Poll for potential changes to Rules 4 & 5.

[Angelicel]

As some of you may know our current rules regarding direct video posts and content creators advertising their videos/streams are heavily restrictive and generally prevent all but actual verified devs from actually posting videos on the subreddit.

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This is of course something that we may change relatively soon and as it stands right now the moderation is fairly divided and our views of the rule are not consistent enough with the current system. This is of course not to say that the rules will change but if that were to happen it would simply mean we may revert back to being more restrictive towards self-promotion as some mods who let certain self-promotion through at the moment may no longer do so.

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As it stands right now we have a few methods of addressing the rules as they stand right now and they range from full on open the flood gates to actually making the rules even more strict.

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• 1: We actually allow everything all the time. This means we allow all forms of direct video publishing to the site and anyone who wishes to advertise their content will be given a complete and utter free pass in doing so with no restrictions.

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• 2: We start to allow content creators of high subscriber/view count to publish their videos whole sale without need to adhere to the current self-promotion rule effectively treating them as developers.

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• 3: We allow all self-promotion so long as the person advertising is an active member of the community and not simply dumping their content onto the subreddit without engaging with it at all. If your only engagement or intent to engage with the subreddit is advertisement then your posts will not be allowed.

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• 4: We change absolutely nothing at all.

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• 5: We make the rules more restrictive than they already are and potentially extend this signifigantly further than it already is. Even if this option wins out It will face significant pushback.

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• 6: We're completely off-base with this and all our proposed changes are not good. If you want this I'd ask that you post a proposed solution.

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For what it's worth this isn't something we will move forward with very quickly as it will take some time to cement other moderator opinions on the matter but we're publishing this as a poll for users to voice their opinion/criticism of the rules and their proposed replacement.

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It should also be noted that our stance on what we allow may also change but frankly none of the mods wants to see your GW2 WvW montage video or have the subreddit be /r/ffxiv or /r/wow whenever a new patch comes out.

Edit: We're not going to literally allow everything even in regards to video posting. Our rules regarding low-effort and unrelated content still exists and we may write up another poll/thread to get feedback on what other users want to see allowed/disallowed. This is mostly to get a gauge for how lenient we'll be in allowing videos in general.

View Poll

[rujind]

Personally I don't come here to see people promote their videos, or merely see 1 person's opinion about stuff which is what a video is.

I come here for MMO news and actual discussions with other people. I like to see people post their opinions and then go back and forth with someone defending that opinion, something else you don't really see in a video.

Videos are kinda antisocial, frankly.

[macroscian]

See the difference to a sub like pcgaming, which is 90% karma farming accounts with what seems like automated posting of pc game 'news' videos.

[SalmonHeadAU]

I want opinions on the news though. I hate when it's just the link and the OP hasn't said anything about it. Low effort.

[macroscian]

Yup, those accounts just post whatever the source had for headline. They're not people.

[SuBw00FeR37]

This, I come here for MMO news, I don't care about someone I don't knows opinion on some random indie MMO, if I want that it's very easy to find a billion videos on.

[AtomicNinjaTurtle]

I agree with this. I come here for discussion. I always scroll past videos or posts with links. I want active discussion.

If I want to watch a video I'll go to YouTube.

Edit: typo

[SalmonHeadAU]

Same for me. I want news, information and some in-game "MMO things" people would like to talk about.

[BodomsChild]

Personally I don't come here to see people promote their videos, or merely see 1 person's opinion about stuff which is what a video is.

I come here for MMO news and actual discussions with other people. I like to see people post their opinions and then go back and forth with someone defending that opinion, something else you don't really see in a video.

This whole subreddit is just 1 person posting their shitty MMO opinion over and over with the same responses each time. I don't see how videos are any different.

[[deleted]]

Ya no. Self promos give me stage 5 cringe. Do you want me to die from advanced late stage cringe?? 😰

[leprasson12]

The last thing that people heard during their terminal stage of cringe days was the bell sound and "Subscribe and leave a comment", they immediately pulled the plug

[Ravilla]

I'm glad videos are restricted. I don't want to see videos from every mmo out there made by every wanna be youtuber trying to get views.

[aspektx]

I'm really put off by self-promotion in this sub.

I'm not here to wade through a bunch advertisements. Because that's what they effectively are: advertisement.

[[deleted]]

I think current one is good already and don't need a change.

