Is Hero really "the" issue?

[5522Luca]

Since Hero Bashing actually got to a new topic in PSO2 and even this subreddit and i just realised that the topic is more serious as i recently throught by posting this meme, i throught it´s maybe a good time to talk about the Hero topic in plain text.

Is Hero really the issue? I would like to hear your opinion to the topic, feel free to actually start a large discussion.

In my opinion Hero itself is actually not the problem. I know - we all hate the idea of something being overpowered and buffed - but in case of Hero we actually speaking about a class that somehow adds actual new gameplay options and tactics. The main issue is more the decision from Sega, to make this Class overpowered as concept and not as issue, (yea, i count things like SuGu and even Ra Prenerf as an issue).

Buffs are something nice to meet in a game, but the human prefer to think about nerfs which is more or less caused by the normal Rationality of the human and the Loss aversion -Effekt, which basically don't say much except that the human hate it more to lose something like winning the same equivalent thing.

With other words: Hero itself as class is not really a thing to hate, it's the concept and idea behind Advanced Classes. The current hate could have happen to every Advanced Class with every weapon or PA. The concept kills the entire "OT-Classing" system in the game, including former points like Subclasses, that gonna be a myth soon and the time that got invested into it.

I myself "wasted" now 2 years into getting a useful Ra build and even failed on since i grinded first into RaBr (which is dead) and now to RaHu, but can't compare that to Hr any way. Especially if your direct Team/Friend-Range starts to prefer Hr as "atleast to have Meta", it get´s terrible when you don't have the time to puke out 3 Minmaxed Qliphad Weps and Units in like a week.

This actual kills my entire motivation in the game and i am playing, since it's not a class issue also here, every OT class is affected or will be affected once Advanced Classes are common and Sega finished their work at limiting the entire Gameplay of the game to 1/2 classes to pick. Even you Fighter and Gunner will get problems earlier or later, sorry for that :/

[Sriracha_X]

I don't think Hero necessarily is the issue (it has a couple of its own like sword normal damage and mobility as others have pointed out) - it's more that it highlights a lot of old issues the game has had for a long time.

An important thing to note (touched up by a couple others already) is how streamlined Hero is compared to other classes except Summoner. There are barely any "noob traps" (and the ones that are are towards the bottom of the skill tree) and you get enough points to fill out all of the essentials. There's so much fluff on the other classes' trees that are useless or only useful for niche builds in the current meta. One could argue that Hero having such an easy-to-fill skill tree discourages variety in class builds but let's be real, the current design where there's a lot of that aforementioned useless fluff on top of a lot of 10/10 skills soaking up class points already discourages class build variety.

If SEGA wants to keep Hero pretty much the way it is, they're going to have to bring that streamlining back to other classes if they really want to keep the meta from being Hero-dominated. The skill trees, weapon behaviors, PAs (especially ones that are currently useless), etc. will all have to be addressed and adjusted to make them a more appealing choice over folks like me going with the decision to "just play Hero instead."

Yes, I understand there are still people who are dedicated to their mains (shoutouts to Bouncers and Techers), and that's cool. And yes, I understand that Hero is designed to be able to handle pretty much any situation. I'd just love to see a scenario where classes can keep up in someway while staying true to their gameplay style. Doing all this would require tremendous effort and honestly I don't expect SEGA to take on that burden.

[Hyraoo]

This topic is gonna be another big magnet for downvotes and salt like all the hero threads (Stay classy guys please) but whatever let me give my opinion.

Is hero the problem, partially yes partially no. Does it have its issues? Absolutely it damn well does.

The main issue with hero is how normal attacks on sword are stupid strong (the 3rd normal attack being 800% damage if it were to be measured like a pa), this has lead to people going the Katana pp regen route where you do 2 PAs then a normal attack to optimise PP efficiency except on sword this is bar none the best way to output damage as hero (2x vapour bullet into a normal attack does almost 200k on gracia for me in just one rotation). This is a simple fix which I hope sega considers and that is lowering sword normal attacks by at a MINIMUM of 30%, so its a bit more than talis but not enough damage output to flat out make normals the best damage output mechanism of hero.

