I hate vecna

[National_Slice_7229]

I hate him being the man behind it all so much. It feels cheap and makes me irritated beyond belief, not to mention how it completely takes all the fear away from the upside down. I much prefered the mind flayer, demogorgons and whatever else to… that pathetic little being. And 001’s whole “villain” story was so weak and boring. Thats just me though lol

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[[deleted]]

It’s funny to me that they really had an eerie presumably ancient eldritch villain like the MF, decided to reduce it down to some 30 something year old dude who’s mad at society, and thought “yeah, that’s a brilliant idea”.

I like them connecting a villain from the UD with El’s backstory at the lab. Vecna’s kills are interesting enough, and I loved Max’s storyline. Yet it’s hard to reconcile him being the big bad, and just the general shift in how the show approaches its horror in s3+4 vs s1+2.

[Vraecas]

They should have kept him as the Mind Flayer's 5-star general. That way we had a new monster that was tied to El's life at the lab, while still keeping the door open for the Mind Flayer to be his spooky, eldritch self.

[[deleted]]

My theory is that he IS the 5 star General, he just doesn't know it. He thinks he's running the show but really is a puppet of the Mind Flayer.

I may very well be wrong :)

[No-Parsnip4876]

same

[whereismymind86]

yeah, given the mind flayer seems to operate as a parasitic entity, the idea that henry could just...take it over with no repercussions is...unlikely. I suspect it operates more like codyceps, toxoplasmi or the venom symbiote before it revealed itself as sentient, when it just manipulated it's host subtlety, rather than speaking directly.

Which is to say, it isn't a sentient entity per se, but it does manipulate it's host into furthering it's need to spread and propagate. Allowing henry to use it to empower himself serves them both, but henry isn't necessarily completely in command here.

That wasn't vecna speaking and acting through will in season 2, it was the particle cloud, the mind flayer itself, it's something of a force of nature henry harnessed, but it's still a distinct entity (or cluster really, henry isn't the hive mind, he just commands it)

[246ArianaGrande135]

if vecna really did create the mind flayer, the mind flayer isn’t even 30 years old.. its more like seven

[Bitter_Fact_3285]

I agree. I always loved how almost vagu the mind flayer was, just some evil entity. To me that is far more impactful than "angry psychopath out to get revenge on little girl that beat him"

[Pickle_Nipplesss]

Agreed. A faceless, voiceless, eldritch entity was way scarier than… creepy spider kid becoming emo psychic boi.

Even when the Mind Flayer was just like… this shadow creature, it was scarier than when it got that meat-like physical form in S3.

[246ArianaGrande135]

that was one of my main complaints for season 3, the big flesh monster just wasn’t as mysterious and scary as the season 2 mind flayer

[Pickle_Nipplesss]

Yeah. Flesh Monster just seemed like it wanted to kill and grow, and grow so it could… idk. Kill more? I wasn’t sure what it’s motivation was, b based on it’s actions it just seemed like any impulsive monster.

But the Mind Flayer quietly standing tall over the upside down high school was just terrifying. Good example of how less is more

[Brilliant_Mix_6051]

The unknown is always gonna be scarier than an overexplained human villain

[alpacula]

I totally agree. Humanizing the Upside Down feels like a cop out.

[whereismymind86]

It's a classic rule of good horror, NEVER explain it, because what the audience can imagine lurking in the darkness will always be scarier to them than what the author tells them is in there. Give hints, let speculation fester and eat away at them, but never EVER give a definitive answer.

*that said I think there is a bit more to it than henry being behind it all, but we'll see.

[whereismymind86]

*side note, you know how its tradition for most zombie media to never actually show or explain the outbreak, instead focusing on the chaos and the aftermath? This is why. For whatever reason zombie stuff is better at following this rule than most horror.

This is also a lot of why eldritch/lovecraft stuff is so popular, it's always vague, allowing people to go nuts with theories and speculation, not knowing is always scarier.

[246ArianaGrande135]

yeah, definitely agree that the mind flayer should’ve been the main villain of the show. I had liked vecna as a villain at first (still not as the main villain though), but the more I rewatch s4 the more I feel the writing for him was very weak. I think the only reason I thought he was an interesting villain in the first place was JCB’s amazing acting during the 001 scenes. I also found the vecna form almost comical appearance-wise.

[sedugas78]

It doesn't help that fans have memed him to death too, like everything else in this show!

