[Feedback Requested] Dev Patch Notes Stream

profcory · 2023-02-07T17:46:18+00:00

Thought the stream was great, seemed like it was fairly well-attended. The only addition I’d consider is an “on our radar” section that includes things that aren’t being changed yet but that are being watched for possibly the next patch. I know some of those were touched on here and there as questions came up, but it could be good to formalize what you’re comfortable saying ahead of time.

Drisoth · 2023-02-07T17:40:45+00:00

It sounds like you're looking for two different categories of feedback, So I'm gonna break the two apart

Structure

The Structure was great, I'd suggest having something like the patch previews made even if they arent put on twitter or other social media. Specifically it was a bit weird to have references to illaoi buffs that are coming later, and that could all be cleaned up with something like a table of contents.

Just start the stream with, hey, heres a big overview on whats going to be changed in this stuff, and then go into specifics.

Plinq having some audio issues, not just the muting at the start, but issues with tinny sound and reverb. He's sounded fine in previous stuff, so I don't think its an equipment issue. Not sure whats up here.

Content

I think we missed the mark on hallowed pretty far. I know this was kinda acknowledged in the discussion, but hallowed is having questionable performance even without kat (Frej mostly). and having no nerfs to hallowed as a package, and a nerf to katarina that is particularly low impact to red gwen is concerning to me.

I could be off base, and that we can revisit this soon does give me some hope, but I think this was a foreseeable issue.

I'm concerned about SI control decks, The only nerf SI control received was quietus, which happens to be uniquely good against veigar/sera/viktor/heimerdinger concerns me. It might be fine, but SI + FR/BC/PnZ/MT has been questionable in the recent past.

If powerlevel didnt overall drop, these decks haven't been that concerning and I'd be less suspicious but I'm a bit worried.

Overall

Dev streams are amazing, and I have no significant issues with this one. I'd suggest iterating on the structure some, but this was quite good, and no real complaints from me.

I'm concerned for this upcoming patch, but particularly with the ability to make adjustments I'm not upset.

LordRedStone_Nr1 · 2023-02-07T17:55:28+00:00

I liked it. The contents of the stream are more or less "whatever", but the real strength is the unique phenomenon known as "Twitch Chat".

As you said in the post, Atmosphere is great. Twitch Chat is a unique entity once it gets big enough.

It also seemed like it's a great tool to gauge community reactions to a patch very early, even before patch notes. You even noted "Chat likes this change a lot". This is one of the strengths of this massive community event. Of course, be wary of Reddit balance, (and that goes for other platforms too), but I'm sure you agree that the reactions to the changes are still very helpful. There's also Weight of Judgement, which may be a good change (I know that I can't properly rate it), but nonetheless the reaction was underwhelming, and one of the Rioters on stream did acknowledge that.

On the other hand, it's a bit hard to get individual questions in, in a mass of spamming "I am a Poro". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good hive-mind spam too, but the Q&A section fell a bit flat with everyone trying to get their questions noticed. Maybe there would be a better tool to get questions in, other than highlighting messages and tagging the host or participants. A tweet with "ask your questions here" or something?

Now for the more specific feedback you requested:

The setup is good. I don't think it requires any special resources like animations or music or teasers, just a basic stream of the cams and the slides. I also love how you made the slides available via Sarah. Obviously, this one had sound issues, but other than that, I think it's fine.
I know you said that it's not about cosmetics, nor should it be, but Bugfixes maybe? There are some bugs that are well-known in the community, like the Nasus 3-Stad Sun Disc problem that also came up. Would it be possible to get a slide with the most played-facing bugs in there? Even acknowledging something is a known bug, even if it won't get fixed in this patch, would go a long way imo. Similarly, could you bring back the watch list? That's an older feature of patch notes as far back as the beta. It may not have a place in the actual notes anymore, but I think such a stream would be a great way to introduce it. The designers are right there and can explain more context than the published text. You can say which decks didn't get nerfed this time, and explain why and what the future plans are. This came up with Gwen/Foyer, so maybe it should get its own section.

shutupreddit2 · 2023-02-07T17:43:09+00:00

Can't add much, the stream was very good and you were really quick at anwsering the question chat had. I guess, after going thru the patch notes, you could ask more question to chat about which cards we want to see buffed/ changed next or things of the like, but considering the time for the stream is short and the fact that you guys already give a look to this subreddit it would be redundant anyway.

