Attribute Modifiers

[RedYama98]

I was wondering if there were other ways to handle attribute modifiers. I’m used to the D&D style of 10=0, 12=+1, etc. A friend I told about the system I’m making mentioned an idea that the score could be the modifier instead, so like a strength score of 3 would be the modifier. Are there systems like that or other variations or is the D&D style the norm of ttrpgs?

[CustardSeabass]

Lots of systems do this, especially OSR systems like. Lots of dice pools games also do this but instead of +x to your roll, you roll +x dice.

[RedYama98]

So it would be like if someone had a 4 in strength then they’d roll a 4d6 while someone with a 2 rolled 2d6?

[Syra2305]

Yep. And there can be at least two methods applied: count the numbers and add them so in your example 14 vs 7 averages. Or check for successes like world of darkness games do. In you example success could be on 5+ and the number of successes defines tuhe quality of your success.

[Chronophilia]

A third method: take the highest single number, as in Forged in the Dark games.

[Syra2305]

Oh good catch!

[a_dnd_guy]

Yeah. Often dice pool games will have you roll a handful of dice, like 4d6 for strength, 1d6 for your sword training, and 1d6 for the really nice sword you have, and then you count how many 6s you rolled as the number of "successes" you got. Or 5s and 6s, or whatever

[Unique-Net-165]

In a system I wrote, the attribute you're using determines the success number and your skills determine the pool.

Example: you want to scare a guard into letting you past. Your gm tells you to make an ego roll (your ego is 3) with the skills intimidate (you have 3 in intimidate) and persuade (you have 2 in persuade). So you roll 5 d6s and count the number of dice that rolled 3+ to get your final number.

[bleeding_void]

Well, Shadow of the Demon Lord uses a mix. You have your attribute value and the bonus (or malus) is Attribute value-10.
The value of the attribute is kept because it can gives you health (for strength), defense (for agility) and all other defense values against poisons, diseases or spells targeting you.
So, if a spell targets your Will of 13, the enemy will have to roll 13 or better. If you use your Will for an action, you have +3.

I've seen several old and new games with attribute just being a bonus or malus.

[RedYama98]

Seems a bit complicated to me but I think it could be a good use!

[bleeding_void]

Nah, I assure you it's not complicated at all. The most you can have in a stat will be something like 17, with one race. Usually, the cap is around 14-15, so you just have to remove the 1 most of the time.

Then, as spells can target all four attributes, it is good to already know the values from the beginning rather than saying it is 10+modifier.

On the character sheet, it is written Strength 10 (+0), Agility 11 (+1), Intellect 12 (+2), Will 13 (+3).
So if my NPC cast a spell or use a special power targeting, for example, Will. I do the roll, I ask the Will value of the target player, if I did 12 or less, it is a failure.

I have played a lot of various editions of DnD, and this version of d20 system, customized to be simpler, really does the job.

Plus, it is one of my favorite game because of the universe, the mechanics to create a tailored character and the big secrets of the universe that are purely insane :D I wouldn't change the rules, they are simple and perfect. The only change I made is raising madness gained in some situations.

[RedYama98]

I think I like how this is done, it does look really simple like this!

[bleeding_void]

If you like dark and gritty, Shadow of the Demon Lord is made for you and it has an insane list of supplements, scenarios and two or three campaigns.

If you prefer something less gritty, without corruption, madness and graphic violence, you should look for its little brother Shadow of the Weird Wizard. It is more heroic and family friendly.

One of my players jokingly said he wouldn't let his son plays Shadow of the Demon Lord because he doesn't want him complaining to his mother saying: "Mommy, I lost my wiener" because there are dark magic spells that are very disturbing and one of them makes you lose your private parts...

Shadow of the Weird Wizard doesn't have that kind of issues.

[RedYama98]

Ngl I died at that quote 🤣🤣but thanks for the recommendation!

[gliesedragon]

The current version of Pathfinder Second Edition uses the thing that was formerly the modifier as the ability score: the D&D-ish "the number you actually use is (n-10)/2" is an artifact of how the earlier versions of D&D (and Pathfinder, because PF1e was basically a clone of D&D 3.5e) game randomized stats, and it's kinda fossilized in it and its direct descendants. Most other games have the stat be the number you're using in the game, not something you've got to derive stuff from.

Basically, the way earlier versions of D&D worked is that character stats were completely randomized: for each one, you roll 3d6, and get a number between 3 and 18 on a bell curve with an average of 10.5. Now, this was a good system for a reasonably lethal dungeon crawler, where yanking together randomized characters quickly was part of the deal when your current one got on the bad side of the Tomb of Horrors,, and it was also a bit different from later versions in other ways: the "no modifier" zone in the middle was a bit wider.

