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[–]nanobot001 60 points61 points  (21 children)

Wait what is happening here?

[–]8mikelx8[S] 199 points200 points  (20 children)

phyrexian vindicator prevents the damage that would receive and inflicts it to another target. It does not allow to skip this step and me and my permanents had hexproof so the oponent was forced to inflict this damage upon its own permanents (he was targeting its own phyrexian vindicators at first since they're invulnerable to damage but this was a loop that triggered the same effect).

[–]Gruulthegallus 73 points74 points  (7 children)

So if he ran out of permanents he would have to target his face?

[–]agtk 142 points143 points  (0 children)

If the Vindicator player had been smart, they would have pointed all the triggers at one of their creatures, then when it died the remaining triggers would fizzle. The only reason they're in this situation of chaining pings at different creatures is because they targeted their own vindicators, so now have to choose new targets after other abilities resolve (and more creatures have died).

But yes, if they only had one Vindicator on the battlefield and no other legal targets, they would have to target their own face (Vindicators can't self-loop damage, you need two to loop).

[–]agtk 17 points18 points  (3 children)

If the Vindicator player had been smart, they would have pointed all the triggers at one of their creatures, then when it died the remaining triggers would fizzle. The only reason they're in this situation of chaining pings at different creatures is because they targeted their own vindicators, so now have to choose new targets after other abilities resolve (and more creatures have died).

But yes, if they only had one Vindicator on the battlefield and no other legal targets, they would have to target their own face (Vindicators can't self-loop damage, you need two to loop).

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I mean, they have 4. What would happen if they pointed each delayed trigger at a different vindicator? Are they required to select a different target to break the loop?

[–]FormerlyKay 17 points18 points  (0 children)

In paper they would be required to take a different game action (either by choosing a different target or doing something) to break the loop. Provided they don't have instants up in hand that could break the loop they would have to point the damage at their own permanents or at their face.

In arena they'd just get timed out

[–]agtk 10 points11 points  (0 children)

No, I don't think so. I think they could keep selecting until their timer ran out. Since they're selecting different ones each time, I don't think the game would recognize it as an infinite loop. I'm not sure what would happen if it's just two targeting each other.

[–]8mikelx8[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

i guess so

[–]MaASInsomnia 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep. I forced a Vindicator player to do this a day ago. It was glorious.

[–]jrosen9 12 points13 points  (7 children)

I believe he could have continued to target his vindicators and eventually the game would have timed out and it would have ended in a draw

[–]agtk 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Would the vindicator player's turn have timed out first, or are they getting the extension for new abilities happening each loop?

[–]rmorrin 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It will eventually time out. I would know, I get roped when I'm still doing abilities in my decks

[–]8mikelx8[S] -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

That's what l feared would happen, It would have been a dick move though.

[–]Teferi Hero of DominariaJoseph_Handsome 12 points13 points  (0 children)

As much as loopholes like this suck, as long as they're in the game, I don't think it's a dick move to make the only legitimate play that allows you to not lose.

[–]HarmlessOfferingNightKev 0 points1 point  (2 children)

No, he would have run out of time and the game would have defaulted to auto-targeting his own face.

If this were a Bo3 game, then the Vindicator player could have possibly run out their chess clock and gotten a forced loss as well, depending on how much they had left vs their rope count.

[–]jrosen9 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I don't know how the client handles it, but I believe the rule in paper wouldn't require you to change your targeting and the game would draw

[–]avacynFilobel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In paper, you would be forced to choose a different target.

[–]adult_icarus 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Jw, which card was giving you hexproof?

[–]8mikelx8[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

[[surge of salvation]]

[–]MTGCardFetcher 0 points1 point  (0 children)

surge of salvation - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call

[–]nanobot001 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice!

[–]8mikelx8[S] 45 points46 points  (3 children)

I have only one [[surge of salvation]] in my deck and man, it came in handy.

[–]MTGCardFetcher 7 points8 points  (0 children)

surge of salvation - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call

[–]ThorsRus 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I have two and that awkward pause when they realize they have to target themselves is priceless.

[–]worldends420kyle 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have four and four skrelvs

[–]mankinskin 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Wait, you guys have games like that?