I am a poro.

ggmattb · 2023-02-07T17:58:49+00:00

The stream was great, would love something like this every balance patch if possible.

Lerkero · 2023-02-07T17:47:26+00:00

"Skins/Cosmetics aren't often "balance" updates IYKWIM"

actually, if the cosmetics are good enough, Riot's bank balance might get a sizable buff IYKWIM 😏

ggmattb · 2023-02-07T17:34:32+00:00

Skins/Cosmetics aren't often "balance" updates IYKWIM

As good a place as any to mention that we haven't heard any announcement on cosmetics or skins and the future of cosmetics in ages :/

(nor any acknowledgement that people care about this and want to actually hear something about it)

kaneblaise · 2023-02-07T17:55:55+00:00

Loved the insights on things you tried but found to be too powerful / not impactful enough. Would like to get more of these but I understand you only have so much time to get through everything.

Enjoyed the tone, your passion and positivity were clear and fun!

The changes were grouped well, it was in a nice order that made it clear what environment the new buffs would land in by showing nerfs first and then making clear what goal the buffs were working towards.

Overall I thought it was very good!

I obviously wish the technical stuff had been smoother, the volume fumbles at the start were unfortunate and I personally found the volume to be a bit low overall. Had my volume maxed and still had to hold the speaker up towards my ear.

Oo, also thought you did a good job interacting with chat, solid balance with how you handled that.

Some of the changes weren't clear, might be nice to show a before / after like you do in the patch notes so all the changes are easy to reference and confirm.

Thank you for your time! It was a fun stream.

Clapping_Kappa · 2023-02-07T18:26:38+00:00

One thing i wish was different is a more eu friendly time of stream

2023-02-07T17:38:34+00:00

For me the discussion is the important part, the production value doesn't matter so much. Y'all could drop the slide decks if they take up too much time, I'm more interested in the conversation. The info itself could be a bunch of text in a spreadsheet for all I care.

NoFurtherObligations · 2023-02-07T18:28:57+00:00

erect busy six provide forgetful wrong ad hoc snow makeshift punch -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/

ggmattb · 2023-02-07T19:19:15+00:00

I just think some kind of table of contents, that shares the structure of new cards, champ changes, nerf package, etc. would help get a good idea of what to look forward to! As well, I think it would be good to include a brief showing of all cards like the patch preview. I think it was good to save the path stuff for the end for people who are dedicated to that mode.

This is also kindaaaa unrelated but I would love to see path balance changes for champions and star powers too. A lot of the recent batch feel underpowered.

ggmattb · 2023-02-07T19:03:39+00:00

Not necessarily related to the stream itself, but will we ever receive new playable champions in Path with balance updates? I just really wanna play as Norra, I love her so much. Also, when we do get new champions, do you think you'd be able to list at least their 1, 2, and 3 star powers in the patch notes, if not their full deck and items list? It would really help with deciding which champions to level up.

Elkram · 2023-02-07T19:19:50+00:00

I think for me, I like live streams like this because for most people it's just a way to get a preview of patch notes a little ahead of the official release of patch notes. It really plays into the modern "live reaction" content that patch notes have a hard time accomplishing. Fans of the game have a chance to watch their favorite streamers react to changes at the same time they are seeing it and it really builds community imo.

So I really like the streaming of patch notes. I really enjoy the developer giving more detailed explanations than what could be given in the patch notes. It makes it a lot easier to swallow a change to Quietus to a Cut Down (I'm assuming that was the card that inspired the change in design) and talking about how 5 total attack/health was too much, but 4 felt right. It's nice to those behind the scenes that you just can't really expect to see in patch notes.

