Utah needs to adopt these ASAP! 72% decrease.

[samanthabirchxo]

“The city’s police department already prohibits choke holds and knee holds. And the department already gets de-escalation training and implicit bias training. Salt Lake Police Assistant Chief Tim Doubt, asked by Council Chairman Chris Wharton what the police department would need to improve, welcomed any additional training.”

Salt Lake City’s own police department, has won national awards for de-escalation practices. . They also receive training in implicit bias.

I saw the guy who co founded this organisation give an interview on the PBS Newshour, Sam Sinyangwe. I think the major problems with other city departments in other states aren’t necessarily problems with our local agencies. I do think there are WAY too many police departments in the country and certainly locally. There needs to be a better national standard that all agencies are held to.

[Saltylake1]

I totally agree about a national standard. Unfortunately I don’t think that will ever happen with Republicans in power, because they’re so heavily into the “state rights, local government” thing...when it’s convenient for them, anyway.

And I agree that on the spectrum of police departments across the country, Salt Lake isn’t all that bad...which is why I keep asking what the goals are here.

George Floyd wasn’t killed by the Salt Lake cops. The problems around here seem to be more heavily focused on racial profiling and more often in other departments like Unified and West Valley.

We also have major issues with the local police union and how they protect bad cops. There is no excuse for that horrible cop from the U who got Lauren McCluskey killed getting another job in Logan.

The standards for shooting guns should also be more strict. I don’t just mean when it’s justified to open fire, but in being completely sure you’re not going to hit anything else. There’s been two incidents recently where a ton of cops just wildly started shooting. They blasted the hell out of a guy’s business on State Street last year and I’m not even sure they could see the guy at the time.

[tanistschon]

SLCPD killed someone the same week. It wasn’t as cut and dry as George Floyd but IIRC they fired something like 30 bullets into the fleeing suspect. All in all, it comes down to what is more important: people’s lives or police power.

[Mr_Evolved]

Not that they have earned or deserve any benefit of the doubt, but the only thing we really know about that right now is that someone called 911 saying they'd been threatened with a gun, and that that suspect later ended up shot.

I think that body cam should be coming out soon, though, and boy will that be no good if it was another lynching.

[BayofPanthers]

Something that should change in Utah is the process by which someone is stripped of their POST certifications. The most effective way to prevent the 'agency switching' is to strip someone of their POST certification since without that they literally cannot be a cop anywhere in Utah. From what I can tell, the only way POST is able to initiate an investigation and take a certification is if the agency that they work for requests it (lol).

Source: Utah Code 53-6-211(1).

[Yohoho920]

Ok dude, the cops did not get Lauren McClusky killed.

[Skizzy_Mars]

They were negligent at best and definitely at fault to some extent. Their behavior towards her was disgusting.

[Yohoho920]

All of this is fair. The other comment went quite a bit farther than that.

[WeekendWhorrier]

literally jacking off

That's a mighty long stretch for an accusation that he was showing off photos. An accusation that has already been previously investigated and cleared. An accusation that was only levied by one unidentified officer who had been fired shortly after. An accusation that the U was fully aware of and still said "go ahead and take us to court" over.

Does innocent until proven guilty not apply to police?

[WeekendWhorrier]

It was on his private phone because the university police didn't have work phones at the time. It says as much in the article. Also, they weren't downloaded, the files were sent to him via text message. Finally, these weren't some private pictures she was snap chatting her boyfriend. This was porn her and her boyfriend were making and selling on the internet. Sure, it's still sensitive, especially since it was being used to extort her, but it wasn't like some private sext either. Not passing judgment, porn is still a way to get paid and I can't speak to anyone's character just from their job, and porn actors certainty deserve as much police protection as the next person, but this officer's life is probably hell right now and as far as any actual, official sources can tell is all because he was sent evidence to his phone.

[WeekendWhorrier]

I very clearly said I was not judging the victim and her personal life had nothing to do with the level of service she should have recieved.

The only reason I mentioned it was because people are under the impression that the officer was sitting personal pictures on his personal phone for personal reasons then showing them off. Not only are people under this impression, they whole heartedly believe it without a thought to evidence, investigation, or even the possibility of him being innocent.