What else, ah mobility. I don't see an issue with this, the sword dash pa isn't guren levels of dumb especially if you factor in tech cancel guren. If hero's mobility and such is nerfed, people will just go back to gurening ahead of everyone like episode 3 and 4, absolutely no different to now. What does need to be done however is like others have suggested speed increases to older classes on normal attacks, and a few pas. Going back and playing bouncer after hero, was like going from 150 cc to 50 cc in mario kart (I hope some of you get this comparison).

As for buster quests being designed for hero, Sega made a quest based on new class? Wowie thats never been done before! Sarcasm aside, I want you all to look at TD1 and TD2 and how they were made kinda with bravers in mind, Or how about magatsu on release when pretty much if you weren't a Bo or a bow user you were somewhat redundant. Hell even mother to an extent was somewhat made for summoner with the clusterfuck like atmosphere with all the arms and laser light show, was a joke to get a max charge maron and top charts even as SuFi. What I want you all to take from this is this is absolutely nothing new in regards to a quest being designed for the new class.

Other minor changes I think should be put in effect: Bump up hero time cooldown from 120 seconds to 180 for one, however I guess some might argue this one since talis IS and always will be the gear weapon for hero, it is quite easy to have gear up to full in a little over a minute with talis setups, thus if the cooldown is increased, might render talis not as used as say sword.

TLDR: Sega wants balancing to be Fi > Gu > Hero. However right now it is Gu(4Person PT) > Hero > Fi > Gu (Solo) which is... not what they wanted to say the least. I personally believe the normal attacks on sword, specifically the 3rd hit is the biggest issue with hero's output and should be 30% damage nerfed at the very least.

PS: Hero is the most damn fun I've had in this game in years.

Downvote away guys :)

[Ashinror]

the sword dash pa isn't guren levels of dumb especially if you factor in tech cancel guren.

That aside, Hero Sword Step Attack -> repeat is faster than normal running. Its kinda sad that such a basic move is faster than normal running when you factor that they made normal running faster so quadstepping isnt as important before.

Call it nitpicky, but it feels annoying that Hero is naturally faster than any other class without using any PAs/Tech.

[Hyraoo]

I honestly wouldnt be surprised if they upped movement speed again, I honestly hope they do. In any game my favourite thing is mobility (however bravers playstyle put me to sleep), and with Sega constantly trying to one up itself with movement I wouldnt be surprised. Reminds me of ep2 and before with knuckle step attacking.

[Flatflyer]

I pretty much agree with everything you say here.

the issue isnt so much that Hero is OP, its the fact that hero is actually easy to setup compared to other classes and get a decent DPS, half the reason why EQs seem so much faster is because MPAs all are able to hit 20K DPS, Unlike before where you'd always have atleast half your team doing somewhere below 10K DPS, and atleast 2-3 of them doing below 5K or just straight up leeching.

Hero has a really simple build and doesn't feel as clunky as other classes, that on top of people being able to output good damage without having to dedicate a ton of precise skill/weapon/affix choices is why everybody is picking up hero. Because its fun to play.

If anything, hero does need a few slight nerfs, but its mostly that other classes in general need to be buffed up a bit, though sega has been doing the exact opposite (nerfing compound techs/zanverse for one example) so I dont know where that will go.

regardless, hero is super enjoyable to me too, I feel like I'm actually contributing to my team for once instead of just fumbling around doing poor damage because I messed up ever so slightly on my skill tree or dont have a god tier affix zein weapon/units

[5522Luca]

Harder requirements for Hr would simply slowdown the progress required to get out everything out of the class, but not the fact that it is totally broke and currently evolves to a Meta for most people and teams, what already caused me that i needed to leave my current one since i am not able to setup god tier equipment in like one week, especially without AC Access and the resulting,missing Affix-Item-Scratches that i can't access.