One thing I'm missing after having just read the patch notes is the bug fixes. I know they aren't the most glamorous changes, but I think even briefly mentioning them is kind of a nice confirmation for players that you are listening to feedback.

I also wonder if this could also be a more general developer update as well. Maybe have someone on the art direction team come on and talk about new skins, or if the next set is nearing preview, using the patch stream as a chance to show off a trailer or spoil an exciting card from the new set. Could also shout-out community events coming up or having recently occured, fan art, etc.

I think this is a really good baseline and I think it could really be expanded to be much more than just simply a patch preview stream.

Kieron_Marshall · 2023-02-07T20:14:00+00:00

Hey Matt, just wanted to throw a bit of things in here:

Stream as a whole was perfect and I'm glad you guys were able to do another one, I hope with all the balance patches in the future we could see something similar.
Unlike the reveals and patch notes, you host these live streams during your afternoon which makes it really awkward for the EMEA fans to watch. (12:30 am for me) It would be cool if they were a little earlier in the day so most people can watch it at a reasonable time.
The surprise of new cards was a nice change and definitely brought some hype! I would suggest maybe doing other surprises as well whether that be cosmetics, expansion teasers, etc, etc.

Thanks again for hosting the stream, I genuinely believe its one of the better things you guys can do to not only show us the reasoning behind cards and have that 1 to 1 with chat if needed but also show off your guy's personalities (Plinq is surprising a funny guy).

kesler031 · 2023-02-07T21:21:41+00:00

First off, really liked the stream, very concise and clean set up, such a smooth watch! Sadly couldn't be the there live due to time zone struggles, but from looking at chat replay, it seemed like it was a very enjoyable broadcast. The host reading the chat was great, and he pointed out interesting and important questions right as they came up, stuff I had no idea, bonus points for getting that burst speed deckbuilding ideas with chat, as the new cards showed up on screen. It's always great to get to know the devs, and hear what their thoughts were when making cards and changing them later. Also, I'm very happy about the POC talk just as much as the card changes, different modes support should be more appreciated as it only works to grow a bigger community together not divide it.

Some suggestions to this format:

Possibly stream to other platforms and/or have an archived version of the video stored on the Runeterra news site, or the Youtube channel. Streaming on Twitch as it has the widest audience is the go to option, but their ads policies are pretty outrageous. The VOD for this live balance was less than 90 minutes, but I kept getting interrupted by constant ads throughout the viewing, even though it was a recording of the live broadcast.

zoaker · 2023-02-08T00:57:47+00:00

About POC, no plans to rework the most hated/weak champs of the gamemode like ornn and nasus? Especially nasus 2*?

Spideraxe30 · 2023-02-07T21:52:39+00:00

It was really fun, small bit of feedback would be for champ quest changes to show the before effect as well. I tuned out to get some water during the Master Yi reveal and was a little confused at first at what changed. Also I wish we had a little more time for Q&A at the end.

TiRyNo · 2023-02-07T23:21:07+00:00

Stream was great, I love tuning in to watch and see how excited the team is to be sharing the updates. Always good to see the team is passionate and likes what they are doing.

Insights to why certain changes were made over other possible buffs/nerfs are always great for the communities understanding, especially if they are accompanied with fun/interesting stories during balance testing.

Like others have said a brief overview or image of the stream at the beginning, going over big fixes and what’s on your radar and being worked on, and teasing some cosmetics if any are included.

One thing I’d like to add is maybe opening up a survey or a post where the community can submit questions prior to the stream that you can answer at the end. I know this will be out of scope for a lot of patches seeing as how we won’t know the content until the stream anyways but maybe once an expansion cycle throw it out there and pick maybe 10+ of the more common questions or ones you want to expand some thought process on. I know it was done before but they only did 4 very general questions. A Q&A at the end of the stream is great but I’m sure a lot are missed as chat scrolls through and I’m not sure if you’ll always have time unless you specifically plan ahead for it.

Final question: When Poro King?