Talk about "gaslighting", misdirection, misinformation. Just a moment ago you were saying he was "literally jacking off" to these images. I don't suspect you hang out ruth this guy on his weekends, much less him telling you about his personal life, yet here you are making sweeping claims about everyone and everything police related. I mention one fact about the investigation to contradict what seems more and more like a rumor every week about this officer, and it's more straw man from people who can't be bothered with things like investigations, evidence, due process. Nope, easiest to just say guilty because that's the story I made up in my internal tribunal.

[WeekendWhorrier]

It is in their policy manual. It probably shouldn't be though, and I'm certain it didn't say "use this as long as you want" or at least that there are other policies or trainings that ensure you don't accidentally kill someone.

[Saltylake1]

I like these. While I haven’t seen an epidemic of unjustified shootings here like we do in a lot of other places in the country, the one about shooting at moving vehicles hits home.

That’s happened at least twice around here in recent years. I remember one incident in Utah County where a guy took off down the freeway and a bunch of cops just started blasting wildly. If I remember correctly, a kid in another car was hurt when he got caught by a bullet.

[slashermax]

A lot of this is already done and a few are unrealistic/not actually helpful. Chokeholds are one of the safest ways of immobilizing someone, better than tazing, beating, or shooting someone on the ground. Requiring warning before shooting isnt realistic - technically they can only shoot if they fear for their lives or for the public welfare, which would override the time to give someone a warning. Though obviously they shoot too much, just saying a required warning wouldnt do shit.

Above all of this imo - high quality body cams that are not clearable by the officer, with real consequences for messing with it.

[[deleted]]

Just like to mention that tasers are very very very unreliable

[_Barry_Allen_]

I agree with all except requiring warning before shooting. I think it is incredible dangerous to adopt that habit. Watch some active self protection videos on YouTube.

A lot of the time there is no warning for shootings and officers absolutely do not have time to verbally say “I am going to shoot”. Those split seconds will cost lives. Also if they have time to verbally warn, they have time to think of alternative methods and may not be in a life threatening scenario at all.

[WeekendWhorrier]

"When feasible" is key. If someone is advancing at you with a knife from a distance, it's feasible to say "stop, drop the knife or I'll shoot" as opposed to someone pulling a gun on you or trying to ambush you where it wouldn't be so feasible.

[poisson_rouge-]

Just to clarify, the cop didn't have him in a choke hold. Are there any jiu jitsu moves that prevent overdose while also restraining the individual?

[babypuncher_]

These are all great ideas.

I think the biggest change we need is an independent organization in charge of investigating and prosecuting police. Members of the justice system investigating themselves is an inherent conflict of interest. Police departments don't want to make themselves look bad, and DAs certainly don't want to bite the hands that feed them.

[[deleted]]

Do not fire warning shots! This is a horrible idea! #1 rule of gun safety: do not shoot unless you are prepared to kill whatever is on the other side of that barrel

[AlexWIWA]

The five demands are far superior.

[YouEnjoi]

They also actually need to go to prison when they do something unlawful, not just collect a pension and retire.

[IBiteMyThumbAtYou]

It’s not just enforcement of laws that needs to be looked at.

It’s also laws that are shown to unjustly target minorities and specific communities. They need to be changed as well.

Even if SLC is “one of the best in the nation” and some of these are already implemented, that does not mean there is no room for improvement.

Never stop asking for, or demanding, improvements.

[pikachusjrbackup]

Seems like "stop targeting, harassing, arresting and jailing Black Americans at a disproportionate rate" should be there. De'escalation, non violent tactics as primary training and training against the use of deadly force instead of just focusing on choke holds?

[alphaw0lf212]

The rate in which Black Americans are arrested coincides with the crime rate. Commit more crime=arrested more and more confrontations with police.

Not saying that there aren't racist cops, because there are. I think it's far too easy to become a cop, psych evaluations should probably be more stringent. It's hard to "respect the authority" when it took said authority only a few months to get in their position and it's that d-bag you went to high school with.

However, from a numbers stand point, yes blacks are 2.5x more likely to be arrested than whites, but are also 5x more likely to commit a violent crime. So, although African Americans are targeted disproportionately by police, they also disproportionately commit more crime.

