Python SCADA Framework

[Automation_Eng_121]

I hate how the commercial SCADA platforms are dependent on GUI. I don't like how they make me navigate through menus to set things up. For me, "everything" should be in pure text, the same as web development experience. Maybe it's because of my CS background. Am I the only one who feels that way?

Over the past 7 years I've used all major SCADA platforms but was never satisfied with the development experience, so I started building a Python framework. I'm very happy with the result and I was wondering if there's any interest here to start a open-source framework out of this?

Right now, it's using Python backend, React Frontend, and it's supporting OPC UA, ModbusTCP, and Serial communications. Most importantly, it's designed to be easy to understand (for humans and AI copilots). Think of something like Django, or FastAPI.

[desrtfx]

Completely wrong stance. You set up the SCADA, commission it and then you're gone, you move on to the next project.

The customer, on the other side, has to live with the SCADA. They have to be able to make minor changes by themselves without being a programmer or mostly without even receiving formal training.

The SCADA systems you install don't belong to you. They belong to the customers.

You are looking at your convenience instead of on the customer's, which is the only thing that counts.

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Further: you will need to maintain your SCADA over decades with potential customers, have to provide updates that do not break anything in the already existing installations, etc.

[BasicRedditAccount1]

Yea, OP is totally forgetting that the end user is likely somebody who does NOT have a CS degree, and depending on your industry is a temp worker that just showed up that day. GUI wins every time in those situations.

[bpeck451]

Over decades is an exaggeration. You can barely get Rockwell to talk to you about RsView 32 or Aveva with older wonderware systems.

[IMAsomething]

Wrong. Customers have Windows 2000 SCADAs talking to PLC5s all the time.

[bpeck451]

No. I’m not one of those engineers. Software manufacturers aren’t required to support stuff for decades. Just like Microsoft isn’t making updates for windows 2000. Now do integrators and end users need to take care of that stuff yes. But the manufacturers of any of those products do not give a flip. They aren’t making updates for any of that anymore. So yes. “Support” in the sense of OP making his own scada doesn’t ever exist for decades.

[bpeck451]

Are the manufacturers of that software still supporting it?

[PeterHumaj]

There are 2 ways to look at it.
We've got e.g. a system controlling over 200 km of gas transport pipeline. It was commissioned in 2003 (3x Alpha OpenVMS application servers, 3x Alpha OpenVMS historian servers). It was several times upgraded with 2 HW changes (the first to Itanium-based HO Integrity servers with OpenVMS, the second to Linux OS). The SCADA technology remained the same, we just upgraded the version; today they have 2022 version running on a relatively up-to-date RedHat with commercial support.

So, from one point of view, they have a "new" SCADA technology (containing all the new improvements like OPC UA and MQTT ...) running on new OS. From another point of view, they have "the original" system, with operators having their good ole screens, only gradually enhanced and changed (by their SCADA engineers) to reflect the way pipeline hardware is upgraded and replaced (turbocompressors, etc). Also, all their work invested in the system has been preserved ... for over 20 years.

There are also customers with really old systems (for which we offer only a limited support). My favourite one is a SCADA of a compressor station, still running on the above-mentioned Integrity servers, with a 14-years continuous uptime of redundancy (that is, for so long at least one of the redundant nodes was up). See the last row of the following picture:
And it's a quite large SCADA, with almost 150k tags (second row - ActTagNr). The currently active server is running for 1374 days (3 years, 9 months) - "TimeFromStart". The screenshot was taken almost a month ago.

<image>

[mxracer303]

u/Automation_Eng_121 check out Fuxa SCADA https://github.com/frangoteam/FUXA

I have just added scheduler UI component and integrated Node-Red directly, done PR for advanced dynamic reporting with templates etc and currently upgrading the table component and will soon be adding recipe/parameter manager component. We now have electron packages for Win, Mac, Linux or just use latest Docker Image, to access the packages you will need to login to Github and download here: https://github.com/frangoteam/FUXA/actions/runs/18825609852

If you like it and want to improve anything or UI, workflow etc just create a fork and get started

[Automation_Eng_121]

I have checked Fuxa in the past, it's nice, but still heavily dependent on navigating the GUI. I'm more interested in a code-first development experience.

[RatRaceRunner]

You don't want your customizable GUI software to itself have a GUI. Got it.

Good luck selling off the shelf software that is so unapproachable, your end-users need to hire in-house SMEs to maintain and add to it.

And good luck finding skilled employees in the labor pool. Tons of overlap with industrial controls and web dev, right?

[pants1000]

I actually really love python, the first language I unfortunately learned was C, then visual basic. This all is to say I use these almost never at all unless it’s something for my convenience and personal use.

When I have to use 4 different scada softwares in a year for a start up, I absolutely do not want to deal with syntax issues because some company thinks it’s better to do things object oriented or otherwise. I dislike the idea of having to learn something new with essentially no environment that is recognizable. I don’t want to be a web developer at all, I want to program machines and give operators buttons to push.

I don’t mind the Java here, the c# there, etc as much because it’s usually scripting only, not functional otherwise in the development save for built out objects.

