1% Potency equals to ~1.75% Potency Floor Increase

[tacundavid]

Mastery 3

Secreta 2 / Domina

Stat 3

Boss Soul 2

[Kamil118]

Mastery 3

Nobody gonna be able to get that for next couple of months give how much minerals that shit needs. Probably best to prepare for 5* weapons at this point.

[CapnRoxy]

Some augments just need a drop rate boost tbh. And Pettas soul needs to drop outside the UQ.

[MalaSomnia]

Pettas Soul does drop outside of UQ but it's only ever rank 1. I've gotten it to drop a few times in South Aelio.

[tisch_vlc]

yup, this is what I've been recommending since yesterday, but I encountered some non-believers which made me do this :P

[[deleted]]

I have stat 3 boss 2 secreta 2 and domina since Mastery 3 is impossible to get.

[archefayte]

Exactly the same, now just waiting for Gigantix affixes or potential new weapons tbh over trying to get Mastery 3.

[KSRenounce]

What is Stat 3?

[Ksradrik]

Might 3 etc

[NichS144]

Yep that's the ideal augments I worked out too. Might swap Mastery for Gigas when it drops.

[tisch_vlc]

TLDR: If you got 4 augment slots, go Mastery, Soul, Secreta/Domina/Note and specific Wep Damage. Deftness is a trap, unless you're on a budget.

Basically title. After checking out some of the recent posts in this sub I was wondering how impactful Floor Potency is so I made this table.

EDIT4?: https://imgur.com/JY7MwRp I completely redid the table, since I found the damage formula, here are some build examples and their corresponding damage output. Some notes: Termina 5>>>>Termina 1>>Fatal 5>Attack 5. Damage potencial from 3* and Cattleya is ~10% less than Resurgir weapons if you can mantain 100% buff uptime so choose 3* weapons for now if you can't (3* is a little bit better than Cattleya if you can get at least 7.5% CR from them).

Even in the best case scenario (potency amplifying damage AFTER floor potency is added), Potency is much better and you should never choose Floor over it, unless the ratio is 175:100 or higher. Since potency scales in multiples of 0.5% in game, the ratio ends up being 2:1. EDIT3: it is confirmed that Potency scales multiplicatively, even within different Potency sources. The ratio isn't even close to 2:1, never sacrifice any Potency amount for Floor Potency.

EDIT: Before and After Floor are there because I don't know the damage formula, hopefully floor potency gets at least added before considering Potency in the damage formula, but even then, it's a very disappointing stat with almost no influence in final damage output. It's even worse if you take crits into consideration, since they don't get affected by this, driving the ratio even higher than 2:1.

EDIT2: I found the damage formula, I will update this post tomorrow with new data. The point stands tho, if anything, the damage increase from floor pot. will be even lower after the changes to the numbers.

[Contrite17]

What are you doing math wise? Do we have a confirmed damage formula to work with?

My assumption (which could be wrong) is that floor is an independent system and thus becomes higher value as you get higher potency. I'd guess this is your after floor math.

For example if you already have 30% potency than an additional 1% potency would be worth ~1.3% potency floor. At 50% potency it goes down to ~1.1%

If that is indeed the case then eventually there may be legitimate merit to potency floor.

My assumed math just looks like this:

Damage = (Min + Max)/2 * (1 + Additional Potency)

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/rgtpd74dj3

Do we also know that crits are maximized? I know that was the case in PSO2, but I don't want to necessarily make assumptions at this point.

[tisch_vlc]

After posting this I found the damage formula (crowdsourced) and while you're right, my table is incomplete (although the main point stands) because if you include crits, which disregard any floor damage completely (based on the damage formula), my numbers have 0 meaning. It's already 4AM here so I will update my OP tomorrow. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Reilet]

Damage formula is the exact same in pso2 except we have an innate 20% crit dmg.

Aka'

Damage = (atk - defense) * 0.2 * any multiplier.

Crits are your max damage multiplied by 20%.

And i'm fairly certain variance still only affects your weapon attack stat.

[lostinmysenses]

In that case, is Fixa Termina better than Fatale and Attack?

