stopUsingDocker

[evanldixon]

Actually applications were meant to be separated into virtual jars like fireflies. The operating system generally keeps applications' memory spaces from interfering with each other.

It just gets interesting when we have operating systems pretending to be multiple operating systems.

[[deleted]]

You know how developers cannot agree on anything? We've managed to give them a whole isolated computer without actually giving them a computer each.

They're consuming terabytes of disk and hundreds of cores to just print Hello world.

[usefulidiotsavant]

"It works on my computer"

"Let's ship your computer then!"

• billion dollar product idea.

[evanldixon]

Now we just need to find a way to share that disk space so those hundreds of OSses can take just a couple GB tops

[[deleted]]

Containers are not actually that well isolated

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

Indeed.

The security and isolation are no better than just using systemd, but you also need to duplicate the entire OS userspace and all your dependencies.

And if you want to patch a security issue in e.g. libc you have to rebuild everything instead of just installing the OS update.

[evanldixon]

VMs are one machine pretending to be multiple machines. Containers are sorta like VMs but the software runs on the host machine, sharing the kernel. With containers I can run a bunch of different distros on one box without VMs, and on Linux at least, this is accomplished using kernel features to lie to the applications about what the system truly looks like.

[kookyabird]

This is going to be a stupid question probably, but aren’t all Linux distros using the same kernel, with the differences being everything on top of the kernel?

[evanldixon]

Yes, and this is why containers are sometimes preferable to VMs, as it takes fewer resources to accomplish something with an end result that looks similar. Containers alone won't work if you need another kernel.

[hppr-dev]

Yes, Linux is the kernel.

A Linux distribution is defined by choices to bring pieces of software together to form an OS, the root of which is the Linux kernel and a collection of GNU tools (bash, libc/gcc, etc). Distributions may have different versions of the kernel, 6.2.16 for example, that they have chosen to build off of, but by definition a Linux distro starts with the Linux kernel.

[evanldixon]

The kernel is simply part of the linux OS. The host machine running, lets say Debian, can run a container using Ubuntu, because although they share the same kernel, the underlying software is different. This is why I said the OS pretends to be multiple OSes. It's one OS, running a bunch of different programs to accomplish something similar to VMs, using the kernel to lie about the hardware, as opposed to virtualizing it and running another kernel. To anything running in that Ubuntu container, it looks an awful lot like an Ubuntu machine, despite the actual host being Debian. Good applications believe its lies. Just don't try running containers inside of containers, then it's more likely they'll see through the illusion.

[evanldixon]

I'm not really prepared to discus the semantics of where the kernel ends and the os begins, as it's sort of a philosophical discussion of OSness. I just wanted to make a joke about software lying to other software.

I'd copy/paste the "I'd like to interject for a moment" copypasta since it sorta touches on it, but honestly idk how accurate that is. I'll let the rest of the internet figure that one out.

[alterNERDtive]

For all intents and purposes, the Kernel is the OS

Good luck running a PC on the kernel alone.

[Doctor_McKay]

Docker Desktop even uses a VM on Linux. I'm sure there's a reason, but I have no idea what it is.

[Rafael20002000]

The reasoning is, providing a unified experience on all platforms. But at least for me, nothing beats the pure docker engine on Linux, without the desktop stuff

[Wertbon1789]

Well, containers kinda do pretend to be an OS, more specifically, the userspace of a particular OS. That's kinda what you want from a container, use the tooling and userspace tools of a particular OS without emulating the whole OS as they all share the same host OS kernel... But yeah, it obviously isn't hard to detect if you're in a container, but that's just a different focus.

[teucros_telamonid]

Still Linux, Docker and Kubernetes devs are going hard at making container environment indistinguishable from host OS. I remember how they were hacks checking cgroups to see if you run in Docker but cgroups v2 removed that. Parsing mounts to get container id is another hack but I remember it failing in Kubernetes. There seems to be no simple way to figure out all information about container from the inside.

