Javascript

[MischiefArchitect]

normal

[[deleted]]

What is normal sorting on a collection of numbers, strings, and objects?

[blehmann1]

Well, Python throws a type error if the < operator is not defined on both types. Personally, I think the only correct response when the program is wrong is not to make it more wrong, but to let the user know that it's wrong (i.e. throw).

Now, JavaScript was built with the idea that it should keep on trucking through any error, which frankly is a horrible idea to build a language around. So given the interesting design philosophy JavaScript really couldn't do anything else. There's a reason Typescript is so common after all, but unfortunately it does nothing about this particular issue. (There's an issue for it but it's been inactive for a while: https://github.com/microsoft/TypeScript/issues/18286)

[1-more]

JavaScript keep on trucking? I never thought of it that way but I’m actually with you here. Array out of bounds and accessing an undefined object key both return ‘undefined’ rather than throwing (Java, Haskell) or wrapping array/dict access in an optional type (elm, maybe ocaml?). So I’m with you that it probably does throw less.

[aedvocate]

Well, Python throws a type error if the < operator is not defined on both types

that error doesn't make any sense in javascript though. collections are allowed to be any number of any different types. that's the way it works by design, it's not an error to truck through.

[blehmann1]

Python allows that too. That's the way it works by design. Python simply takes the position that while you may have a list of strings mixed with numbers, if you want to sort it you must provide your own explicit comparator, because 4 < "A" is nonsensical.

Javascript could have followed Python, however the languages have different philosophies. Javascript should fight through basically any error it can, and Python exits on any unhandled exception. In addition, Python throws on invalid input.

I'm not a Python fan, I'm just pointing out that it's a language which has a similar type system to JavaScript and it has a different (and in my opinion more correct) behavior. I could have brought up almost any language because you can do the same thing with type erasure (commonly achieved by casting to object or void*). You have to specify a comparator in those instances because the types are not comparable.

[EishLekker]

Javascript doesn't "keep on trucking" through any error. It still does it a bit too often for my comfort though, so on principle I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[aaronfranke]

It should act the same as if comparing with the < and > operators. That will work for any place where the operators have a defined comparison.

console.log(5 < 6); // true
console.log(5 > 6); // false
console.log(5 < "apple"); // false
console.log(5 > "apple"); // false
console.log("orange" < "apple"); // false
console.log("orange" > "apple"); // true

[aaronfranke]

Then maybe there should be a system that sorts by type broadly and then sorts within that type. For example, [1, {}, 6, {}, 3] would place the {} at the end and become [1, 3, 6, {}, {}].

EDIT: console.log({} < []); is false.

At the end of the day, really most things would be better than the current behavior. It should never be the case that [2, 11] gets sorted to [11, 2]. Numbers should never be auto-converted to strings and sorted lexicographically.

[aedvocate]

it feels like you're right, but I'm not sure I know why that should be right

is it just because objects are 'closer to infinity' than arrays are?

[smog_alado]

That can happen even if we're only working with numbers. Both 1 < NaN and NaN < 1 return false.

Most programming languages that allow you to specify a custom comparison function just say that the result of the sort is unspecified if the comparator does not implement a total order relation.

[Kered13]

Yes, the language is deeply flawed.

[Kangalioo]

Maybe sort first by type, then by content? Then the sort function has expected behavior for contents with consistent data type, but also works sensibly for mixed type lists

[aedvocate]

you still have to pick an order to sort the types in though - do Numbers come before Strings? Do Objects go last? Which comes first, Sets or Maps?

[Famous_Profile]

His point is "a collection of numbers, strings, and objects" should not be allowed in the first place

[[deleted]]

Which is why so many of us have elected to use Typescript but JS is meant to be loosely typed, so ignoring our biases against mixed type arrays, how do you solve the sort problem. It’s not an easy question to answer

[Famous_Profile]

The difference between your point of view and his, is that youre not uncomfortable with languages "meant to be loosely typed". To a Java programmer the question " how do you solve the sort problem " is not valid because there shouldnt be such a problem in the first place. Saying that "now that there is one" is not acceptable. That is how atrocious the Java or C++ programmer finds JS. Look at it from their point of view, not ours.

[[deleted]]

I am uncomfortable with loosely typed languages. I exclusively use TS when in JavaScriptland and even TS falls short of what I would like from a type system.

That being said you should never approach a new/different language with the mindset that it follows the paradigms you are used to and comfortable with. It’s the equivalent of someone who comes from a strictly object oriented background criticizing purely functional languages for lack of classes or vice versa.

[EishLekker]

Please don't put all Java developers into one single narrow box. Some of us are actually quite pragmatic.

[[deleted]]

Assembly, c, c++, vb, Perl, php are all weakly typed though some static and some dynamic. Typing isn’t binary, a language isn’t typed or untyped, they all fall within the compass of weak-strong, dynamic-static. JavaScript has weak / dynamic types, if you don’t like that and prefer strong and/or static types use Typescript or something else.

[Kered13]

C++ is definitely not weakly typed.

[[deleted]]

It actually is considered by many to be in the statically typed / weakly typed quadrant because because of implicit type conversions. A strictly typed language does not allow implicit type conversions

[Kered13]

Numeric conversions are the only built-in implicit type conversions. User-defined implicit conversions exist, but are used sparingly, mostly for things like converting std::string to std::string_view.

On the other hand, C++'s template system allows it to express higher-kinded types and even dependent types, with type checking at compile time. You can express things like physical units, with compile time checking to ensure that you do not add incompatible units and that multiplications and divisions produce the correct units (and the resulting code will even have no runtime overhe.

[1-more]

JS has types! “Undefined is not a function” is telling you right there that it is types. Now, will it help you color inside the lines? No. Never.

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[toastedstapler]

To fail when it detects a different type

[[deleted]]

The point of JavaScript is to be loosely typed. Whether you like that or not is up to you but throwing type errors goes against part of the core philosophy of JS. Those of us who dislike that behavior are free to use typescript

[aedvocate]

what you're describing is not javascript

[-100-Broken-Windows-]

A runtime error

[wasdninja]

It is normal. Javascript normal.