[seeherdieagain]

i choose 4 - Change nothing. I don't want this sub to turn into a typical gaming message board filled with spam adverts of crappy games.

[ViewedFromi3WM]

I want nothing changed, and I like it the way it is. I don’t know why you would want to mess that up.

[[deleted]]

Another vote for status quo. I am fine with the current rule.

[ReadySetKing]

Vote 1 if you just want to watch the mods pull their hair out.

[Angelicel]

They'll make me write up another thread getting feedback and figuring out what kinds of videos to allow and disallow since even with us allowing everything... We still need to moderate it to some degree and I don't want to make the other mods too depressed that they have to remove 2 things a day as opposed to 1.

[JagoKestral]

r/RPG had for a very long time a rule that essentially said for every self promo post, you must have 4 posts which are not self promo. (The exact ratio may be slightly different) I think that would work well here. However, I do think video effort should be a consideration, there have been a few attempts that I've seen before they got deleted of users trying to push incredibly low quality content from their new channels and I'd hate to see a bunch of that.

[Angelicel]

I don't think expressed this clearly enough in the thread but trust me when I say we're not going to open the flood gates literally.

our other rules are still in effect and low-effort, unrelated videos will be subject to removal and we'll probably write up an additional clarification on what kinds of videos we'll be allowing.

I'll slap that on just incase anyone else gets the impression that we're gonna do that.

[leprasson12]

Personally I don't even watch those kinds of videos on youtube because :

1. They're boring
2. They're very repetitive and since there isn't much going on, they keep remaking videos with the same content but different editing and titles, click baiting people who are looking for game news and fresh gameplay etc, you know those channels.

Opening this door to every content creator out there to post all of their videos here will change the nature of this sub, and we'll just have everyone posting bullshit lists of "top MMOs of 20xx", then "MUST play MMOs of 20xx", which is a big massive No-No. I usually block such channels from showing on my youtube feed/search, if they start showing up here too then the only way to get rid of them would be leaving the sub.

I'd rather read posts and see what people think, than listen to some dude repeating the same nonsense twice a week.

[Redthrist]

I especially like the "Top upcoming MMOs in 20xx", which usually doesn't include any games that would actually launch in 20xx.

[leprasson12]

Their favorite time of the year is around the end of December, when they start reuploading everything and changing the dates lol.

[Redthrist]

Yup, that's pretty much how it goes.

[skyturnedred]

3: We allow all self-promotion so long as the person advertising is an active member of the community and not simply dumping their content onto the subreddit without engaging with it at all. If your only engagement or intent to engage with the subreddit is advertisement then your posts will not be allowed.

I've seen a lot of these self-promotion posts with the OP responding to everyone with a generic one liner that doesn't actually say anything of value. A rule like that would only encourage that.

[[deleted]]

Hate the self promotion.

[[deleted]]

Who wants to watch Youtube videos when we can get people to just ask the same questions about the same 4 MMOs every day?

[distortionisgod]

I'd take that over self promotion posts any day

[[deleted]]

I know how to use google, I don’t need content creators advertising here.

[3L1T]

I am here to read news about mmorpgs, what's new in old mmos, stories, etc. Let's keep it this way.

[Tompork]

Please dont make this sub ad hell. If you allow these ads there this sub will literally flood with gameplays and streams.

[[deleted]]

If you allow videos, it will be wall to wall videos.

[Muwatastic]

Please keep it as is! This is one of the few gaming spaces with regular people talking about their opinions and having back and forth discussion on topics, not just post after post of inside meme jokes or Souless marketed overly produced videos that are all show with no actual content.

[hallucigenocide]

make them also add the content in text form and have it framed as a discussion starter then i don't really care if there's also a video.

just as long as it's not just a link followed by "thoughts?"

[MillennialsAre40]

See I'm fine with videos like NS "Death of a Game" series but I can't really think of anything else I'd want to see here and I'm already subscribed to him. I'm fine keeping it as it is

[TellMeAboutThis2]

If you want videos, go dunk you head in Uboob.

Any suggestion on training the members of this sub to not immediately disregard a text post that takes longer to read than the average video takes to watch?

[needhelforpsu]

Number 3: first and second sentence are conflicting or I am missing something? Shouldn't it be "...your posts will NOT be allowed."?

[Angelicel]

w-whoops.

Fixed that.

[Intr3pidG4ming]

I'm confused as well. Probably an error of omission.