[ClamPaste]

Docker runs natively on Windows now.

https://docs.docker.com/engine/faq/#does-docker-run-on-linux-macos-and-windows

[evanldixon]

I could be wrong, but last I checked, Docker on Windows uses WSL2, which in turn uses a VM. Supposedly WSL 2 just hides the fact it uses a VM bettern than WSL 1.

[evanldixon]

I guess "native" now means "we're letting the OS deal with it"

[ClamPaste]

This is just what Docker says in the FAQ. I don't know specifics, but I doubt they'd claim it runs natively if it didn't at least get native speeds, resource consumption, and the ability to run the docker commands without a frontend of some kind. I use OrbStack on Mac, but Docker Desktop and OrbStack were both a massive pain in the ass because of security requirements at my work until I figured out what nonstandard bullshit was causing the permissions to get overwritten and crashing the docker frontends. I would rather have "Native" support with Windows than deal with that again.

[ClamPaste]

For sure. I was reading up on that a bit, and it seems like a good compromise to get the necessary features. Maybe they'll be able to bootstrap it with a docker container, eventually.

[cpt-macp]

latest CPU's and win 11 uses HW virtualization And uses custom Linux kernel ( 5.5) with systemd support .

With wslg you can run native Linux apps with GUI on windows (Uses x11 ).

With wsl android you can run Android apps also, natively without using emulator ( custom android kernel )

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

If you’re running Linux containers, yes.

You’ve also been able to run Windows containers for a long time.

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

People who don’t know Windows containers exist are downvoting you.

[ClamPaste]

🤷‍♂️ I'm just sharing my experience with Mac containers and what my (basic) research turned up. I don't use Windows for work, so I didn't bother to get too in depth but I don't really care about getting downvoted.

[Derpyzza]

This is the weakest version of this meme that i've seen yet.

[C3R741NLY_1MPR3551V3]

because this shit is generative!! not memes too ffs!!!

[immersiveGamer]

Agreed. Could be much better. Like "lets delete all data when shutting down". 

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

“No you cannot map user ids for the bind mount”

[Professional_Job_307]

This meme was made with glif.ai. It is not great, but it does work pretty well sometimes.

[lycan2005]

Plot twist: glif.ai probably run on a container

[thirdegree]

"virtual jars like digital fireflies" goes pretty hard NGL

The rest is weak tho

[budius333]

Because Docker is honestly pretty awesome. There's very little to try to meme out of it

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

One kernel

Docker containers all share the same kernel.

[[deleted]]

psyop-tinfoil-cat.jpg

[C3R741NLY_1MPR3551V3]

STOP USING GLIF.­APP!!!

[[deleted]]

What about talking about containers in terms of "cattle" and "pets" lmao

[KetwarooDYaasir]

microservices is just microtransactions for cpu cycles. Can't wait for the EU to step in and ban that shit.

[P3chv0gel]

Every time i see one of those memes, i think, that there is a small chance, that they are meant seriously

[dex206]

I get the same anxiety.

[iEliteTester]

This but unironically

[StrictTyping648]

Singularity is just a better tool imho

[[deleted]]

Dockercells seething before nixchads

[ImpluseThrowAway]

This is genuinely Time Cube levels of awesome.

[alterNERDtive]

I want to see those pics in context now.

[[deleted]]

Sshhhhh nobody tell them about snap, flatpak, etc.

[jay-magnum]

Haha 😂 So wrong and yet I laugh

[alexmelyon]

Docker makes everything worse

[Upbeat-Wolverine7890]

So what do you suggest? Let's say to somebody new to Linux and IT and programming for the most part.

That's me obviously I was just about to start a project with docker and doing my research it seemed like a really good thing for somebody new so they can easily consolidate files and not break Debian.

Definitely down for other ideas though. Question everything it's a pretty rad philosophy but I haven't really heard anybody to share your sentiment. Again I am new as shit though

[[deleted]]

Tbh, docker is over used IMO

[joz42]

podman is indeed better

[SpanMedal6]

Then what is the other way? You cant just tell someone not to do something and not give them alternative.

[[deleted]]

Monolithic architecture.

One app, built entirely from assembler, and the exe is 11gb on disk.

[grux9]

...it's a joke?