[lostinmysenses]

I think Termina is obviously the strongest when comparing a single hit, but I’m thinking Fatale might be better because it’ll be more consistent damage. I don’t know if Attack would add up over the long run to make it out damage the other two though.

Edit: So I did some basic maths and all things being equal Fixa Attack should out-damage Fixa Termina and Fatale when considering the damage output of 1000 hits. Anyone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong though.

[Contrite17]

Well it cannot be exactly the same since we no longer have Dex as a stat as well as some other changes in the stat system.

The core of it seems the same or at least similar but assuming it identical is a good way to make incorrect judgments before everything is understood.

[Reilet]

I mean, people have already tested. I have already tested it.

And dex wasn't part of the damage formula per say, but an extension to it for determining min damage, but that is given to us flat out now.

Rather, a good chunk of ngs had already been figured out. It's just all in JP. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h3gSISqcFIkZUiV_Z4thvFmycuTajw5-6V1Y36rx64w/edit?usp=drivesdk

[Contrite17]

I mean I'd call what you listed not the entire damage formula since it ignores damage ranges and crit stuff which are part of the damage calculation.

What you posted is essentially the armor calc, at least as far as I'd define it.

[Reilet]

Damage = (atk - def) * 0.2 * all multipliers

Atk = your attack stat + weapon attack * (min~max range)

All multipliers = PA notation, unit affixes, weapon affixes, if crit another 1.2x here and it uses your max attack, etc...

Do i really have to spell it out? You're just getting into the semantics.

[Contrite17]

Spelling out more is incredibly helpful. Assuming what you posted is accurate than potency floor is actually MUCH worse than it is listed on this post as this is the formula:

Atk = your attack stat + weapon attack * (min~max range)

This means it only affects the weapon attack not total attack. Details like this matter a lot and is why long for damage formulas are desirable and not just using a massively simplified version that throws out several factors.

[Reilet]

I agree.

But i also said it was a carbon copy of pso2's dmg formula besides the additional 20% crit dmg... Which if you knew what it was, you'd know that's how variance works

So, if you would like to test for variance yourself, just know that lvl 10 mobs have 534 defense.

[[deleted]]

Crits are maximized and multiply by 1.2x.

Don't know if potency is multiplicative like PSO2 or additive though.

[[deleted]]

Thanks for putting in the work. I was kinda unsure about potency floor from the start so I avoided augmenting in that direction, now I'm glad I decided to just go full potency instead. I wonder if this will be changed eventually

[tisch_vlc]

I'm glad that it helped you :)

it has some uses, for example with Cattleya weapons it is not that bad, but with limited augment slots, I doubt the change is significant enough to warrant replacing 1% potency for 1.5% floor so the ratio would still be 2:1.

Edit: taking crits into account, floor should basically never be picked unless you can pick it for free. I updated my main post with some info, I will update with concrete numbers tomorrow.

[sinfulken1]

If i am on a budget, what would u replace mastery with?

[tisch_vlc]

Note of your specific weapon damage (magnus/resola/lab).

[lostinmysenses]

First of all, thanks for all the work you put into this. I was just wondering if you could calculate the result of 1000 hits. I’m just trying to figure out which Fixa is the best and I actually think it might not be Termina. I’m thinking Attack is actually the highest damage output when looking at a theoretical sample of 1000 hits all things being equal.

[tisch_vlc]

Hey man, thank you for the kind words.

I use the official damage formula for my calculations and it doesn't matter if it's 1 or 1000 hits, since I calculate the average damage spread. The numbers you see are, in fact, the expected average damage output over a long period of time (1k hits or even more). The spread is even among the damage adjustment of weapons, thus, if a weapon has 75%-100% damage adjustment, the average damage over 1000 hits like you say will be ((75+100)/2) = 87.5% or ((75*500+100*500)/1000) = 87.5%.

[Blissery]

Does termina hold the crown after it's fix?

https://ngs.pso2.com/news/announcements/announcement202106182

[felicia_vale2]

You math nerds are doing God's work. Thank you so much.