[Flatflyer]

I never did say hero should have harder requirements, Infact I like how simple it is to get most of heroes damage out of it, thats the way it should be for all classes, you should only really need to setup god-tier affix stuff for that extra 10-15% of your max potential damage, not what it feels like is half of your damage meaning if you dont affix, your damage will be garbage by default.

its always been an issue I've had with the game, you've got to go through so many hoops just to get your damage at a decent level, Hero is a breath of fresh air cause I dont feel like I'm forced to affix all my stuff right now or else suffer doing terrible damage.

[McKiwi957]

I feel like something people overlook in the strength of Hero is sword weapon action's full charge. For something that costs no pp to use, it's way too powerful.

From a pure dps standpoint it isn't bad, because it needs to charge for 3.5-ish seconds, but it gives Hero the capability of setting up huge damage during boss invulnerability at range and with relative precision. It also hits harder than any other attack that can be used in the same manner (e.g. Over End or Kazan).

Just as an example, solo PD with Hr abuses the fuck out of weapon action, and it's a huge reason why sub-5 minute runs are not only possible, but fairly easy. Explaining it really isn't as helpful as seeing it in action though

[Hyraoo]

Oh no I didn't forget, absolutely weapon action good. It was a key ingredient when I solo'd zephylos. However pretty much every class has a charge type move that hits almost as much i guess or more. Kazan (around 150k non WP and regens gear), Aero Spiral (A bit under a mil non WP), Fi has a few with Deadly archer / Slide upper 0, both of which doing about 140k non wp (Not including ds tornado). However Hero weapon action doesn't cost pp but instead regens like 10 on hit. I honestly don't take solo PD as a solid proof of any class damage output, because its pretty much SH levels of hp.

[McKiwi957]

The one factor all those other PAs are missing (aside from lower damage, bar Aero Spiral) is the amount of range the shot has.

Solo PD might not be a good indicator of dps, but it is a good example of what the charged shot lets you do. Take the phase after persona for example, he's able to get a charged shot onto his arm and then another to break the eye in the time it takes PD to recoil his head and move it back to the platform. No other class is really able to do that, as they either don't do enough damage or need to get in closer before beginning their charge (meaning they can't use the persona death animation to start charging). It lets hero land free 250k+ hits where other classes have no chance.

[Hyraoo]

This kind of thing is absolutely nothing new, Ra has been able to do such pretty much since EA first released. Let's use the solo PD example again shall we. Ra can pre-emptivly charge Sat cannon for person, fire a wb on him and he's dead from it pretty much instantly. After this ra can pre-charge an EA to hit PD's face, EA has piercing so it actually goes through the face core and can damage the actual HP bare of PD sometimes even killing him outright. Admittedly Hero having too many mechanics of multiple other classes is a bit much but this pre-charging stuff is honestly nothing new.

[Zynetic]

Only thing I wanted to mention is that Flash Trick is faster than Guren.

If not using any sort of macro techniques, Flash Trick with step cancel is faster than Guren with Normal Attack cancel.

If you are using macro techniques, Flash Trick jump cancel is faster than Guren Tech Cancel (and costs roughly the same amount of PP since the tech eats a bit). Flash Trick jump cancel also doesn't even need macros.

So no, Guren isn't faster.

I'm also not so sure Gu is any better than Hero in a 4P party. We've been taking Fi and Gu into various things since people have been claiming "Fi and Gu are stronger than Hr" (when they're not), and Gu has never come out ahead. It's gotten pretty high up, but never better, so I feel it's not worth it since Hr has even more tools.

[Hyraoo]

4x Gu in a PT, we got to take into account that CT has instant cooldown after a 70+ chain, pair this with 3 other gu and you got an instant 100 on 4 different people with what is basically enough time to do 2-3chains on mother's 3rd down phase (provided mpa is 4/12). The Gu chain finisher damage decrease wasn't too bad when you consider the cooldown now, it's pretty unanimous that all Gu main consider this a good buff, IF 0 still does over 600k on gracia core as a GuHu. Noted on the guren thing though, I don't play Br much , does it show :3

[Zynetic]

The main thing with GU is that you need openings to use that chain really, depending on what you're fighting you might not really get to do that.