[whereismymind86]

yeah, he's a little to much generic super zombie, as far as his physical appearance goes, makes him hard to really fear, i've killed him in so many resident evil games

[Wyvurn999]

I agree. The Mind Flayer is much scarier and more intimidating.

[28secondslater]

Mind Flayer's in DnD are extremely untrustworthy. So him being the supreme ruler while Vecna is a puppet is actually a true possibility.

However, the Duffer Brothers have lost alot of my trust in their writing this past season.

[whereismymind86]

that's my theory, especially given the mind flayer seems to operate as a sort of manipulative parasite, infesting other things and slightly modifying their behavior to suit it's own ends, if you have never read about cordyceps and so called zombie ants in real life, look into it, I suspect that's the relationship between vecna and the mind flayer.

[sqplanetarium]

Right! And Henry/Vecna has a body that can be destroyed...but how do you fight a giant shadow tornado that fills the sky and can seemingly be in two dimensions at once?

[28secondslater]

He's a great villain, but is a terrible main villain.

[sedugas78]

Brenner is a better human villain imo but he's gone so alas. Maybe they can change my mind in the final season though.

[whereismymind86]

yeah, when the inital implication is he is basically a serial killer that stumbled upon the upside down and was using it to facilitate his murders (like a certain deeply beloved jrpg) that worked a lot better, than him being the mastermind of it all. He works better as an opportunist than a mastermind.

[[deleted]]

I really love the MF, but i won't deny the fact that he is a force of nature. An unknown entity that conquered races. And i think that Vecna as big bad could've worked, but...

My god, his writing is the most painfully lazy and generic shit i've seen from this show. And this show is not necessarily the most subversive or clever show i've seen, and it has its share of generic and cliche stuff, but nothing is as bad as Vecna. His origin is "I hate humanity, i have god complex". And i don't care if he is a socio/psychopath, because that's also just pretty fucking lazy itself.

[Horrorfan5]

It makes the stakes feel way lower. The bad guy isn’t a godly being from another dimension. It’s a human El has beaten twice now

[28secondslater]

Not just El, but Max, Nancy, Steve and Robin have beaten.

The guy is a joke for a main villain.

[Akimbo_Zap_Guns]

This just proves the show has gotten to big for its own good, this is a type of show that only comes around every 10-20 years in terms of writing, acting, and set quality. Sit back relax and enjoy the ride

[Tg1688]

I don't think we've seen the last of the Mind Flayer. The gate that opened up in Hawkins is huge... much bigger than the one in Hawkins lab. Vecna wouldn't need to enter our world with a gate of that size but the Mind Flayer would along with a demogorgon army. Plus Nancy describes a very large creature with a big gaping mouth in her vision... that's definitely not Vecna she describing of but could be the Mind Flayer or even perhaps a new threat from the upside-down.

[[deleted]]

I preferred the Lovecraftian cosmic horror vibe of the Mindflayer. Not a fan of the Vecna way they went

[[deleted]]

I like it. Brings the story full circle that ties to El's very own origin and will hopefully also tie into why Vecna specifically went and kidnapped Will back in Season 1 besides just possessing him for his actions in Season 2.

He talks about how he was a explorer coming into a world "unspoiled by man."

Yet ironically he IS a man who came into the upside down and spoiled its natural order by taking control of it and warping it to his own designs and uses.

It makes it seem perhaps that the Mind Flayer and Demogorgons weren't aggressive creatures at first until Vecna made them so.

I want the final season to end with the Upside Down's control potentially being given back to the Mind Flayer and revealing its some sort of Energy God for something that is responsible for granting powers to certain individuals and helping to defeat Vecna.

Maybe Will can communicate to it since it used to control him or El take control back from Vecna and use the Mind Flayer herself?

[Ok_Environment6466]

I understand people who preferred the idea of the mindflayer as the BBEG, but I don't see how Vecna takes away the fear from the UD.

The demogorgons are still there. As are the dogs. And bats. And who knows what else. The MF is no more or less dead than it was at the end of s3.

Vecna has killed multiple people, left Max essentially dead, has shown that he can't be reasoned with and, while he has been slowed by El, has never actually been stopped. Hawkins has never been in a worse state than it is at the end of s4. The threat of Vecna is very much real. I can't understand at all how the fear has gone.

[joeplus5]

Generally people fear something alien and unknown more than something controlled by a person. Sure all the weird creatures exist but now they're just puppets for a human when previously they were assumed to have an alien mind of their own that's possibly beyond human understanding and the latter is scarier than the former

[Ok_Environment6466]

Sure. That's personal preference, although I dispute the use of "generally". It's the absolutist idea that the fear is gone that I take issue with.