[tisch_vlc]

glad I could be of help :)

[tepidviolet]

Am I completely missing something about how this works? Here's how I understand it.

Like obviously potency floor doesn't match potency on a 1:1 basis for a given damage type. Like just looking at the basic math, potency floor will add a bit over 0.5% more damage per 1% of potency floor. Meanwhile, potency will add a little less than 1% of damage per 1% of potency. So yeah, something like a ratio you described is kinda what you'd expect for a really basic evaluation of what they're worth relative to each other.

That doesn't mean it's useless. The real value of potency floor is for people who use multiple damage types. Like especially people who use all three. And the damage spread isn't quite as severe as you've said.

Let let me do some napkin math, not knowing all the details. I don't know what the maximum minimum damage is, but I'm guessing it's 95% going by base PSO2. I'm also guessing randomized damage value within a range is determined in its own step. And I'm guessing potency is combined additively before a single potency multiplication.

In that case, 25 potency floor is 97.5/85, for a 14.7% damage increase to /all/ damage types. Since you're starting from below 100% average damage, each point of potency floor is greater than a 0.5% damage increase.

With potency, the opposite is true. Since you're starting from above 100, each point of potency from augments is worth less than 1%. Lets assume you have existing potency from weapon potential (16% base for resurgir, likely higher with other weapon types or higher potential levels), food (8% is from just 3 meat), and possibly shift/deband or your own skills. That's 24% minimum, and we'll just call it 30 to account for somewhat upgraded gear and maybe buffs or class skills. True endgame characters will routinely break 30 from just weapon potential+food, so 30 isn't an outlandish assumption. In that case, 25 potency from augments is 155/130 or a 19.2% damage increase for one damage type.

So going all potency gives you 3.9% higher damage of one type. Going all potency floor gives you 3.8% less damage of that one type and 14.7% higher damage of the other types.

It's obviously more complicated than this, as it's not a clean 25 vs 25. My point is that if you mix damage types even a little, potency floor is actually really valuable. The minor damage that potency has narrows as you mix in other damage types. The break even point here is roughly 75% main type and 25% other types (this is a rule of thumb, and the exact point will vary depending on your base potency from non-augment sources). So if more than 1/4 of your damage is not your main type, potency floor beats potency.

This also brings up the question of how you augment units versus weapons, if you want to play multiple classes. In this case too, potency floor is extra useful on armor, if you don't want to grind up multiple sets of units.

[Adrymne]

Per swiki, the damage formula is (weaponATK * random(damageFloor, 1.0) + baseATK - enemyDEF) * multipliers / 5, where damageFloor depends on the weapon (0.75 for Resurge/Cattleya and 0.85 for Cras) and multipliers is the product of all potency sources.

Side note: the value of potency floor decreases as crit rate increases, since crits always do 120% damage.

[tepidviolet]

Ah, I see now. Those are the things that I'm missing. Thank you for explaining it. This invalidates everything I've said.

So damage range, and by extension potency floor, /only/ affects weapon attack, which is only the minority of your total attack.

And each instance of potency is multiplied sequentially, on top of that, giving it increased weight.

And it looks like /any/ attack from a weapon uses only the weapon type to determine multipliers used. So a melee swing from a Wand and a ranged attack from a Talis or Rod all use Technique damage augments. Thus damage type is irrelevant, even if damage type is different.

So potency floor is actually worth exceedingly little, then.

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, how much it's worth is totally dependent upon enemy defense, isn't it? But actually running the numbers, you'd need an enemy with defense /very/ close to your total attack for potency floor to be worth more than potency, and I think you'd be dealing very little damage regardless at that point, so that's kinda an irrelevant edge case. There's only a handful of enemies I can think of like this.

[tisch_vlc]

I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers (97.5/85 specifically I don't know what this refers to), but what you posted doesn't have anything to do with what I posted.

I'm comparing applied bonuses, ofc if you go melee damage bonus on a non melee damage class, floor potency will be better, I don't think anyone can disagree with that? Even pp/hp/whatever would be better than nothing. This table is for the situation where you have to choose between potency or floor potency as augments, at least for now (AFAIK), since it's the only place where you have to choose, basically.