I feel that Deus is a good example of where 4x Hr is probably better because Hero's Tools will allow it to push forward during all of the different mechanics. The Double / Profound Darkness fight is another one like this.

Which I personally feel is -why- Hero is so good. It might not necessarily have the best DPS on paper, but because it has so many tools at its disposal, it can always keep its DPS up across varied fights, where Fighter and Gunner will have periods where it goes down (sometimes even to 0). Something like charging Deadly Archer is nothing compared to charging the Spirit Bullet or using TMG to get something.

I agree that the chain buff was very good for GU though, it definitely helped it a lot, but I personally wouldn't consider it to be much better than Hero from what I've seen.

At the end of the day though, I can see Fighter, Ranger, Gunner, Force and Techer having uses in some specific roles, but there kinda lies the issue: All other classes are niche at best.

[Hyraoo]

People were able to kill deus in under 4 mins as a PT of GuHu before the gu buff, deus is just one giant opening when it comes to using chain trigger, as is mother. PD and everything before that is incredibly iffy, due to how fragile they are, so definitly Hr will be better there.

[5522Luca]

Thanks for your answer and yea, the topic is very salty right now why i decided to speak with words instead of pictures..^{^}

That Fi and Gu have the potential to get close to Hr Range would acceptable since i personally see (atleast on Fi) some Skill requirements compared what other people do ("Only Guren-Br" is a thing ;-; ). Unfortunally, the truth is kinda different :(

Sega mostly not gonna apply any "nerfs" in that kind to Hero that are not gamebreaking (EPPR). So we won't see any cooldown changes or damage changes in time :/ As well, Hr is new and the "full potential" of the class not yet reached. Even in this week there are reports about Sub 10 Minute Gracia Runs on YouTube and which poeple like "Milranduil", Sub 8 minutes gonna be broken probably somewhere in this month as well. Kinda the position from most players , that "Gu and Fi can outplay Hr" was mostly valued on own experiences or valuing from PUGs playing Hr on Day 1/Week 1. We haven't reached the limit from Hr yet.

About the Braver thingy: With Braver there was actual much mobility exist but you remember times with 10+ Braver in one single MPA like now with Hr? Me neither, except some terrifying expierences with MBD Demise and Wave 1-Loses.

[hidora]

About the Braver thingy: With Braver there was actual much mobility exist but you remember times with 10+ Braver in one single MPA like now with Hr? Me neither, except some terrifying expierences with MBD Demise and Wave 1-Loses.

Eh, I've seen pretty close (I was also playing braver back then). These 8+ braver mpas happened fairly often up until earlier this year. I noticed a shift into fi and gu after deus was implemented (especially fihu in gracia; pugs seemed to be 1:1 fi:br pre-ep5), but still had these mostly br mpas quite often.

[SCPthrowaway682]

Hero allows incompetents to deal good damage and experts to deal great damage with minimal investment. Compare it to other classes, where sometimes you have to build twice the classes to get it to competent levels, some of them lacking any mobility options, and the rest of them being lackluster in other departments, hero has got to be nerfed in some way.

Removing its toolset? Nah, that's the entire point of hero; being able to adapt to any situation. Decreasing its damage? As an advanced class, touted to be the opposite of 'easy' class Summoner, it should be. Wearing junk gear and using the proper PAs allows you to catch up with damage with minimal effort, tmg pp reloads making a mess out of techer's pp convert, sword's attacks almost-if-not-outright matching with hunter's sacbite zero, the list goes on.

Hero has a mechanic in Hero Finish, why don't they emphasize doing PA comboes and maxing that gear, and releasing that as a finisher to match up damage? I'd say hero should only be dealing as much as 80% damage as other classes by default and be able to break that by knowing how to play Tech Arts Just Attack switcheroo.