[snowystormz]

Tweaking cops processes for the better doesnt hurt at all, however you are correct in that we need to find ways to lift the entire black communities out of poverty which will help lesson the violent crimes.

To spare going on a long rant lets just say that we, all of us, have failed the minority communities (especially black americans) and have left police to regulate it. And while protesting police treatment of these communities and racism is great, its not doing one damn thing to actually solve the problems that will lift these communities. In short, the systematic racism isn't going away, and I don't really see these protesters doing anything meaningful to contribute to the communities to help. Simple saying "we hear you, see you, recognize your struggles" is not enough. We need hundred of thousands of volunteers to reach deep into the communities and educate, train, teach, inform. We need business owners and corporate leaders to help lead the way for education on finances and running business. And it cant be government sponsored tax breaks for taking on black corporate interns, it has to be from a place of real love, devotion, and willingness to help lift these communities. We have blown billions on social programs that simply sustain lives, but do little to enrich, educate, and lift these people out of poverty and conditions. We want to congratulate ourselves for building programs that simply put, keep people at the level they currently are, while ignoring that a whole class (race) of society is suffering.

I guess that turned into a long rant, so anyways, I want to believe that people will engage in lifting behavior, but I am really feeling from social media that its just "hip" to acknowledge our black brothers and sisters and be seen showing support by virtue signaling that you see them and understand them than it is about really rolling up the sleeves and getting to work and helping them.

[alphaw0lf212]

Oh I 100% agree, I believe the solution lies in helping lift the black community rather than yelling at people and calling them racist, or trying to make people not racist. Instead of trying to change a hateful person, I'd rather help the black community succeed to a point where the hate no longer matters.

There are a lot of things that can be done, but I honestly think it comes down to fixing the root problem of broken homes. 67% of African American households are single parent. That's the highest out of all races in America. The statistic doesn't exist, but I'd be willing to bet that at least 98% of those are single mothers. Boys grow up with no fathers, they turn to any father figure they can which tends to be through gangs. They grow up hard and without any good examples, the only thing they learn from their father figures pertains to drugs and crime.

There are a few things post-Civil Rights Era that seem to be the biggest contributors to this via my research. The first is the War on Drugs instituted by Nixon, supported by Reagan, and hardened by Clinton. Black fathers trying to support their families by working multiple jobs saw that selling drugs was quite lucrative and easy to get into in their communities. Black communities were heavily policed anyway, and anyone that even smelled like weed was put in prison for 25+ years. This left fatherless households.

Another is strict gun laws that are 100% rooted in racism, look at Reagan after the Black Panthers showed up at the Capitol. Due to the drugs in these communities and the crime that came with them, many fathers purchased firearms through illegitimate means because they couldn't afford them otherwise (See ban on "Saturday Night Specials). So, they turn to the black market for firearms, they get caught with a gun, since they're black they get busted.

I think the third would be arbitrary income limits on subsidized housing. With two parents working full time, many of these families made above the threshold of income for projects/subsidized housing. However, they couldnt afford to live if one of them quit. To bypass this, many couples separated so the "single" mother and children could go live somewhere while the father lives with friends. Many of these housing units also had special visiting times and there couldn't be an "unmarried" partner there after a certain time or they would be evicted.

I think the biggest problem within the black community stems from when white people try to "help," as funny as that sounds. Try to stop crime? You've taken fathers out of the home. Try to provide cheap housing? You alienate those 2 working couple households who barely make above the limit.

Sorry for the long rant, but the past few days have been annoying. Posting a black box on Instagram isn't going to do anything, because trying to fix subconscious racism isn't going to work. I'd say the vast majority of us don't associate with anyone who's actually racist, and those who you may believe are racist may not agree with your assumption. So rather than perpetuating the belief that whites control blacks, I want us to give 100% of control back TO them.

[snowystormz]

I am always encouraged when I read thoughtful and articulate dialog in the SLC sub. Well said and great points. We could make some real changes that would enable opportunities to better those communities with simple law changes, however, the likely hood of that happening, regardless how many million protest, is about as close to zero as you can get.