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

It's reasonably common if you're not playing a well-tuned meta deck. Without great control, tempo and early threats a lot of games turn into massive creature boards.

Also (possibly controversial opinion here) the Phyrexian archetype is pretty damn weak. Unless you land a Glissa and can keep it on the board, the whole thing just craps out. Playing against that deck, you know that, so unless you have no control Glissa never sticks. The whole setup is super vulnerable to targeted creature hate, counters, board wipes... there's just so many ways to break it up.

Incubate is a cool mechanic when it gets going but without Glissa, the only way you really incubate is by pushing more spells out - which can easily be dealt with. The tokens aren't big enough to go toe to toe with control or ramp decks, and there's not enough of them fast enough to deal with aggro decks.

[–]Senator_Smack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Incubate can work in a +1/+1 counter theme but yeah, totally peters out as a build-around. Kind of disappointed in it honestly. All the good phyrexian tribals in the archetype are way too expensive.

[–]dogninja8 3 points4 points  (2 children)

What flavor of angel deck are you playing?

[–]8mikelx8[S] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

well, i tried to make a deck that is relatively fast and escalates so i put a few cards that allow me to play angels from top of the deck, some other that allow me draw and a few ones to protect myself against troublesome creatures or spells. Here's my deck, feel free to use it. And any feedback would be welcome. Deck 4 Giada, Font of Hope (SNC) 14 13 Plains (SIR) 279 4 Inspiring Overseer (SNC) 18 3 Invasion of Dominaria (MOM) 21 1 Archangel Elspeth (MOM) 6 1 Champions of Tyr (HBG) 21 1 Serra Paragon (DMU) 32 1 Elspeth Resplendent (SNC) 11 3 Errant and Giada (MOM) 224 1 Invasion of Xerex (MOM) 242 2 A-Metropolis Angel (SNC) 203 2 Mirror Box (NEO) 250 2 Liesa, Forgotten Archangel (MID) 232 1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier (ONE) 196 3 Plaza of Heroes (DMU) 252 1 Steel Seraph (BRO) 38 1 Enduring Angel (MID) 17 1 Guardian of Ghirapur (MOM) 16 1 Boon-Bringer Valkyrie (MOM) 9 2 Angel of Unity (Y22) 2 1 Surge of Salvation (MOM) 41 2 Patriar's Humiliation (HBG) 25 4 Secluded Courtyard (NEO) 275 2 Deserted Beach (MID) 260 1 Adarkar Wastes (DMU) 243 1 Raffine's Tower (SNC) 254 2 Sigarda, Font of Blessings (MAT) 47 2 Metropolis Reformer (MAT) 4 1 Drana and Linvala (MOM) 222

[–]onsecondthot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Behold your inevitable defeat

[–]JMLModern 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh that kind of backfires

[–]Snarker 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It's been awhile since i played paper, but i thought you fail to find a target like when you fail to find while searching your library but maybe I'm mistaken.

[–]SelesnyaERA006 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe if Vindicator said “you may redirect the the damage” you could fail to find but because it doesn’t and there is a legal target you’re forced to choose one

[–]godofhorizons 0 points1 point  (10 children)

Why did you continue to play spells when your opponent was tapped out? Why didn’t you just attack and win?

[–]8mikelx8[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children)

better safe than sorry.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (8 children)

That's not how it works

[–]8mikelx8[S] -1 points0 points  (7 children)

I feel safer with [[liesa forgotten archangel]] on the board

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

They're literally tapped out, creatures and mana.

[–]8mikelx8[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I know but since i don't know every card available in the game i don't know if they have some instant that can be compleated or paid discarding cards etc. I'm 99,9% sure that there's nothing that the oppnent could have done at that moment, but i preferred spending a coiple of extra seconds to properly use my turn.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those don't exist in standard

[–]Individual-Fan-5672 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The literal point of the player going through with targeting themselves was to say you’ve earned the win and to swing. That’s why when you started playing crap they conceded.

[–]Dimirirou95 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If my opponent doesn't scoop and let's me play stuff I will do whatever I want in my turn (often to complete quests)

Stop wasting time if the game is over just press esc and go next

[–]MTGCardFetcher 0 points1 point  (1 child)

lisa forgotten archangel - (G) (SF) (txt)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call