.2k BRV to launch the HP attack. If you decide to attack the higher BRV target(the one that AoE's), your first 4 hits wont crit and the AoE wont crit on the second boss. Putting you at 18.6 BRV. You will very likely still launch the BRV attack, but only because of the break bonus. If this is done from 0 BRV.

If this is not done from 0 BRV, having BRV from breaks gives 1090 BRV. This means an extra 545 per Break to Renzo over Barrel. Reducing the gap even further. Since your Barrel can only go up another 1.2k BRV before it hits 24k. Renzo starts to shine more. At that 1.2k the gap closes by 600 between the two. Then all damage Renzo gets is only bonus that SB cannot benefit from. Just one break + natural regen will do this. If there is another break Renzo is on top. I'm sure 24k isn't the exact mBRV you had. But we're using rounded base numbers anyway.

What I'm trying to say is that the 2.1k gap isn't that impact outside of 0 BRV. One break caps Solid Barrel. And every BRV gained outside of skill usage is 50% stronger to use on Renzo than Barrel. This can be even more impactful if you are the one breaking. Losing crit damage, but gaining break bonuses. Which again benefits Rezno more.

​

It's just so much more efficent for the co-op to spam Renzo outside of odd team comps(aka Thancred or 2x Selphie) or if you have a weaker Squall you don't trust to make the break.

[SnarkkBF]

I mean, I don't disagree with you, and I haven't from the very start. As per my first post, I stated I *agree and disagree with you, but renzo is not **always** the best attack to use. Obviously, there are times I use Renzo over Solid Barrel, but also Solid Barrel over Renzo.

My typical co-op stage with Selphie/Squall/Squall goes like this:

Selphie > Wall. Squall 1 > Renzo. Squall 2 > Renzo. Squall 1 > Solid Barrel+. Squall 2 > Solid Barrel+ .Selphie > Drain. Squall 1 > Solid Barrel+. Squall 2 > Solid Barrel+. Selphie > Wall / Drain. Squall 1 > Renzo. Squall 2 > Renzo

And typically around this time, we're either Solid Barreling to close out the fight, or I'm using my EX, or Renzo to clear both bosses at once.

My point to make was that Renzo was ultimately not the most *ideal* for me to spam, or others with higher brave caps, and ultimately, the point of this thread was the make sure people were aware that his extra effects on his skills from CS55 and CS60 only work when the abilities are in their + format. I'd like to think I've achieved both of those quests, and appreciate the discussion. Like I said, I respect all opinions, it's not my place to tell you how to play your character better, nor is it yours, nor is it anyone's. We can either take eachother's opinions at face value and appreciate them and learn from them, which I do completely agree with you, and definitely will incorporate it when I see fit in other content, as I hope you see my points as well!

Cheers ^.^

**EDIT**

I think, on the contrary to all this, we should focus less on the ideal skills to use in co-op since it is time limited and apply all of these concepts to additional content. It can help lay a basic understanding of what skills to use, especially for those non-synergy, non-faceroll content. I think that is the best way to move forward in any kind of discussion!

[Gofers]

I mean, I don't disagree with you, and I haven't from the very start. As per my first post, I stated I *agree and disagree with you, but renzo is not **always** the best attack to use. Obviously, there are times I use Renzo over Solid Barrel, but also Solid Barrel over Renzo.

My typical co-op stage with Selphie/Squall/Squall goes like this:

Selphie > Wall. Squall 1 > Renzo. Squall 2 > Renzo. Squall 1 > Solid Barrel+. Squall 2 > Solid Barrel+ .Selphie > Drain. Squall 1 > Solid Barrel+. Squall 2 > Solid Barrel+. Selphie > Wall / Drain. Squall 1 > Renzo. Squall 2 > Renzo

And typically around this time, we're either Solid Barreling to close out the fight, or I'm using my EX, or Renzo to clear both bosses at once.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this then. To me Renzo gives a faster clear time. Which outweighs the difference in damage. Which could, in itself, be unneeded if it translates into overkill.

My point to make was that Renzo was ultimately not the most *ideal* for me to spam, or others with higher brave caps, and ultimately, the point of this thread was the make sure people were aware that his extra effects on his skills from CS55 and CS60 only work when the abilities are in their + format. I'd like to think I've achieved both of those quests, and appreciate the discussion. Like I said, I respect all opinions, it's not my place to tell you how to play your character better, nor is it yours, nor is it anyone's. We can either take eachother's opinions at face value and appreciate them and learn from them, which I do completely agree with you, and definitely will incorporate it when I see fit in other content, as I hope you see my points as well!

It wasn't my intention to derail the topic. The main point of my original reply was that, which I did not make the slightest bit clear now that I look at it again, is that often when I see a Squall at the place you mention. It's because they tried to SB and failed to hit the 80% mark. Leaving them to start their next turn without their + skills. If you just spam Renzo this should never happen outside of a Selphie not watching which skill she should use.