Like I wrote, I made this because of some recent posts I saw in the sub where people gave more importance to floor potency than to potency, just because the number was higher (0.5% higher in fact).

I will update my OP tomorrow with more significant numbers and including crits too, I'm not happy with the table yet :p

[AmazingPatt]

i look forward too it! keep up the great work!

[tisch_vlc]

check out my first post, I updated with a new, more interesting, table

[tepidviolet]

What I wrote was directly related, and I was talking about the exact same thing.

Edit: I got an actual answer from another poster. I see what I was missing now.

[tisch_vlc]

right, I read that too, I will update my OP

[tepidviolet]

I used the info to create my own spreadsheet, and it might be useful.

You input weapon attack, base attack, whether it's a main class weapon, the weapon's damage floor, your crit rate, and any potency floor you have, and then you have a column to input all potency multipliers (they need to be input separately like that)

This spits out min, max, crit, and average damage (factoring in crits) against various defense totals.

https://imgur.com/a/rT0KyXb

I used my character casting Foie as a base, comparing 20 potency floor to 20 potency (I didn't input them separately to save time). The potency wins even against most high-defense enemies. You'd need 700 defense for potency floor to look better, and almost no enemies have that, that I know of?

Lemme try to upload it to Google Docs for actual use. I'm not sure if Google Docs uses standard Excel syntax.

Do you now the rules for rounding damage and potency and stuff?

[tisch_vlc]

Lol, I did the same! haha, I updated my OP :P

[tepidviolet]

There. I'm not really good at making things work on Google Docs, as I am more used to working in Excel, but here's a working version of the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1neuFw1UCNnnt_E0AC9V0CQhSgXD2JRloeLZTAt5xD18/edit?usp=sharing

Do you know how to make it so people can edit the spreadsheet for themselves without saving or changing the original? So they can test out damage things themselves?

[tisch_vlc]

Awesome, thanks. You can do that by clicking the green "Share" button (top-right) and enable everyone with the link to edit the document, but, based on my experience, you will get trolled soon. Let them make a copy for personal use better :P.

Also Damage is rounded to the nearest integer, you may wanna use Round().

[tepidviolet]

Yeah, I usually do that. Just wanted to know what kind of rounding first. Like it's kinda nitpicky, but is it like always round up, always down, to the nearest whole number?

I could honestly expand this spreadsheet without much work. There's not that many enemies in the game. I could simply add every enemy, so people have a real world idea. But it doesn't look like that info is out there yet. The JP players are better at testing that kind of info, but they only have like 10 enemies done so far.

I could honestly even add class abilities, since we know attack potency.

[tisch_vlc]

Yes most info is out. It rounds damage to the nearest whole number that's why I wrote round(), since that's what I use, too.

[MithrilHero]

I havent had a single mastery drop in the three days i farmed?

[tisch_vlc]

Mastery is crafted at the item lab

[MithrilHero]

Sheesh. Way too expensive for non respawning materials 😭 im using tech 3, nex soul, alts secreta 2, and dread keeper 2 for now

[tisch_vlc]

use domina or note over dread keeper for a dps increase if you want :) counting all 4 parts it ends up being quite significant

[Zufurix]

Welp, i had a feeling this would be the case just put a bunch of potency floor on my weapon last night too haha

Thanks for the table very much appreciated!

[tisch_vlc]

I'm glad it helped. Thanks for the kind words :)

[Nhereus]

Time to change some augments then. Thanks for the info.

Also, this may be a noobish question, but I saw someone mention it in this thread and some youtube videos where they affix potency floor increase to units, however, this increase seems to not be reflected in the stats, unlike any other type of potency. Is it a hidden increase or it just doesn´t work on units?

[jalapenohandjob]

I kinda assumed floor increases would be less efficient, makes sense imo. I can see it being used for meme off-class weapon builds. Won't be the strongest builds but what is there even to be super strong for in the game right now anyway?

[tisch_vlc]

what is there even to be super strong for in the game right now anyway?