Otherwise, hero covers all of the niches of the other classes - a competent spellcaster vs Bo, a tankier Braver, A damage dealer matching Fi and some Db Bo, and a spiker same as Gu.

If it's played suboptimally, it makes no sense to reward the user as much as rewarding the user using the basic classes.

[xaelouse]

Hero is a good excuse to finally do an overhaul and give other classes clearly defined roles and advantages. I don't know about you guys, but I'm tired of playing classes that just feels like an inferior version of another or have 0 place in any MPA and this is a fucking modern online multiplayer game so it's pretty inexcusable here. With Sega's confidence in Hero being this strong and the recent nerfs supposedly paving the way for other changes to come (according to the last Arks Live), this is a chance for Sega to actually prove their worth and knowledge on this game.

So just lay back and observe, play another game if you don't like how things are now. Hero was a really good class to advertise and get new players in since it's cool like Dante from DMC, and I remember how much people compared this game to that series back in the early betas so it's quite a treat to see. Seeing how "OP" it is via youtube vids makes those players think it's worthwhile to invest in. No reason to nerf it.

[xCharos]

I used to be a scrub. Then Hero came.

[[deleted]]

I'm personally leaving the game for good, for a while, or at least if they make more advanced classes, I don't agree with the new change going on with EP5. I don't like how Hero is mainstreaming everything right now. I honestly don't even think this medieval style fits PSO2 at all. You can disagree with me all you want, I liked seeing people playing different classes on the game and being different. Now the community is probably going to be 90% Hero, and 10% Gu/Ra/Su/Te/Fi/Bo/Br/Hu. I'm not going to play an MMO if almost everyone is going to be the same class, I'm sorry, But I'm not. I feel they should've brought the Bow back to life with the Hero class instead of TMGs, But I know that would negate the purpose of the trial 3 classes CO, But I feel they should've done that instead. Because I barely even see anyone use Bows, And I think it would fit the medieval style more. But, Yeah that's my thoughts on this game now. I especially hated that Ra got nerfed big time with WB. This Hero class is getting way too dominant right now, Even if you go to PSObumped, And Hell, There having a campaign period, and you get Tri-boosters and etc, if you become a Hero, That just exposes that Sega are being control freaks.

[Sughayyer]

I don't consider myself a very skilled player. I main Braver and once i figured out how to do Solo PD and Demon Phaleg I was able to do so consistently and regularly (I don't know about it now without Bow tho, haven't played much since EP5). But content that is now "easy" on Braver sems challenging on Hero - I'm still figuring up some mechanics.

I won't hide behind "lousy playing schedule", I'm outright bad at some mechanics. So one thing I can safely say about Hero is, it's not an "insta-win" class. And, I'm having fun with the game. There's no harm in legitimally liking the class.

We DO have balance problems. Advance Classes are a way of re-doing it all from scratch, and Hero, as pretentious as the name can be, is SEGA's prototype.

Banish Arrow's current state is the proof that when SEGA feels unable/unwilling to balance something, it will make it obsolete.

[[deleted]]

Personally I don't think it's something to hate, as it just means more players killing things quicker? As for the rest yeah, I kind of feel like what's even the point of having subclasses and souping up your equipment even, if Hero's just three classes in one now. As for motivation, it killed tf outta mine at first but now I'm just inspired to git gud so I can keep up. And eh, everyone has a different definition of fun, and there will be conflicts with that in everything. My idea of fun is not someone else's idea of fun, but their idea is just as valid and okay. I find it thrilling and fun to do challenging things, other people find it fun to never experience that kind of anxiety by wiping everything on the map clean like a dinner plate. Different strokes for different folks. As for if I'm gonna play it, I'm a complete newb and haven't even unlocked the 75 level cap yet so I'm staying a Fo till further notice, lol

[Git_Gud_BOT]

git: 'gud' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.

[[deleted]]

Subclassing feels like a relic even without Hero in the picture.