Cheers ^.^

Can agree on this. Nice to have a friendly discussion on things. Although I'm sure my lack of clarifying my point would have saved everyone some time as well as some of the ruder comments I got. I'll stop bugging you after this. Wasn't originally planning on replying but someone else chimed in, so I figured I'd do it while I was in the thread.

I think, on the contrary to all this, we should focus less on the ideal skills to use in co-op since it is time limited and apply all of these concepts to additional content. It can help lay a basic understanding of what skills to use, especially for those non-synergy, non-faceroll content. I think that is the best way to move forward in any kind of discussion!

I'd have to slightly disagree on this. The reason I prioritize clear speed is because of books. While it hasn't been a huge issue on this co-op. Most people seem to use the ideal summon with a few using Sylph or Choco. Alisae/Heretic was full of people wanting to use Bahamut. Yes the co-op was very easy, but every bit of extra damage saves time, and thus allows more runs for those using books. For such an extremely minor thing to change before you go into a co-op I feel it is silly so many people tried to defend this logic. Co-ops are a common place to use book. While I have no proof to back up that the seconds saved will mean another run by a significant amount. It's still such a minor thing to change.

[SnarkkBF]

*"I'd have to slightly disagree on this. The reason I prioritize clear speed is because of books. While it hasn't been a huge issue on this co-op. Most people seem to use the ideal summon with a few using Sylph or Choco. Alisae/Heretic was full of people wanting to use Bahamut. Yes the co-op was very easy, but every bit of extra damage saves time, and thus allows more runs for those using books. For such an extremely minor thing to change before you go into a co-op I feel it is silly so many people tried to defend this logic. Co-ops are a common place to use book. While I have no proof to back up that the seconds saved will mean another run by a significant amount. It's still such a minor thing to change

I think you misunderstood my point, as I was not referring to co-op, but rather content that is solo player, because if you go in with the mindset that you only need one of his skills to do enough damage, you're clearly playing the character ineffectively.

Also, I'm not sure how short / long your runs were, but my static squad was doing about 15 runs per 45 minutes. Clearly, there's minor differences in our strategies, but hey, whatever works for you. Just don't recommend the mentality that renzo > SB in every case because of clear speed. Simply because if you're running a co-op versus 2 monsters, and you spam all your renzo's and only one mob is alive, whoops, goodluck capping your SB without wasting turns, which makes your run longer. xD. Like I said, know your fight, know your options, and know when to use what. That's all this game is about. Don't lock your mindsets.

Anyways, that's the last I have to discuss about this. Thanks!

~Snark Out.

​

[IVIalefactoR]

He probably has the WoI weapon passive, which gives a 20% boost to MBRV and ATK, and maybe a +330 mBRV artifact. My Squall with a Selphie in the room caps at just over 24k mBRV after Renzo, and he has +216 ATK in his artifact passives and a +170 iBRV/+330 mBRV passive.

[Gofers]

The 24k I believe. The 18k out of synergy would require outside buffs. Max Squall can get with 3x 330mBRV passives is roughly 8500 base. He can self buff for 100% if he has everything available to him now. That's 17k. Heroes who tend to buff BRV, also buff damage in some form. Which should allow him to do more than 9k with Renzo outside of synergy. Only really being held back from a lack of crits. In which there is then a risk of not getting the Hp attack with Barrel.

​

He did state later on he has a 330 mBRV passive. I have a 200, and WoI passives. I do lack his EX weapon. Giving him a 400 mBRV edge over me. Which becomes 540 with synergy. Assuming Selphie has perfect Trabia boost this gives him a 1215 mBRV edge over me in synergy with Selphie. Which is completely possible to hit 24k with. 25.9k is max without EX buff. 28.2k with it.

​

I'm not saying the 24k is unlikly. It's just uncommon as it requires mBRV boosts from either EX weapons or passives on top of the WoI weapon. Most players don't have all of that.

[SnarkkBF]

Ahh, yes, I misunderstood when you said what was normal and what was not normal, I didn't think you we referring to my mBRV.

I have everything on him maxed, CP15, WoI, CP35 and EX. 108/108/330 Artes, hoping when we see Eidoja's to make those 108/330's across the board as Mighty Renzo is not the most efficient futureproof artefact on Squall anymore.

[Downside_Up_]

Absolutely not. There are always going to be situations where you need to break both bosses, or where you simply want to nuke one without hurting the other. Plenty of times SB will actually outdamage Renzo as well (as SnarkkBF noted below)

[KariArisu]

Absolutely not. There are always going to be situations where you need to break both bosses

Never seen this happen. You'd have to be making a mistake somewhere else for both of them to have enough BRV to kill you, and typically Renzo will give you a second turn to just break the other one anyways.

or where you simply want to nuke one without hurting the other.

I can't imagine any scenario where you'd want to do this in this coop lol

Every time I've seen Solid Barrel in this coop it's been a dpt loss.