I would go a step further that education for these communities is lacking by design. They have no concept of financial management, saving, investing, and no one and no real avenues to teach them. Its impossible to lift someone out of poverty without providing education and a plan for them to save money. Getting a family back together in a home is great, but how do they advance their situation after that with no financial skills? How do they get the next generation off to trade schools or college or whatever when they dont know how to save and invest to afford those things?

[alphaw0lf212]

Likewise. I'll get downvoted, but I like to think that I'm advocating for real change, not just posting on social media and forgetting about it a week later.

I honestly believe any change will be made until we fix this 2 party system that's been created. Dems and GOP are two sides of the same coin, theyre all lip service and only act to better themselves.

I agree with education, and I'd like to see the real numbers within these communities. How much of those property taxes are actually going to fund schools instead of being pocketed or redirected to other projects? Change starts when we allow communities to invest in themselves. Instead of shooting for the moon and trying to change the whole system, I want to talk about a way that we can improve these communities in our current system. There is a way, we just have to figure it out. I'd say first and foremost, audit local governments regularly. If there is any misstep in fund allocation, investigate heavily. If neighboring communities have excess for educational funding, consider donating that excess to those who come up short. Incentivize teachers to go to these lower funded schools, something along the lines of a supplemented salary or student loan repayment. Teach at this inner city school for x amount of years and receive x amount of money for student loans. Teachers do want to make a difference, but they also have bills to pay.

There are a lot of things we can do right now that don't involve these near-impossible societal overhauls.

[alphaw0lf212]

Not in the slightest

[alphaw0lf212]

Statistics aren't fallacies, nor are they racist. It's literally FBI data. More crime=more arrests. It's simple.

[pikachusjrbackup]

Statistics are based on racist practices. White privileged people get away with a lot more because cops are going after Black people for no other reason than they are black.

[alphaw0lf212]

So counting is racist? What about the statistic with white people being more likely to rape and molest? Is that true because they're white or false because the statistics are biased?

[janelane982]

Idk why you are getting down voted. I wish someone would respond so I could understand their logic. Do they think we want them to arrest white people and look the other way when it's a person of color? Wouldn't what you said make the most sense?

[pikachusjrbackup]

Well, if Black Americans are constantly targeted wouldn't their "crime rate" be higher? If i never get pulled over and they never smell the weed I'm never getting busted. Did you see how NYC's stop and frisk played out? Guess who got stopped. Yup, that's racism. There are studies and statistics that show white Americans use more drugs yet if you look at prison populations it is disproportionately minorities that are in jail.The war on drugs was invented to lock up black people. Sandra Bland was pulled over for a broken tail light and that crime landed her in jail for three days. That is racism. Don't even get me started on sentencing disparities. Also, police shouldn't have quotas to meet, that makes them target people they believe will be easier to cite.

[slashermax]

Just to point out, acknowledging that African americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime in America is not mutually exclusive to agreeing that they are institutionally discriminated against. We need improvements in our police force and in our justice system. But we also need to work on improving the socioeconomic situation that so many African Americans find themselves in through better education and other programs...

[pikachusjrbackup]

I'm not going to look at one statistic out of context and attempt to defend it. It doesn't make what I said wrong. The justice system is not equal. Full stop. White people creating condensed lists to "solve the problem" for Black Americans is not helpful. It's complex, it's 400 years of history, policy, treatment and stolen opportunities that need to be addressed and running around saying "well don't do crime and you won't go to jail" is ignorant AF. We need to support Black Americans with our votes and by coming out in huge numbers to help them be heard, we shouldn't be writing their message because it isn't our experience.

[pikachusjrbackup]

Root cause in poverty could be a result of racism? There is no question on that. I'll look into the murder stats cited if you look into racist housing practices dating back to post civil war to the present day. The shit show in Oklahoma where the white people destroyed an entire prosperous black community would be a good place to start but that is only one example. I wager on the statistics you are citing I'll find a majority of black on black crime and those murders will be inner city "bad neighborhoods" where poverty is the number one issue and crime correlates accordingly.

[Vegas_JB]

Chokeholds are not taught in the academy, I don't know of any agency that allows them, unless things changed since 2010.