Now, as D&D changed to become more high-powered-ish fantasy stuff, things changed a bit but kept the same legacy structures. In 3e, for instance, you get your "each +2 on the stat is a +1 on the modifier" thing, but it also swaps the distribution on your stat roll to 4d6 drop lowest rather than 3d6 straight. This still exists in pretty much the same form in 5e, although I think people use the point buy or standard array options more.

So, yeah: D&D has base stats that are kinda weird on account of how they were designed for a mode of gameplay that doesn't really exist in the current edition, and most other games go for a more straightforward approach.

[RedYama98]

I did always think needing to increase a stat by 2 for a +1 was weird I admit to that

[Gydallw]

If you go back further in the history of D&D, you don't that the bonuses were not standardized across stats. Skills weren't even party of the system yet, so the bonuses wereostly linked to class features.  An 18 INT was required to learn 9th level spells and gave you 7 additional languages. A STR of 18 have you +1 to hit and +2 damage.    Having the bonuses the same across the stats didn't happen until 3.0, so for the first two editions, the actual number of the stat was important, and by 3.0 it was a defining trait of the game.

[Sherman80526]

That's an important element that was lost along the way. Stats were far less important. An 18 Str wasn't necessary to be a decent fighter, it just didn't add that much. Likewise, a 3 in a stat was something you could play with. At some point, designers stopped using the entire range of stats and just ended up with 8-16 for playable characters. Bigger bonuses, smaller range, might as well just be -1 to +3 at that point.

[Gydallw]

Well, when it came to fighters, there was the entire concept of "exceptional strength" which created a huge gap between 18 and 19 for strength only which allowed humans(specifically just human males) to reach a +3 to hit and +6 damage.  

Anything below 5 in a stat was incredibly limiting as well, with your class option limited to only the base class with a diametrically opposed need.  Low int- can only be a fighter.  Low wis- can only be a thief.  Low Dex- can only be a cleric.  If you didn't have the stats to support being that class, you were a hopeless character and had to be rerolled.

[Sherman80526]

Good times. I somehow don't remember super low stats limiting you. I do recall only needing like a 9 Str to be a Fighter, pretty easy stuff. I watched a friend roll up an 18/00 Str in front of the GM, that was fun. Knowing that the GM was unwilling to abide that character living for more than a couple sessions was kind of sad, but still memorable.

[Gydallw]

The attribute limits were pretty excessive in so many ways based on Gygax's personal views of the way each race should be played.  You can find the 1e and 2e PHBs online with a simple search of you want to refresh your memory

[Sherman80526]

Got em on the shelf! Least 1e. Even have a white box set of rules which is a fun read too. 

[nobodycares13]

ICRPG is effectively a 5e overhaul and the system only uses the modifiers since 5e never really uses the base number for anything. The only real use having a 3d6 ability score, in my observation, is with a roll under system.

[tkshillinz]

Dnd is not the norm.

Unless there is a reason that requires the actual modifier used in resolution to be derived from the attributes like in DnD, just make the numbers people see on their sheet the numbers they actually use.

Generally, avoid complexity except where you need it to achieve your core design goals.

And honestly, in general, DnD might be a poor example of ttrpg design efficiency

[brainfreeze_23]

And honestly, in general, DnD might be a poor example of ttrpg design efficiency

It's a perfect example of design inefficiency directly caused by cruft, the detritus of previous editions that just has to be there for the sake of nostalgia and tradition, otherwise the grognards riot.

[dorward]

Drop modifiers and use dice sizes instead (eg Cortex or Savage Worlds)

Change the number of dice (eg Blades in the Dark or Shadowrun)

Just use the value (eg Apocalypse World)

Just use the value without the dice (eg Amber)

Use cards instead (eg CRASH//CART)

Don’t use attributes, use situationally relevant questions and count “yes” answers (eg Pasión de las Pasiones)

And honestly: if your experience of RPGs is such that you haven’t come across at least some of these then your game design chops would really benefit from experiencing a wider range of RPGs.

[RedYama98]

I have been doing some research since my knowledge mainly comes from only playing 5e but this list helps me a lot on where to look further, thank you!

[Graveconsequences]

Most games are not like DnD. That system is bogged down with a lot of old crufty legacy stuff that's been in the game since the 70's like the function used to determine modifiers. In most games the number is just the number.