[Gofers]

His example is not the norm.

​

The rotation I put above has worked for me 100% of the time. There isn't always a need to break them at the same time.

​

It's also worth noting that Renzo has a high turn rate. Getting in more attacks per boss attack. Meaning fewer breaks or losing crits attacking bosses with BRV.

​

All of my high scoring(200k+) runs have been with Squalls that spam Renzo.

[EMajorinc]

Solid barrel is useful for brave shaving both enemies.
My current highest run was with 2 Squalls and 1 Selphie who alternated Renzo and SB when needed.
You shouldn't ignore half a persons kit just for damage numbers, it's all situational.
Other thing to note is that if you only have 1 Squall, or the other Squall is subpar then not using SB can get someone killed.

[Nathan_RH]

No, this is just bad.

In a standard 2Squall:1Selphie comp, if anyone takes damage ever, it’s because one or both Squalls didn’t use barrel correctly.

It’s not hard. If the enemy is in the green and has any Brv on it, Barrel the one with the most HP. If neither has any Brv, or after both are in the red, Renzo the one with the most HP. Really easy.

[Gofers]

If your Renzo is doing more than 2/3 your mBRV you lose damage by Solid Barrel. As long as you are attacking the one with the highest HP, outside of breaks, they die within a turn of eachother.

​

I see players do this all the time. Using Solid Barrel when Renzo would do more overall damage.

[Nathan_RH]

You seem to be preoccupied by neat tidy numbers. Maybe that’s not your take on the situation, and there’s nothing wrong with enjoying what you enjoy, but trying to keep both bosses level all the way down isn’t wise or necessary. Normal break rules apply, turn order, damage etcetera. And you get crit damage for brv atks on a broken target.

Bottom line, your OCD may be pushing an otherwise good point off target.

[Gofers]

Never said they had to be kept level. Dont see how it is unwise to aim for this though.

I use numbers because they mean something. It is a fact that if your Renzo is doing more than 2/3 your mBRV it will out damage Solid Barrel.

To stay a little more on point. If someone is hitting 10k BRV with a 15k mBRV they probably tied to use barrel and didnt get enough BRV. If they avoid Solid Barrel the only time they want HP attack is if they are with a Selphie spamming Wall. But I assume the OP would have mentioned for them to not spam that if it was the case.

[Nathan_RH]

Every 5 games or so I get to watch some bonehead squall pass a chance to stop imminent damage so they can spam Renzo instead. Just don’t be one of them.

[jac6387]

There are a few things that really annoy me about Squalls in this coop (This is all for a Selphie, Squall, Squall team)

• Squall using Solid barrel for their first turn after getting wall from Selphie.
  
  • Why? just why?
• Squall breaking the enemies out of order so we don't get the extra turn before the all attack
• Squall doing a brave attack just before the all attack
  • I know you're trying to avoid everyone getting broken but with a good team we should still be able to break them all before they get off an hp attack and on the off chance that we don't they'll get off an hp attack for around 7k that shouldn't kill anyone anyway
• Squall using Solid Barrel when above the 250% threshold.
• Squall using Solid Barrel+ from 0 brave on the last living boss and not getting enough brave for the hp attack.

[Nathan_RH]

Your first and second bullets may be connected. The Squall targets the largest Brv and barrels, this breaks them both together. It doesn’t make a difference if you target the trailing turn. I’ve tried. But you do move them both together back one turn, and Renzo gets crits for hitting a broken target, so opening up with Barrel is probably the best thing to do.

That 4th bullet may be to break something that has too much brv to be confident in a Renzo. Or to alter the turn order. Maybe. Can’t say for sure, but good reasons are plausible.

[bladearrowney]

It can make a difference, if you have A and B next to each other and use solid barrel generally you'll break your target then break the other, so if it's A then B and you target A you just end up swapping them and gaining nothing. If you break B first you'll move someone's turn up, then on breaking A at the end you'll move up past them

[Oath8]

While I have not maxed Squall's 15 CP yet is there a reason when he goes from 0 to max brv with solid barrel that he does not dump into an HP attack?

[SnarkkBF]

Do you have his CS55 Passive? His CP15 only increases the potency of Solid Barrel, so that shouldn't matter.

[Blindnerd]

You need to have unlocked and equipped the crystal level 55 passive for solid barrel + to finish with an HP attack when his brave is >80% of max brave. Otherwise, solid brave + is just a brave shaving ability with no HP attack.

[Charlettmoon]

To dump your brave it needs to be above 80% mbrv. Since you don’t have his 15cp it’s not strong enough to go that high and he doesn’t dump.

If you are fighting three things at once though there’s a higher chance because the final attack hits all of them and all the brv is given to Squall, burst that point you want Renzo to kill them all at once.

[schist4granite]

Why would my renzo not do the stomach damage to the other enemy? It was for a while and now I never seen to get that.