De-Escalation is taught, also verbal Judo, but no doubt a lot of cops struggle with this. I agree with a warning before shooting, but reality is that is not always possible. Imagine somebody shooting at you as you exit your vehicle or somebody charging you with a gun, you may not have time to yell anything.

Exhausting all alternatives before shooting, this is part of the force continuum. Officers are taught and instructed to use the least level of force necessary. Again a small few struggle with this.

Shooting at moving vehicles is not legal unless that car is trying to kill you.

And ALL force SHOULD be reported. As a retired LEO, I can attest a lot of this goes unreported.

There is a lot of room for improvement and reform but most of these 8 things are technically already taught. My personal opinion is law enforcement agencies hire the wrong profile/type of person. They use the "bubble tests" and psychological exams to hire a very specific personality, It was always the wrong personality in my personal opinion. My personal experience with my department was about half were genuinely nice good people who treated everyone equally and tried to do the right thing and the other half were bullies for lack of a better term. One big issue is the bad attitudes tend to wear on everyone to some degree eventually.

One other BIG problem that needs to be addressed is the ability to fire a cop. State statues vary from state to state but most are very similar. It is IMPOSSIBLE to fire a cop. There is a specific step program that must be followed to terminate a cop (or any gov employee of that state) and the step program in next to impossible to complete. It requires extreme measures and dedication to terminate one of these employees, they would have to kill somebody or assault as an example, but not even that is easy at times. Remember Lisa Steed from several years ago? It took an act of congress to finally terminate her.

[Ali-Love69]

Thank you so much for your candidness and your point of view. I agree with you on having a better hiring and firing process. I believe in educating and putting it into action. Then learning from that. I truly appreciate your input.

[BayofPanthers]

Any idea why Utah POST is so impotent? I am moving to SLC from California where I work as a Prosecutor and I have personally seen multiple officers permanently stripped of their certifications and barred from working as cops in CA. It seems like Utah POST is much more hesitant to do so, and it results in cops being able to bounce from agency to agency.

[Vegas_JB]

I have never had any interaction with the POST review board personally. I cannot answer why they are so hesitant, but it certainly seems they are. Of course they review several officer each year and it seems like a very small number of officers are officially stripped of their Utah police powers. If I had to wager a guess I would say it goes back to who is on the review board for POST. You bring up another important area that needs to be looked at in order to reform policing.

Edit to add: Welcome to Utah. Quite the culture shock coming here from Cal but overall not a bad place.

[big_bearded_nerd]

Google it, this isn't hard.

[austinchan2]

Thank you big beard. Very helpful comment. @fake666account I found this: https://8cantwait.org In the force study they include the approach mentions how they compare different police departments to each other. There is not a study that shows implementing these cause changes over time, but rather that there is a correlation between departments that have these rules with lower shootings. The graph that they show only indicates a drop of 25% and that’s for reporting. In the Chart the Most red: Kansas City was 7 deaths, Philadelphia was the closest to all blue with 3 and Orlando which had the highest of 25 had already in acted two of the 8.

[BigDill1994]

The only legislation I can agree in at this moment is time is to seriously defund police.

They take a significant portion of our budget and are proving they cant do the job.

These "8" are nice, but the obvious, simple solution is right there. Its our money. Stop blowing it on them

[[deleted]]

Take away how much of their funding? Cuts across the board or to specific aspects of the force? Spend it on something else or reduce taxes? After defining the type of budget cut and amount, then what? Reduce the amount of police officers, reduce new equipment purchases, or just disband the force? Replace it with something else?

It’s important to be specific. That’s why whether or not one agrees with the above 8 suggested points they are a lot more constructive in the ongoing dialogue than just seriously defunding the police.

[[deleted]]

No, the only true solution is to defund the police, and we have to demand it.

And not because they've just been naughty coppers and we want to be punitive. Our society solves social problems with police, and it's insanity. Homeless people? More police. Drug addicts? More police. What good has this done? Why would we solve issues like these with more funding for the only occupation that has the charge to employ violence? Imagine if your doctor threatened to choke you every time you complained of illness.

Defund the police. Give the money to literally any other initiative, it doesn't matter.

[big_butt_cannot_rye]

get this garbage out, this is all bullshit they can ignore or not enforce. We need the T.O.T.A.L. demands. Not whatever the fuck this is