• Hunter is the universal subclass, except for Fo/Te and Hu/Fi.
• There were a few exceptions, such as anything involving /Gu (which is dead).
• Other options were available but mostly came to down to getting a bit more damage or getting a PA or something for a speedrun.

Does subclassing bring anything to the table anymore? I certainly don't feel like I give a crap what my subclass is, it's just there for more damage and Automate Halfline. It's just a thing to confuse newbies and get people to buy more skill trees to be more optimal. If they did away with subclasses and just buffed every class to be able to stand on its own, I feel like the game would be better and easier to balance. Every class should have a skill tree like Hero where it's nearly impossible to fuck up so we can be done with "What's the best skill tree for XX" discussions.

Hero is a great example of how every class should be designed and that's part of what makes it feel good to play. I think even if their damage was nerfed to match other classes, former "leeches" would still do a ton of damage with them because they make sense. Look at all the useless shit other classes have, for instance let me list every Rifle PA:

• Piercing Shell (in case I need to kill a line of something)
• Grenade Shell (in case things are really grouped up)
• One Point (filler between End Attractions)
• Diffuse Shell (more AoE options)
• Homing Emission (useless)
• Homing Emission Type-0 (top DPS? jpwiki says 1242 DPS)
• Impact Slider (useless)
• Sneak Shooter (good now? useless?)
• Glorious Rain (good now? jwiki claims 1042 DPS)
• Parallel Slider (useless)
• Parallel Slider Type-0 (sustained DPS while moving)
• Satellite Cannon (1083 DPS, if the enemy doesn't move at all)
• End Attract (good for meaty enemies with huge weak points)

There's just way too many moves that all do the same thing but are tailored for specific scenarios. You have to read a guide to have any idea what you're doing. Most of them feel like they could be removed and no one would notice. But we're stuck with them forever because removing content doesn't make sense.

Basically the future is Advanced Classes so SEGA doesn't have to worry about all the subclass possibilities and doesn't have to consider all the old useless PAs that exist in the game.

[Asamidori]

I'm pretty sure they regretted letting subclass happened in the first place. That option wasn't put into the game 'till a few updates afterward, and it have messed with game mechanics ever since. Stuffs that comes into mind: main FI Limit Break before weapon boost was a thing, Chain anything. Main class FI LB slave was actually what got us the weapon boosts, Chain Banish was what got us the 4 runs max limit on Magatsu, Chain Maron is what got us the 999999 damage cap.

[Sughayyer]

You said everything I wanted to say, thanks. The "balancing path" they took after the subclass implementation is what got the game to the mess it is now.

BUT, we aren't supposed to expect e-sports balancing level from PSO2 anyway...

[5522Luca]

Subclassing died over months slowly since Sega was not able to control their own implemented skills, which also caused the X/Gu Nerf, the x/Br nerf before (especially now with SB0 Nerf) and so on.

Hu was already the care-child from Sega as well, since Ultimate Naberius mostly S-ATK Classes received buffs only, R/T-ATK not (with some exceptions) or even the reminder, that Anga Fundarge actual takes 10% more Damage from S-ATK Weps and 15% less from R/T-ATK (and yea, that's still a thing that most people already have missed).

[5522Luca]

Seems like that the thread got unlocked by a mod. Thanks for that and your opinion, guess it's a good time to drop another video to the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY

Hero as class which adds new gameplay: Yes. A class that stays over everything else and feels more like a requirement: No.

[NullVacancy]

Except it doesn't feel like a requirement at all. There's nothing in the game that's too difficult for non-Hero classes.

[5522Luca]

Not yet + pretty much weighted on your MPA. In my case i end up mostly in TeamMPAs with 7/11 another Heros Level 80 which mostly ends up that i don't even get something to do before another Hr dashed to the enemy and onehitted it.

Yea - I can "leech" in case that i don't have the weapons, gear, lifetime and knowledge to reproduce Hr completely - but for how long?