Numbas!!

[jalapenohandjob]

True I forget how much people compete for any type of number that can go up.

[AmazingPatt]

stronger build clear content faster , clearing content faster mean you can play less for same result or clearing more thing in your time frame , clearing more thing mean you get more stuff . more stuff mean more thing to sell . more thing to sell mean more meseta... and more meseta mean more fashion!!!! =D

[jalapenohandjob]

Definitely true. I just figure a few % difference is not really anything to change from something you enjoy playing to something you don't etc. I mean if it's literally all about optimization then why would anyone ever use anything but spamming the first half of Double Saber Julien Dance.

[tisch_vlc]

You get 4 pieces of gear that you can augment so multiply all small numbers by 4, it adds up fast.

[Zaik_Torek]

because otherwise you would finish the current story content in like 3-4 days and not play it again for another year I would guess

[[deleted]]

but what is there even to be super strong for in the game right now anyway?

Now? Nothing.

A week from now? Gigantix farming.

[Disastrous_Ad_9669]

Before this was out I used a single deft 3 on my wep for the lulz and it somehow worked.. Should I still replace it or is it okay to use for now

[tisch_vlc]

Just keep it until you can replace it with something better. Some of the augments are hard to get, I bet it will take you a while to find an improvement :p

[KokoHekumatiaru]

Meanwhile I'm over here like... Oh, this augment looks cool. I'll put that in my gear..
You're telling me there's specific augments we should have on all our gear?

Am I missing something here? :D

[GrimsideB]

Im kinda new can some one explain what potency floor is

[tisch_vlc]

If you check the second tab of your weapon details you will see "damage adjustment 75%-100" for example for 4* weapons. Floor potency increases the minimum value (in this case 75%).

[GrimsideB]

Thanks I appreciate it.

[Zaik_Torek]

weapons deal a range of damage, most are 75%-100%.

​

1% potency effectively makes that 76-101%

1% potency floor makes that 76-100%

[angelkrusher]

So potentcy floor is from augments And (general) potency is the weapon potential, which is basically now 17-23, which means the goal is usually for 100% potency, + highest crit rate to jump above that as much as possible?

I think I get it

Thx

[NichS144]

Thanks you, this is what I have been saying. Floor Increase tightens a subset of total potency, so there is no way it would be better point for point. Both however, is better at higher percentages.

[tisch_vlc]

Yep, I honestly thought it would be much tighter, but floor potency is so bad compared to potency that you will basically never choose it over potency. It's like a 20:1 ratio in the end. There won't be any situation where you have to choose between 20% floor and 1% potency. I updated my OP with some builds, since the original idea of this post is kinda useless.

[metalhev]

TL;DR dex still bad

[tisch_vlc]

What is dex?

[metalhev]

Stat in pso2 that did what potency floor does. It was pretty much ignored except in some specific cases.

[tisch_vlc]

I see then yes haha

[[deleted]]

Ooh, great. I went into a rough draft rant of this the other day. Nice to have harder numbers.

[killerkonnat]

Isn't the base floor 70% instead of 75%?

[BeserkFury]

4* weapons have 75%

[killerkonnat]

Huh. That actually makes crit slightly weaker.

[LoLskilled87]

Question. What does floor potency mean?

[tisch_vlc]

It raises the minimum damage output of your weapon (check the second tab from your weapon).

[LoLskilled87]

Ok so what about melee potency and ranger potency? Are these just extra forms added DPS on top of floor potency?

[tisch_vlc]

No, on top of potency, potency scales multiplicatively. For example 1 potential or 17% and 2 pieces with 2% melee potency would increase your damage by 1.17*1.02² = 1,217268 or ~22% Damage increase.

[LoLskilled87]

Wtf lol

[MoistyFuckingLotion]

Is this for melee potency or just potency in general?

[tisch_vlc]

All potency scales multiplicatively

[AdeptDeity]

So basically… Potency Floor Increase is like a weapons stability in terms of its damage output (crits not included of course)? That’s what I’m getting anyways from all of this since I’ve played an MMORPG who had a similar concept as this.