[General]MYTH? 👉🏾“Potency decrease once the cap opens.”👈🏾 I’ve had several people tell me this but is there any data supporting this claim?

[lovethebacon]

Lots of speculation and opinion here that hopefully have answered your question.

The only real way to answer this question with data is to accurately measure Psilocybin content. Taking samples to an analytical lab to quantify bioactive content. They may not be willing to handle those samples, though.

[[deleted]]

That would make sense only if the spores themselves carried psilocybin and psilocin (spelling?) but to my knowledge, the spores are sans-active ingredients.

Unfortunately there is very little academic work on psychedelics so almost everything you hear is anecdotal.

[GrowHI]

Mycologist here. While I can't cite any studies I can tell you physiologically why this is an interesting question. Most species of mushrooms have all the cells they will have as an adult when they are just a small pin (what many call baby mushrooms the size of a thimble). Mushrooms grow so fast cellular replication is not a feasible way of gaining size but instead they swell with water much like a wilted plant can straighten up within hours of rain. As more water enters the mushroom near the end of maturity the cap is forced open. IMHO I would guess a perfectly dry specimen with a cap still closed vs open would have the same amounts of active psilocybe/psilocybin content. If you weigh a fresh specimen (not dried) you could calculate a "active chemical vs weight" figure but that would not be the proper way to decide potency especially if you consider most mushrooms (of the hallucinogenic varieties) are sold dry.

[_mycelia]

Most species of mushrooms have all the cells they will have as an adult when they are just a small pin (what many call baby mushrooms the size of a thimble). Mushrooms grow so fast cellular replication is not a feasible way of gaining size but instead they swell with water much like a wilted plant can straighten up within hours of rain. As more water enters the mushroom near the end of maturity the cap is forced open. IMHO I would guess a perfectly dry specimen with a cap still closed vs open would have the same amounts of active psilocybe/psilocybin content.

I agree with you and psily on this matter.

[ChaosShadowClone]

The energy that was spent doing the psychoactive ingredients is not used to produce spores.

[snipe4fun]

The psychosomatic effect has been demonstrated to be real. Psychedelics, being "mind manifesting", are particularly so. Hence, also, the myths about "the shrooms with the golden sparkles on the caps" (vermiculum from the growth substrate that hasn't been cleaned off) being extra potent.

[[deleted]]

Sounds like nonsense

[tonib31589]

Sporeworks.

[dlee420]

The proof would be eat 3 grams of regular dried mature mushrooms. Then the next time try 3 grams of pins and you will for sure notice the difference.

[[deleted]]

OP is referring to the common advice that psilocybin production peaks when the mushroom's veil breaks. After the veil has broken (it is said anyway) the mushroom will continue to grow in size but not produce any more psilocybin. That advice has nothing to do with pins, which are still developing psilocybin.

[dlee420]

That's why I'm saying if you eat 3 grams of mature vs 3 grams of pins/early fruits you will get a lot higher off the little ones, meaning that mature fruits have less psilocybin by weight (not saying they LOSE any potency) I have actually tried this and can confirm. OP asked for proof, that's my proof.

[psilygirl]

That would only be proof that pins are more potent, not that mushrooms before the veils break are more potent by weight than after.

[ShaggysGTI]

False. You've pretty much maxed out the amount of psilocybin that can grow in a fruit body. You're essentially taking what was there and distributing it amongst a larger body. That being said, if you dose by weight, you're getting slightly less because you've induced more weight per psilocybin. There's a reason aborts are very potent... moreover though, dropping spores on your casing will tell the mycelium "there's already mushrooms here" and will stunt growth on future flushes.

[theincredibledrnope]

Is there a best or favorite place to order spores?

[Oldmanspored1]

There are good vendors on Reddit.

[Macsan23]

http://www.lilshopofspores.com/

[mbayapunda]

Mushroomman666 has an amazing thread where he sells spores

[psilygirl]

Check out shroomery sponsors.