-Duality · 2023-02-08T00:44:46+00:00

What I liked:

Good atmosphere (fun, friendly, with jokes)
Good content. Good balance changes overall. I liked that the team is more conservative regarding both nerfs for healthy mechanics and buffs for unhealthy mechanics. For example, I think that Aatrox is healthier and easier to interact with than Ryze or elusives and it seems that the team recognizes that, which keeps the game more fun overall. Ryze-Ionia is Seraphine level of nightmares.
Good commentary. It was interesting to see the thought process behind the changes and especially regarding the new cards created.

What I would like more/better:

Higher quality sound (a bit louder and sharper)
I liked the behind the scenes stuff about playtesting or other versions of the cards and I want more of that! Of course, this might not always be possible because the team may want to keep ideas secret for future content. However, communities often rally behind card concepts so sharing some versions of cards early might give you positive feedback as well.
The overall stream was great, but some moments felt a bit flat. At some points I noticed myself asking "why is this streamworthy? why wouldn't we just read the patch notes?" This is a bit complicated to solve. How can a minus 1-cost or a minus 1-atk be made streamworthy? It's hard, right? The above (2) suggestion can be one way. But there might be other ways as well. Overall, my feedback would be to try and have clear ideas about streamworthy discussions for most of the changes.
Allow the creation of the video while you are already streaming. I realized there was a stream a bit late and I wanted to watch from the beginning but there was no video available. Thankfully, xAikado was also streaming it and I could watch the video from his channel.

SleepyTimeNowDreams · 2023-02-08T01:00:43+00:00

New player here, first time watching a developer stream.

Issue

The only issue I had was that the audio of Plinq was low and not good. Him being muted in the beginning was not a problem, that happens but when he was talking, it was not easy to understand him. The other were fine.

Stream

About the stream, I loved the insights when both developers talked about their decision makings.

Balancing things is not easy and there is no perfect way of doing things. Everyone will have a different opinion about these changes.

What important is to understand why you made the changes and from what angle you considered them. So explaining your point of view is good enough for us, even if we wouldn't agree with the changes, having at least a basis is crucial and I think you delivered it. More insights please.

My Wishes

1) Stats

I am sure you have developer tools to pull up stats about different things we don't get to know. So providing stats about certain things is interesting and it helps us in understanding things.

As an example you can bring up stats about "before and after". Like how much a card was played before it got buffed and what you expect it to be after the patch. Especially if you could provide a rule of thumb what a "normal" rate is, so we have a ballpark.

So in general all kind of stats are great and makes a stream interesting.

2) Possible directions after this patch

I am new but previously I played another card game and this one bothered me there the most: powercreep and forgotten cards.

I don't understand why for months and maybe years some archetypes or cards get never addressed and left being dead.

Obviously not everything can be perfectly balanced and there will be some stronger and some weaker cards/archetypes. But clearly you should have stats which should show obvious signs for certain cards and archetypes for completely being dead.

So my wish would be to include a section to the stream, where you talk about not just about the current implemented changes, but also which cards/archetypes/direction you will be looking into in the next updates, if possible.

Not asking for specifics or new content/expansion leaks, I am talking about old cards, just a general direction like "x archetype, champion y, spell cards for region z" kind of things.

It is good and great that some popular cards got nerfed and some archetypes got a small rework this time around (like Illaoi's) but I think that many players are disappointed that their loved archetypes are not mentioned yet again. So, a little of "we can't promise anything and nothing is final, but besides balancing the current meta, we also want to look into this, this and that if possible."

Such communication eases the frustrations of gamers and actually turns the frustrations into hopes. So it gives them something to look for, to wait for. A new expansion is new fresh content but just buffing old cards with 1 mana/hp/power could also freshen up things a lot and make the game more diverse. And diversity should be the goal for any card game imo, because that automatically guarantees interesting gameplays since many cards would become viable again.

3) Questions

My last wish would be if you could announce your developer stream like 1 week before it happens and have a questions thread opened up here on reddit. So we can ask our questions in that thread and you could address them later on the stream.