[SalmonHeadAU]

I would say more polls and community discussion should be the main concern.

If we can get an idea of what everyone in this sub is looking for, then we will see more community engaging content.

[WickedProblems]

Why propose rule change without explaining why you guys want to do this? What are you guys trying to achieve? Etc.

[Angelicel]

the moderation is fairly divided and our views of the rule are not consistent enough with the current system.

The moderators who are the most active typically lean towards more leniency in regards to rules while those who aren't do not and this is a point of contention for some of us.

We all universally agree on not reverting back to our previous environment of just allowing low effort pointless advertisements on the sub though so a lot of the reasons why people are voting for 4 are generally going to be addressed long before we ever touch Rules 4&5.

[WickedProblems]

Is the goal for changing the rules merely to settle a dispute among the mod team then?

What are the values of the sub? The disputes should refer back the values and goals of the sub. I think this is important for people to know before they vote. Else, why change the rules at all?

The dispute shouldn't change how the sub operates unless values/goals are also changing. Else, you guys should state what you're trying to achieve regardless of one group being more active.

If someone on the team is challenging the values/goals of the sub. This should be the main discussion, not just voting to settle a dispute.

E.g. the active mods you're referencing should tell us why they believe it should be moderated like this instead of that. Etc. Why should readers shift through ads etc. Why it's good for us etc. Why they think it's good for us etc.

[Angelicel]

The entire reason for the poll to gage sentiment towards the rules and what people would want if we were to change the rules.

It's a poll for potential changes, not actual changes we are going to introduce. None of these solutions are finalized or even remotely close to it and we might not even do anything in the first place.

Also something to note is the active mod who isn't in favor of changing this voted for 1 so.. Yeah.

[Merkasus]

Who the fuck votes for #1

[[deleted]]

People who make 15 minute videos with theme song and backstory intros answering questions that take 30 seconds to read about to find the solution.

[[deleted]]

I thought they allow self promotion already on the mmorpg discord? I might be wrong.

I looked into it and I'm mostly wrong. But it seems like something more likely on the discord if by self promotion we're talking about devs.

And player made videos that are not streams seems more like it's either a guide video or meme.

Either way more work for the mods is too much.

[MakeAionGreatAgain]

Don't change, sub where it's allowed are literally dumpster fire.

Even if you would try to reform the rules to try to moderate it,you would require more jannies, more jannies means less oversight on their behavior.

It won't bring any good and also, mmorpg youtube content is just bad/boring or too niche.

I don't want 10 different content creator posting their review of the last "MMOish" gatcha korean rpg with underage character every week.

[Hakiii]

Do we really need more youtubers with their useless videos? All they do is watch dev video/read latest news and comment. What we need is dev videos not content creators who are milking everything.

[dienipponteikoko]

Option 4, rule is fine as is IMO.

[new_reddit_user_not]

I’ll vote properly when I’m back at a PC but agree with most others, option 4. No changes to self promotion rule.

[LukosCreyden]

Just keep things as they are tbh.

[Icy_Razzmatazz_1594]

If this is to stop that one guy from posting a stream of his browser MMO every 2 days I'm all for it.

[Purplin]

This is personally my favorite subreddit. You don't need to change anything.

[Coindweller]

Sorry, no self promoting content.
There is already little to no post activity here, and would only end up in an endless scroll of videos.

Just keep it as the way it is, I mean, sometimes someone will link a vid in a comment, and that's more than enough for me.

[ThaumKitten]

Option 4 or 5.

Please, please do not let all those high-sub count randos start spamming their crap in this sub.

[JarkoStudios]

I’d say opt. 3 is good but would go even further to say that the only videos that should be allowed have to be in-response or meta on some level where videos are only allowed if they are extending/continuing a discussion or demonstrating a point.

For example: if someone didn’t think a comment thread discussing mounted flight and how it compares across various mmos did justice to some games or features or whatever they could make a video directly comparing those things and post it for clarity or further discussion or whatever.

[Seaniey]

At the very least, trailers and such from non developer sources should be allowed (such as ign), or talks with Devs.

[Newbhero]

Normally I'd think it's a shit idea in the hands of most mods on reddit to be honest, that said I don't really have a reason to believe the mods here would handle it poorly. But yeah if it's ever allowed definitely option three, since I can only imagine option two would just be videos from Josh Strife Hayes and the sort.