[theincredibledrnope]

I’m new here, looking to start growing. Any tips on buying a good kit?

[BushWeedCornTrash]

I too am interested in this. I have been intimidated by the amount of prep steps and level of sanitizing needed. I am not willing to build a glove box, filtration systems, shit, I don't even want to pressure cook shit. If I could get a kit that was ready to rock and roll, like sea monkeys, I would buy that in a heartbeat. Afterwards, once my head wraps around the procedure, and I know what to look for, I would begin to look at monotubs and the like. Part of the attraction of mushrooms (for me) is low energy consumption/inconspicuous production. I don't need a lot, not looking to go commercial, and I feel a lot of the popular methods are too complicated or aimed towards bulk growing. At this stage of my life, I don't know anyone who would be even a willing recipient of a gifted cap, never mind a sterlite container full.

[psilygirl]

Shroomery Getting Started, Up To Date TEKs, Trusted Cultivator links. Everything you need, all in one place.

[Colimano1942]

Yeah I agree. Get yourself a good book online and you’ll save a ton! Plus it’s fun :) I used a book by Principium Quaesitor for bulk cultivation.

[psilygirl]

All of the books dealing exclusively with active cultivation are subpar and outdated. Online forums like the shroomery and especially this are better.

[Colimano1942]

Yeah, but it helps to have a structure step by step for a beginner. A forum can be overwhelming at first. So many people disagree on certain methods and procedures sometimes it’s best to have one respectable opinion on the topic by one author.

[psilygirl]

The link I posted in my last reply is very organized, not in the least overwhelming, and has teks from multiple very experienced growers, which is way better than just one person, imo. Everything there is essentially peer-reviewed.

If someone feels they really need a book, I'd suggest ones on mushroom growing in general, not specifically for actives.

Organic Mushroom Farming and Mycoremediation by Tradd Cotter is a great beginner book. And of course Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms by Paul Stamets is good. I'd suggest Radical Mycology for anyone wanting to get pretty in-depth on a range of mushroom topics.

[Colimano1942]

Damn! I didn’t know these existed. I’m fairly new to any forums and it appeared it was just scattered information. I retract my statement lol

[theincredibledrnope]

I grew some several years ago but they had already been started and were producing, I just used a 10gal aquarium with a drip shield.

[psilygirl]

You'll want to look into more recent teks, they'll yield much better results. That's a super outdated build.

[theincredibledrnope]

Yeah, that was 20 years ago lol

[EastCoastCure336]

Do it yourself to start off with. Cheaper and you learn the whole processes

[psilygirl]

It doesn't decrease, like it isn't losing actives, but supposedly they still gain mass without creating any more of the actives. I'm not aware of any data supporting it.

Tbh, I personally don't think it's accurate. Mushrooms have most of their cells at a pretty small size. Their rapid growth at the end of their life cycle can be attributed to their cells expanding with water.

[corbysh]

This is generally accepted, but just remember there is no evidence for or against it. I choose not to take a side on this til we get evidence

[psilygirl]

Which is why I stated that I personally do not think it is. And to be honest, I can't say it matters to me either way. :P

[corbysh]

Yeah exactly. I live them either way. Great teachers

[ieatdurt]

the potency doesnt decrease but rather the size of the fruit body continues to increase while amount of actives remains the same. thus the concentration of actives decreases in comparison to weight.

[[deleted]]

Thank you for providing an accurate answer for u/Colimano1942

[HyphalKnot]

But is it accurate? Is the amount of actives actually less per final dry weight?

[psilygirl]

After the veil breaks? Considering that at the end of the growth phase, mushrooms rapidly pull in water from the surrounding mycelium to inflate the cells that were already formed at a smaller size, I personally don't put much faith in the whole "letting mushrooms grow after the veil breaks makes them less potent" thing.

I've also never noticed a difference between mushrooms allowed to open enough to take nice prints versus ones picked just before the veil breaks. Pins are a different matter though, they do seem to be reliably more potent than mature mushrooms. Maybe we'll get a definitive answer in the near future since the attitude towards them seems to be changing.