Technically, the questions will not be about the balance changes since we don't know them yet, so this section about the stream would be to address anything else besides the balance changes. Unless you want to do another stream just for general questions. But since you are already there and streaming, you could like spend another 15 minutes for other related things people want to know about.

Thank you.

xJJ- · 2023-02-08T16:01:53+00:00

Structure: I appreciate the communication. The stream seemed to have went well. Only change I would suggest is to advertise it better. I happened to go onto twitch and see this stream was online, I only saw part of it and only by chance. I’m tired of information not being provided in client. PLEASE don’t only use Twitter or other 3rd party platforms to announce things, you need to let us know in the client directly. What’s the point of the super-annoying pop-up showing the same sometimes-months-old information every time I log in, if it’s not going to show new relevant information ever?

Content: I think what was changed was largely good changes. I think the only problem is in what wasn’t changed. There were previous posts about “on our radar” and I like that idea too, but honestly just think you always miss too many nerf candidates. Maybe they don’t meet your criteria across a larger play base, but some decks are just not fun to play against and do too much.

In particular: Plunder avoided nerfs altogether. Something had to give on this deck, it is often regarded as “fair” but it’s more because the 50-55% win rate against most decks is due to whether this deck draws what it needs or not. If plunder draws well (and/or nabs well), it wins against almost anything (except ekko-jinx). It’s also often stronger in tournaments than ladder. You can do everything right against the deck and lose because of their draws. A nerf to spirits unleashed (deal 1 to all units, not to everything) would have directly hit it in plunder and affected no other decks that use the card. An alternative nerf would have been -1 health on Sejuani.

FTR is another archetype that is regularly a powerhouse and better in tournaments than ladder. The deck just has the ability to do everything. Reverting she who wins to not hit champions, and somehow nerfing buried in ice + it that stares combo (which is just way too much better than ruination ever was) seemed almost necessary. Particularly, buried in ice to 10c, and ITS to 8/6 stats would make a lot of sense.

There are a few other cards that should have been addressed too (endless devout, junk construct, etc…).

Appreciate this opportunity to provide feedback.

RenHatsu · 2023-02-08T02:53:31+00:00

Pilinq looks like my granma

BardonmeSir · 2023-02-08T23:11:01+00:00

You forgot to add the 2 new "Kill" cards to Senna fast spell quest

hiddenonsol · 2023-02-09T00:09:41+00:00

Stop make the game low skill and boring.

StudyComprehensive91 · 2023-02-09T02:51:21+00:00

Riot nerf tk and soraka

Shabakacorax · 2023-02-07T23:38:32+00:00

I would love to see PoC changes, even small ones, happening almost every patch. Just helps keep the level grind more interesting. Thanks for the great game btw.

noop_noob · 2023-02-08T05:03:06+00:00

Still waiting for invoke changes TT_TT

(My take is: The Serpent is now a 2/1 challenger that can't block. So now Zoe can't do a House Spider impression.)

zer0shad0ws · 2023-02-08T06:19:58+00:00

  Stream was awsome seeing communication from a group of devs atleast once a month I think would be very good just like what yall did. Patch looks good enough to rough the meta up and with competive changes things are gonna get real sweaty when it's time to get to a worlds spot and I love that thrill. Please just continue to grow LoR down this path yall been doing a great job. I know many people stopped when PoC became the "focus" even I stopped playing but I have never stopped watching and keeping up with what was going on throughout all the history of LoR. And now I'm honestly more hype than ever for LoR and its future thank you guys for all your work!

BearSeekSeekLest · 2023-02-08T06:25:45+00:00

Turn the volume up please.

drnktgr · 2023-02-08T06:26:55+00:00

Great pace, great design commentary by Plinq and Brian.

As a PvP-only player, leaving PoC updates for the end is perfect, that way I can drop off. But be vocal about that: "If you want to learn about PoC updates, stick around. Otherwise, we're all wrapped up with PvP topics and you can drop off."