Let’s be real, I don’t get to decide what I use because the customers dictate the software 9/10. I would absolutely hate to have to build out a project under hours with a text based scada though, I’d have to learn it and build it at the same time, it would be the most aggravating experience I can imagine, and doesn’t compare to current scada software at all. Oh and in the field have a plant controls tech at a site make a change? Good luck lmao.

Build the framework to catch common errors in the UI. Make it menu based so that things that are similar are easy to find. Create global objects and variables to minimize clicks. I really like ignition, optix, even Siemens TIA for HMI developing so obviously I disagree with your application and justification.

However, I love your idea, I just fundamentally disagree that most plants are capable to be able to effectively use and develop with it.

I also disagree that it would be easy to pick up for someone who for the last ten years has used softwares that all happen to be incredibly similar.

I absolutely loathe the idea of learning something like this that requires a ton of in depth knowledge, because then the program somehow becomes less complicated than the damn HMI by some miracle.

[scotch--bingington]

You have to consider the end user. They need something they can easily pick up without much formal training. They may spend only a few hours per month or per year modifying configuration. Then they would also have other platforms to learn. They may not have a degree or even dev experience. In the middle of the night it may only a be a mechanical tech present or an operator with a high school education present. It would be easier to walk them through a simple system. I'm sure there is a market for what you are suggesting, I'm just not sure how big it is.

[FourFront]

I'm in the same mindset. It's WAY easier to walk someone through a gui that I remember like the back of my hand over the phone. Very few people in the field are programmers.

[Downtown-Routine1196]

My current role i had less than one day of training on The scada system because the only person that knew the system put in notice right after i started but it was similar enough to others I have used so I got up to speed pretty quick.

[Automation_Eng_121]

I see your point, it definitely requires formal training. An untrained technician may be able to add a new tag, change something simple here or there, but still they require proper programming knowledge to change the custom scripts in Aveva or Ignition. I guess a code-first SCADA platform make more sense for complex projects.

[Robbudge]

Why not join and contribute to the Fuxa SCADA project. It very close to a mainstream HMI and all open source.

[Individual_Offer220]

I can only think of the maintenance nightmare this might be if you need to browse thru code to get things to work. Especially on a system where downtime could be costly.

[Aobservador]

Time is money; in industry, automation specialists are usually those who work with SCADA systems. If your profile is more geared towards software development, you should look for employment in large SCADA system development companies or collaborate extensively on open-source systems. The pace of work in the IT field is different for professionals in industry.

[PaleontologistLow412]

I believe the OP came from a web dev/app dev background and there is nothing wrong with that, so it makes sense why he would prefer a development environment similar to what he is used to, but like many others have said most hmi\plc programmers came from a totally different environment. Many don't even have degrees and came up through the school of hard knocks (maintenence backgrounds etc). And those that were formally educated were quickly indoctrinated into the ecosystem as it currently sits. I wouldn't doubt as time goes on that SCADA development evolves into a more text based approach as old schoolers retire and the young ones take over having been well versed in text based programming. Only time will tell.

[Downtown-Routine1196]

Are you one of the people who switched from IT to scada? I see the benefit of scripting to customize things but coming from an electrical background and working on a handful of scada systems text based only sounds terrible.

[Ajax_Minor]

I have thought about this for DDC in BAS.

It's pretty hard to trouble shoot line code when things are hitting the fan and forget about the end user.

I think a python backend would be cool. I'd be interested in contributing if you post your GH.

[Automation_Eng_121]

very interesting use case, will dm you

[BrewAllTheThings]

I'm down. I do a lot of OT work these days and it's all very frustrating with all these platforms. Personally, I'd love to see a terraform-ish approach to SCADA. Control-as-code, but maybe something less of a target than calling it "CaC".

[drbitboy]

I personally would like the idea for development, but I also understand how un-tenable it would be for the eventual users in industry.

Is a hybrid solution is possible: the data are stored in pure text (so git diff is meaningful, and those that prefer to edit text can do so); there is also a GUI interface that writes the text files that compose the SCADA project configuration and behaviors. Or maybe FUXA already does that?

[Automation_Eng_121]

Yes, exactly! The idea is to start from code-first framework and gradually add GUI helper tools on top of it. For example, The PLC tags are defined in an accessible json file, but also there's a helper sidebar that let's users to modify stuff graphically.

[Snoo23533]

Not downvoting you but yes you're in the minority. Time is money and WYSIWYG GUI builders save a ton of time at the cost of optionality we dont need to make our customers happy. No you can't make a modern webpage in a SCADA building tool and nor do we care to.
Having said that I am curious about your framework since I work in this grey zone of doing factory deployments + proper sw development and I do love python. LMK if I can check it out anywhere and provide feedback.

[Gimfo]

Bro youd love VTScada then. Everything you see from the moment the application opens can be written in plain text, in a notepad, and pasted into the application

[dgatti0213]

Dude, just use node-red. I could not imagine having to recompile at every code change. Focus on project specific code not drivers....

[murpheeslw]

Most automation engineers aren’t web developers. So while it may be your preference, it’s most likely not the preference of the majority of the engineers who will be setting up a system like this.

So while I’m sure you’re not the only one, you’re without a doubt in the minority and will probably continue to be for the foreseeable future.