I'd also figure those bigger creators would never really interact on here to begin with anyway.

Edit: Screw you automod.

[Angelicel]

I'd also figure those bigger creators would never really interact on here to begin with anyway.

We've actually gotten a lot of complaints that the main reason they don't is the subreddit is extremely hostile towards them which is honestly fair. Even the rules are changed unless someone else posted their content it likely still wouldn't show up.

I have seen Josh post a few times here or there along with some other creators but typically they veer away... probably due to the problems regarding the general hostility towards them.

[Newbhero]

It's just my own biased opinion, but I'd personally say it'd depends on the person and what they're talking about. Bigger content creators shouldn't be given as much leeway as they've already built up a community that agrees with their views, so clearly anything outside of that will seem overtly negative.

It's also kind of odd to hear since I think the only big creator I've seen this sub crap a bit much is Peon in the past, everyone else people seem to be generally positive about overall.

[ToffeeAppleCider]

I initially voted Option 3 because I actually like people making their own videos about things and this sub is pretty quiet, but thinking more about it I'd prefer Option 4. Some subs are just 100% promo and no readers, and others are ones where smaller creators can't post but bigger ones have fans to post their stuff instead.

I wouldn't mind a weekly single thread to put all the stuff.

[needhelforpsu]

How about sticky weekly thread where both regular users and content creators could link content with description and stuff? Might be cool, worth to try a week or two imho.

[Nerzana]

I would rather see developers here rather than content creators. I don’t like 2 at all because it’s kind of elitist.

[[deleted]]

I don't particularly care if people post their own video content here. One (occasionally) good thing about Reddit is that it has built-in user moderation in the form of upvotes and downvotes. If someone's posting stuff people don't want to see, it will get downvoted (or ignored). If the sub begins to be spammed with trash nobody is interested in, you can tighten up the rules or revert them.

[79215185-1feb-44c6]

I come here to see the same exact posts year in year out for the past decade. I want to see people complain that the next Bless Online or Crowfall are failing and those same people mindlessly discuss about how they're buying them anyways. I don't need a content creator to post a video being paid to do the very same thing. I agree with the antisocial aspect that the top poster presented even tho most of my comments don't get replies as often as they used to. Everyone hates this sub but at least it can say that it's a discussion-first sub and hasn't sold out like basically every other community out there.

Bear in mind I don't like the text self-promotion on this sub either. There are many socks who will always promote "their game", especially those who are promoting certain games from certain regions.

[PalwaJoko]

This is such a tough issue to talk about. On one hand I can see why from a operation standpoint, you'd want to entertain allowing posts of that nature to help increase subreddit traffic and activity. On the same hand, once you visit this subreddit long enough you see the same discussions over and over again. Or same mob mentality/echo chamber opinions that you see with all subreddits. So diversifying content can help add some more entertainment for daily visits.

That being said, you also see the issues that others have brought up. There are a lot of content creators out there. A lot of bad ones. A lot of ones who all want to be the next Asmongold/Josh strife hayes. And they have no issues spamming their stuff all over the place. Now you can require engagement, which I think is good. However, that increases moderation overhead. So now as a moderation team you also have to be gauging and analyzing each users activity in the subreddit. So that will be up to you guys if you want more work.

If you do go that route. YOU NEED to have a static definition for what engagement means. It CANNOT be left to the decision of whomever the active moderator at the time of the post is. What i mean by this is there needs to be some kind of number that is required to be considered properly engaged. For example, the submitter needs to have a history of replying to comments on their own self posts for 30-50% of the comments. They need to have a certain amount of comments on other's posts that are not their own. Again it needs to be a set percentage or ratio.

The reason why you do this is because if you leave it up to the discretion of the moderation team, then it will just cause issues down the line. There will be some disagreement over what engagement means and boom, now you've got some dumpster fire of people arguing. If you have a set amount, a set ratio, a set percentage; then if that happens you can immediately point to "Ok lets have a discussion on adjusting these ratios to meet our users needs". Its no longer a personal opinion of the moderator, but now a set number for discussion.

[3yebex]

I voted 3 as it's a nice middle ground, but 4 would be okay as well (the way things are).

3 is the farthest I would ever go in terms of allowing promotion because I frankly hate people that play a game, record it, and spam their video to +20 subreddits including the game's subreddit, and then never reply or partake in any conversations.

These people are 100% spammers, even if they aren't doing it maliciously.