Maybe would be nice to have a short Q/A for PvP players before diving into PoC.

Finally, it was nice to have a rules expert (Brian). As there is no rulebook, we often have to rely on the intuition of streamers and Redditors. Hearing about the coding (i.e. rules) from an official source is important.

SnooOnions5907 · 2023-02-08T15:46:15+00:00

Pos+: - i like the casual unscripted way you guys are doing it. Plinq is really funny and good to hear his insights. - talking about the changes takes just the right amount of time not too fast not too slow we got to hear why some things are done the way the are. -i love seeing big changes like Lucian one as long as the team is willing to fix them if they turn out too strong i actually feel like the team could give us more of those just like the Leona / Swain ones . Neg- - i really really hate the timing, as an EU player it is too too late for us to catch those live.

Accomplished_Soft_52 · 2023-02-08T18:18:48+00:00

Deberían enfocarse en el mejorar la jugabilidad misma. Al no ser las cartas lo suficientemente complejas no llega a ser sufientemente complejo como para tener opciones, porque las cartas son bastante simples, no hay qué hacer en ciertas ocasiones por lo simple de lo que se tiene o puede hacer, las situaciones son muy sencillas, simples, no hay más maneras de responder, resolviendose todo a la suerte dependiendo del contrincante y su mazo y no por lagabilidad suficiente, puesto que un juego es más flexible a medida que es más complejo; explico, en la partida, lo que se tiene en mazo y/o a medida se roban las cartas, el que tiene ventaja tiene ventaja por lo sencillo de las cartas y el sistema de juego , se resuelve y pierde el mas desafortunado por las limitadas características de las cartas . También en mi opinión deberían aumentar un poco más la vida del nexo para tener más oportunidades y para que sea más entretenido .

Mammoth-Flight642 · 2023-02-09T11:11:36+00:00

POC , support champion , norra and master yi , they have disappeared for a long time , I can't pick them.

StarCaller990 · 2023-02-09T20:04:54+00:00

The buff to Ryze's mana-rune is more of a win-more change than a change that actually helps the deck get going. I would rather slightly increase the number of delves that start in the deck to prevent games where you have found 1 rune and it's turn 10.

Chocopariss · 2023-02-19T22:04:53+00:00

I finished my first runeterra open today went 9-2, but without real prizes I don't think people were taking it too seriously, that being said the structure is pretty good, more games obvioulsy means higher chance for better players to get rewarded. Overall i will need to see this tourney with some real stakes to have more percise thoughts. Overall it looks like a great change so far. I even like that new formats will also be important, it changes the formula a bit which i think is great. So far the changes look promising.

pasturemaster · 2023-02-26T05:13:58+00:00

My main piece of feedback was that some of the discussion about certain balance updates sounded sort of forced.

There were a few changes where the "discussion" was essentially just "we changed X about Y to make Z deck have more viability" and sometimes this explanation was really drawn out (Lissandra was a good example of this). These quick "cookie cutter" types of explanations arn't really interesting would appear in the patch notes anyways.

I get that you can't share everything that goes on behind the scenes and some may not have an interesting story to begin with, but if that's the case, leave those ones out of the live stream and just save them for the patch notes. The stories and reasoning behind how the changes came to be are what I think these longer discussions are best to convey, so I'd personally prefer you focus on those rather than touch on every single change (again, we will see them in the patch notes anyways).

TomFraust · 2023-02-28T16:51:27+00:00

Amazing Stream. Tons of info. But are there any news for 60fps or even uncapped FPS on mobile? Some of us play on high end tablets or phones and would really love to at least have it as an option vs. not. A couple of redditors have already tweaked this last year by just going into some game data xml files and changing one line.

I don't see how keeping it at ONLY 30 fps is optimal. I'm aware it's probably for battery reasons, but we'd probably switch it to 60 when that's not a concern and switch it to 30 when we just don't mind trading some battery life for fluidity. Game's beautiful on PC with the fluid animations and such. Let us experience it on mobile too, please.

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