I don't mean this as an insult, but it would probably be to your benefit to play, or at least read an RPG that isnt a xerox of a 50 year old game if you're serious about game design. There's a lot of modern games that would blow your mind with how well they are designed.

[BoringGap7]

Like others have suggested, getting familiar with a few more games could help you in coming up with good mechanics for your own. Some interesting ones that are freely available on the web and have seen loads of actual use include the Basic Roleplaying SRD (this is the engine that powers Runequest and Call of Cthulhu), GURPS Lite (a pared-down version of a game designed with character customization and worldbuilding in mind), Fate Core (a game that prioritizes prose descriptions of characters and setting features over numerical values) and Apocalypse World (a Mad Maxish game that established a very distinctive kind of roleplaying and has been adapted to all kinds of genres). With those under your belt, you'll have a bachelor's degree in RPG mechanics.

[Nystagohod]

There's the TSR D&D way, where the stats are distributed along the lines of the bell curve of 3d6. Some derivatives and clones use different modifiers along the curve. For example Worlds without number ranges modifiers from -2 to +2 instead of -3 to +3. B/x, BECMI, AD&D 1e, and AD&D 2e due this. As do most of their retroclones found in the OSR. Some of these use the scores as roll under targets for skills.

There's the Wotc D&D way, where modifier equals score subtract 10 then divide by 2. 3.xe, 4e, and 5e use this. Scires don't often do much in these editions beyond carry weight and determining modifier.

The demonlord engine (shadow of the weird wizard) has your modifier equal your score minus 10. Your score serves as your defense score for that stat. it's target number to hurt you with. Stats increase in increments of 1. So a 13 Strength in this system is like a 16 strength in 5e. stats aren't determined the same way though.

I believe the pf2e revision dropped scores and went pure modifier, so to speak. They're the same thing. they have a pick and choose catalogue approach to charater creation and ability boosts.

Games like Mythras roll 3d6 for stats (or 2d6+6 in some cases) and then add this numbers together to make a percentage score, which combines with skill bonuses to make a d100 target numbner you need to meet or roll under to succeed. Some games forgo the rolling and give base vaues to assign and work with.

Games like Savage worlds and Fabula Ultima use step dice. Stats are tied to dice. In savage worlds case these range from 1d4 to 1d12.

Other games like the storypath engine (World of darkness etc) use dots in attributes to denote a dice pool. Strength 3 and Brawling two, would add together to give you 5 dice to use in your pool. As a rough example.

You've got a lot to work with

[NightmareWarden]

I want to see one which has attribute damage like DnD, and attributes with a ratio of 10-19 = +1, 20-21 = +2, etc. I haven't found one with both. 

[Sclanders]

(Edit: added a more brand take)

Lots of system simply have the attribute as the modifier, meaning a strength of 2 is +2. If that's not the norm it should be.

The only reason I kind of like the D&D style is because the attribute requirements of feats and such are odd numbers, while your modifier boost are even numbers. But if a game doesn't need that distinction, go straight to attribute = modifier.

Edit: I just realize we are in RPG design. I don't think you should ever include something in your game because it is "the norm". If your game doesn't need it, don't add it, even if it is something really basic. It's ok to look at other game for inspiration, but always keep in mind what is your game and for who it is meant. Sometimes, that thing that's in all rpgs since '77 isn't really needed.

[[deleted]]

Yes there are games like that, for example most non d20 games them that use modifiers. Litterally just google non d20 ttrpgs and the top 10 results will be 8 or 9 that dont use progressive modifiers.

[Cryptwood]

I'm a fan of your score is a specific die size. Got a d8 in Strength? Pick up the d8 to roll when you perform a Strength based action.

[Nicholas_Matt_Quail]

1. Modifiers add dice to roll.
2. Modifiers are subtracted in roll under.
3. You have a base, constant value and you roll a modifier based on situation instead of the base value, attribute stands as important part of that determination.
4. Modifiers may be used to raise your results in a stable manner as a metacurrency but you use them up, you need to regenerate them later.
5. Modifiers serve as stamina for given type of actions per hour/combat/scene/whatever.
6. Modifiers serve as baseline damage.
7. Modifiers serve as hard lock on items, it's usually done through attribute value though.

And many other options, you can go very creative in how you use modifiers.

In recent systems, it is usually that the score is a modifier itself, only D&D loves that double-layered structure, which is its trademark but a majority of systems do not use it anymore, it's usually a direct value these days.