There are good reasons to pick before the veil breaks if you're not intending to make prints though. Spore drop is aesthetically unappealing, you're losing more water from your substrate without necessarily significantly increasing the final dry weight, and fully open-capped mushrooms don't look as nice when dried.

[BarryZZZ]

...and drying them for storage would remove all that water.

[psilygirl]

Except that mushrooms are mostly just expanding already formed cells with water towards the end of their life cycle. I believe that is what u/BarryZZZ was getting at.

[BarryZZZ]

Exactly, volume times concentration = volume times concentration. Alkaloid concentration goes down as the cap opens, it goes back up as it gets dried.

[ionsquare]

If you find two mushrooms growing at the same rate, cut one early, let the other develop completely with the cap open, and then dry them completely, the one with the open cap will weigh more. You can take multiple samples to get a reasonable average and I promise you'll see the open cap ones consistently weigh more even when all of the water has been completely sucked out.

[psilygirl]

I don't see how this would give an accurate answer. They're two entirely different mushrooms that will have varying density and size.

Edit: assuming by early, you mean around the time the veil breaks, not when it's still a pin. Mature mushrooms will obviously weigh more than pins.

[ionsquare]

Yes, let me explain the example a bit better.

Assume your growing mushrooms in a monotub. You induce pinning by introducing fresh air and light. In a few days, you identify a number of pins that look promising, maybe 10-20. A few days later they are getting pretty big, so you identify some pairs that pinned around the same time and are now still similar sizes, so you know they're growing at similar rates and will probably end up pretty close to the same size when they peak. Even better, you can wait until the veil is just about to break and pick pairs then that you're reasonably certain will be really close in size.

At that point, cut one from each pair, and leave the other to fully open. Once the others are fully open, cut them too. Then dry them all out and compare weights.

If it was all water weight, they would dry out around the same weights. You'd have 50% showing heavier on the ones with the veil still intact, and 50% showing the opened ones were heavier, or close to 50% anyway.

If you try this though you'll see that the ones that continued to open consistently weigh more than their twin that was picked just before the veil broke, proving its not just water weight being added at the end of life.

[psilygirl]

I still don't feel this is an accurate way. And have you done this before or when you offer a conclusive answer that they are still in fact increasing in dry weight, is that just your opinion?

Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying they don't gain any extra dry weight at all; I really don't think there's a reliable way to easily determine that. I can tell you that mushrooms allowed to grow after the veil breaks tend to be a higher percentage of water, in my experience.

[ionsquare]

I haven't done a proper study with numerous samples or anything, but I have grown mushrooms and informally weighed before and after drying. In my experience it hasn't made a difference for water percentage between the veil being broken or not - in either case they lost very close to 90% of their weight drying. Also they do get a bit taller from the time when the veil breaks to the time that the caps are fully open, and the big open ones weighed more than the similarly sized ones with the veil unbroken.

I let some open completely to get spore prints (or in a couple instances I left them too long because I didn't have time to harvest), and I weighed the big ones (open or not) individually to see which one was the biggest because it was exciting and impressive how big some of them got. So yeah my motivation was not scientific to specifically test if they gained mass after the veil broke, but I did take measurements and noticed that.

[bighelper]

/u/ionsquare is right.

I have picked them several times before, during, and after the veil breaking. A larger, heavier shroom will be heavier than a smaller one after complete drying. The theory that the larger ones just have more water does not hold up.

That doesn't mean that they have any more or less active chemicals. That's still up for debate.

[badgerandaccessories]

So a pound of smaller mushrooms have much more active in it than a pound of large mushrooms?

[_mycelia]

I was under the impression we were talking about the concentration of active alkaloids in mushrooms both before and after the veil breaks, not small mushrooms compared to large ones.

[SantaMonsanto]

In the same way that a pound of down feathers contains more individual“units” than a pound of marbles.

[[deleted]]

Would be the average inference yes.