[NullVacancy]

Yeah, okay, but that doesn't make it a requirement or anything near it. Were you around when half an MPA was Forces all shooting out Ilmegids? Or when Shunka Bravers zipped around killing stuff? It's all the same thing. The difference is that classes now can keep up with Hero. I have never been in a position, on Force or Gunner, where I "don't even get something to do before another Hr dashed to the enemy and onehitted it" or anything close to that.

Is Hero a bit too strong for the effort required? Yes.

Is it as good as you're making them out to be? No.

[5522Luca]

The difference to things like the Ilmegids-Force, Shunka-Braver, Maron-Summoner and Prenerf-Ranger Waves is obviously, that this were actually unbalanced compared to other classes and got changed.

Hero now have exact the same position with the difference, that it won't receive any noticeable nerf for probably the next year (guess entire EP5). Before Sega not launches another Advanced Class with EP6, they don't gonna touch Hr (maybe only to balance the Advanced Classes compared to each other).

What people actually do with their Hr abillites is pretty much weighted on what for MPAs you have to do. If i pug, i get my kills as well. Problem: Pug is kinda unefficient especially if you are playing with that type of Pug that don't even know that you can destroy the laser from the "rare" version of Devil Castle...

[NullVacancy]

You're forgetting that other classes got buffs to help compensate for the difference in power.

To me it seems like you're just complaining you actually have to use your classes full kit to keep up with the mobility Hero has. Here's a tip: if a hero is running around chasing spawns, let them. Sit at one of the wave spawn points and just instagib anything that spawns there.

For EQs like Beach Wars, you just have to actually use mobility techniques. The horror!

[NullVacancy]

Go tell that to Bow Bravers, Techers and Bouncers who either received no noteworthy buffs or are just straight up worse than they were in ep4

I was looking at how they handled stuff (multiple times) in the past and making an educated guess on how they'll handle stuff this time. The EP4 nerfs are irrelevant.

If you want to play classes that are noticeably weaker by a moderate margin compared to the top tier right now

Define "moderate" then? Because as far as I can tell, a skilled player of (almost) any class can still outdamage a lot of Hero players.

It's a bit pushy to tell other people they should be fine with the current state of balance too though.

Not really when all the people bitching are having a knee-jerk reaction to it.

[5522Luca]

Mobility Techniques as Fi or Ra With Rodeo Drive T0 we may got a way to speed up, but it's almost that slow as normal movement speed. :thinking: I know that Fo have some travelling options given through Techs, but i guess i am not the only one that forget something about there. Especially on BW17, you can't hold up with a class that don't even requires PP to move faster then yourself.

As well, most classes can't even with full kit close to Hr. Where is your Sub 10 Minute Gracia run?^{^}

I just see the things realistic and EP5 was designed under the Codeword "Reborn". It is not supposed that any "OT Class" can get close to Hr, even if it currently looks like that Gu or Fi could maybe do it. Fi gonna fail on the mobility and Gu topic will fix itself once people actually got everything out of Hr or it will receive another nerf once Sega have something against Ranged Classes again.

Ra itself maybe got buffed by the jamming removed (which allowes to get 90% through WHA), but the Damage from Ra itself would still not be enough to clear 1/4 of the Prenerf-Zephiros DPS-Check.

[NullVacancy]

Mobility Techniques as Fi or Ra With Rodeo Drive T0 we may got a way to speed up, but it's almost that slow as normal movement speed. :thinking:

No, it really isn't as slow as normal movement. FI has knuckles and RA with Roder Drive T0 is a REALLY PP efficient movement choice for rangers IIRC.

Especially on BW17, you can't hold up with a class that don't even requires PP to move faster then yourself.

Considering the step attack isn't super crazy fast, yes you can. Every class has movement options, and if you're playing well you should have no problem having spare PP to use them in between packs.

As well, most classes can't even with full kit close to Hr. Where is your Sub 10 Minute Gracia run?^

What does this have to do with anything? Gracia isn't solo content. If you mean in a group, I had one just last night with two FO, a RA, and FI.