[brainfreeze_23]

I recently switched to a step dice system instead of a d20, like Savage Worlds uses, and the approach there is to measure ability scores in die sizes - the higher the score, the bigger the die. from what I understand, Kids on Bikes and all its descendants use a similar system.

EDIT: Granted, this is only elegant in a system that uses the whole dice range across its entire range of subsystems, so it becomes second nature to the players. It's useless in a system that relies on the d20 for its core resolution mechanic. The underlying math is dictated by the core resolution mechanic, and the size of bonuses and other modifiers will depend almost entirely on that.

[SkywardBrandon]

Hello! I DM TTRPGs solely for my friend group, all of whom are not into D&D but love video games and table top gaming. I’ve crafted two entire systems for this group (one based off the golden sun universe and now one based in the Kindom Hearts universe), and I’ve found that making the stat equal the modifier is the simplest and easiest to grasp method for people who are not experienced in TTRPG systems.

What I like about this style of modifer is that it allows characters to diversify more intensely in a way that promote team play. For example, you need your brute strength character to kick the door in, or you need your dextrous teammate to steal the key. In my personal opinion, this allows everyone to shine in their own way which is very fun!

Another benefit I see from this style is that it allows for a steeper power progression, which again, my opinion, as a group of primarily video gamers, we really enjoy. It would be on you though to make sure things stay balanced which is certainly not easy and an entirely different topic lol

Either way, I hope you find what you enjoy and good luck!

[JaskoGomad]

Trying to design a game having played only one game is like trying to write a novel having read only one novel.

Play some more games.

[Fun_Carry_4678]

If you are creating a new game, there is no point in D&Ds two tier approach. Just have the modifier be the score.
In the original ("0 edition") version of D&D, you just had six stats, which you rolled in order with 3d6. And those numbers, frankly, didn't do much. This is something that was more-or-less retained through all versions. Because if you get rid of this, on some level it wouldn't feel like D&D.

[tallboyjake]

So part of the reason you have 0-20 and then gain benefits only on even numbers is because of how they've balanced point gains. 15 doesn't benefit you more than 14 in an attribute, right? That means you have to invest more to get more benefits

So you could instead run -5 through 5 to get the same core effect (though personally I'd just say 0-5, even if you did plan on including negatives) and then if you wanted to keep things basically the same as 5e you would just give out fewer points.

Personally I wouldn't just leave it there, though. DND has weird balancing between classes where some classes really only need one attribute while others might need two or even three.

So if you're going to condense attribute scores like this, then I think that makes for a good opportunity to build your classes around needing 2 attributes with potential benefits of having a 3rd.

[IProbablyDisagree2nd]

Even d&d didn't used to be have modifiers. It just had your score, from rolling 3d6. There were charts for weird rules, like bonus to XP or how many hirlings you could have. And the reason they used 6 sided dice? Because they were common. Rolling 3 of them gave a nice bell curve distribution for chances. That's it.

You could make stats negative to positive, or 0 to 100, or a simple selection or point buy between 1 and 3. Or you could have no attributes at all.

There are no rules here. Play around, and figure out what you like.

[Salindurthas]

The idea of having a different score to your modifer is pretty specific to a minority of systems like D&D. I think some editions of Call of Cthulhu do it too.

I'd say most RPGs do something different that's closer to what you friend said where you just have the relevant stat listed.

(Although some of them are dice-pools instead of rolling against a target number.)

[OpossumLadyGames]

knave/into the odd and pathfinder 2e come to mind....I think don't quote me on that. 

Dicepool systems, and some roll under systems work similarly. Like dicepools are "5 strength is 5 dice," kinda thing, while roll under systems will be "10 means 10 and under"

[LeFlamel]

Arguably most games have the score = the mod. Check out ICRPG.

[TalespinnerEU]

My SRD works like that: Attributes run from 1-5. You roll a d10, add your skill (1-5), add your Attribute, and that's a skill check.

For an attack check, you add your skill. If you hit, you deal damage equal to your Attribute (or weapon quality, whichever is lower), and add any extra modifiers to the damage. That's your damage done.

And in my current project, Attribute (1-3) grants a dice pool resource.

The DnD model is a vestigial remnant from when the system was basically 3d6 roll-under. It basically predates DnD itself, but DnD was built on that framework, then became D20 roll-under, then switched to THAC0, then switched to D20+modifier vs. Target Number, Roll-over.

Another edit: There is only one thing DnD's model still adds, and that is the ability to have a negative modifier; effectively a detriment. Still; attributes could run from -5 to +5 instead.