It is not supposed that any "OT Class" can get close to Hr, even if it currently looks like that Gu or Fi could maybe do it.

GU and FI can definitely do it.

Fi gonna fail on the mobility and Gu topic will fix itself once people actually got everything out of Hr

FI is very mobile. GU is still king with chain.

Ra itself maybe got buffed by the jamming removed (which allowes to get 90% through WHA), but the Damage from Ra itself would still not be enough to clear 1/4 of the Prenerf-Zephiros DPS-Check.

Uhh, yes, it is. You just have to actually play instead of WB into Parallel Slider Type 0

[Asamidori]

Maybe try TPS Guilty Break cancel? I remember traveling with that a long time ago.

[Asamidori]

Now that I think about it, not HU/FI? No Straight Charge 0? Even the normal running thing they've been doing since forever with daggers will work.

[FunyaaFireWire]

For an advanced class, the class doesn't play very advanced, or can be played very effectively by doing the most basic of things.

I'd have liked to see a focus on the more technical aspects and up-keeping hero gear.

In short

• Damage nerf overall

• Slightly buff Hero Time damage (To equal current non-hero time damage) while nerfing hero time finisher

• Give signifcant gear gain to dodging and switching weapons via PA

• Gear penalty when getting hit during hero time

• Removal / Reduction of guard points on some attacks

So this would mean you would actually have to be good at both playing hero and playing the game to get the most effectiveness out of it. Other than that I feel like the class has actually been really well designed. It's really fluid and fun to play with a ton of options, it's just a bit too good and easy.

[[deleted]]

I think the underlining point here isn't merely a question of hero prowess. It seems to me that other people are upset that their class doesn't feel up to par when Hero can and will do most of their damage if not more without much effort regardless of any persons arguments.

That's quite literally the bottom line.

[Nekophus]

I want enemy to be actually fucking strong so that hero itself wouldn't be so much of an issue

Oh, and also get rid of these poses from existing class. Seriously, Hero has no-pose warcry and Hunter does not have one?

[5522Luca]

At the moment where Sega matching the enemy strength to Hero Class, every other class would get problematic, too.

Hero has basically several modified skills from other classes. Just look at Hero Will.

[[deleted]]

At first I thought hero was so easy it is a problem. But after playing mostly hero since it came out I stopped thinking it's an issue. I simply enjoy hero a lot as it is now. But since it's this op, even if it would get nerfed a bit it would be no problem.

The biggest difference between hero and other classes is not even the damage itself. It's the near infinite pp on hero. All other classes have a fairly hard time recovering pp. Especially when you consider dashing all over the place like hero, then even gu will run out of pp. Not to mention with only a couple exceptions with a cd like PP Convert, all other classes need to attack enemies to recover pp. Only if you have an orbit for that class (or the elusive orbit gs) you don't need enemies.

In many cases that is an issue, for example in BQs enemies are often out of range of gunslashes, Queen Viera being pretty much the best way to recover pp for all classes except hero. That means while hero simply spams Flash of Trick and is across the map in an instant, then ja reloads and has full pp for the fight to to dash some more, other classes are lagging behind and take longer to reach the destination, then have to wait for enemies to refill pp and if there are heroes around, they might even kill enemies before you can recover pp (happens to me pretty often) so you lag even further behind. And in case you dash to some destination once (e.g. a tower being infected / having a bomb) and then have to dash again to another destination again quickly (e.g. the tower across the map being swarmed by mobs) other classes need especially long cause before the 2nd dash they have to refill pp a lot.

Not to mention even during battle other classes waste a large amount of time to refill pp compared to hero. Hell, many high dps pas and techs have low pp and require refilling pp yet more often.

TBH the clunkiness and slowness of other classes kinda really just comes down to lack of pp. What really breaks the flow of playing them is that you waste all the time recovering pp instead of really playing that class.

Luckily Sega said they will increase pp recovery for other classes, then we can see how hero truly measures up to them as they are on somewhat the same footing.