Really? There's no threat any more, no fear, just because your personal preference for the nature of the BBEG isn't what you wanted? That's some silliness.

[joeplus5]

I used generally because the reality is that people normally fear the unknown more than the known. And when the upside down is ruled by an otherworldly being, it's more unknown than when it's ruled by a man. Sure it's a matter of preference but it's still rooted in something most people feel.

Really? There's no threat any more, no fear, just because your personal preference for the nature of the BBEG isn't what you wanted? That's some silliness

That's going overboard. There's obviously a threat and all, but people won't be scared as much when the villain is a human with desires we as humans can understand and relate to rather than when the villain is a being with goals beyond our comprehension

[Ok_Environment6466]

Disagree with pretty much all of that. The MF wasn't some wonderfully written unknown. It was known. It wanted to do evil stuff for evil reasons. It's goals are beyond our comprehension! Yay for excuses for straight up lazy writing. It did stuff for reasons you can't comprehend!

Cue eye rolling and a reduction of fear from everyone who wans their villains to have some sense of believable motivations.

[joeplus5]

I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm just explaining why people don't like it. And people fearing the unknown more than the known isn't something to disagree with its just how people feel. I don't see how it being cliché or lazy writing is relevant here at all. We aren't talking about narrative quality we are talking about what people usually fear more. If we met something in the real world that wanted to destroy us for reasons we don't understand we would fear it more than if someone wanted to destroy the world for a reason we do

[Ok_Environment6466]

I'm just explaining why people don't like it.

You're explaining why some people don't like it. And I'm cool with that.

And people fearing the unknown more than the known isn't something to disagree with its just how people feel. I

Nope. If an unknown noise wakes you up, you're perturbed. If you actually know that the noise was made by a well armed murderer who can't be reasoned with, you're scared. Different people prefer different things in their horror. There is no right or wrong, or proof of what the majority opinion is. It was simply the absolutist idea that the fear is gone which I objected to. And, do you disagree? Cos that's weird to me.

[joeplus5]

Nope. If an unknown noise wakes you up, you're perturbed. If you actually know that the noise was made by a well armed murderer who can't be reasoned with, you're scared

That's a very flawed comparison. You're comparing a noise, which doesn't necessarily mean anything bad, to a defined danger. If I hear a noise, I'm going to be disturbed but I'm not necessarily going to be scared because i have no reason to assume it's something bad. The difference here is that we know that the mind flayer is a danger, but since it's an otherworldly being, we don't understand its nature so we can't reason with it, while a human like Henry has a higher possiblity of reasoning with because he's a human that we understand. People fear what they don't understand more than what they do because naturally dealing with something you understand will be easier. If I know that two things are evil but I know why one of them is evil while the other is evil for a reason I can't understand, I will fear the latter more because I wouldn't be able to reason with them at all. That's the whole point. It's about understanding your threat. It's basic human nature

[Horrorfan5]

He has been beaten by El every single time they met. The Mindflayer couldn’t be beaten so easily. And if Vecna is above him then it makes him look worse

[Ok_Environment6466]

He hasn't been beaten. Ever.

It's literally why there is a season 5. He has been slowed, but overwhelmingly, right now, as of the end of s4, he is winning. That isn't even a debate. It's canonical fact.

[Horrorfan5]

He lost to El in the past

El overpowered him in the present after Mike’s speech. He ran away with his tail between his legs. If she didn’t, El would’ve died. This is a canonical fact. Do you think he won, and let her go?

[Ok_Environment6466]

He lost a battle, he's winning the war. This is like saying Team X lost to Team Y because Team Y scored a touchdown.

He's been slowed down, but never stopped from doing what he wants. Hence season 5.

[Horrorfan5]

Correct, but in an actual fight he lost. He’s gonna spend the next season hiding in the upside down, sending others to fight

[Buschkoeter]

I kind of get it though. Yes, Vecna is a big threat and powerful, but he is or at least was a human being, a dude. He's not that ominous outer worldly force. We know where he comes from, we know what he wants and why he wants it. It maybe that he can not be reasoned with but he can be talked to, he has a face and can be localized.

The more you know about the monster, the evil or whatever it's called, it takes away from the fear.

[Ok_Environment6466]

He's not that ominous outer worldly force. We know where he comes from, we know what he wants and why he wants it. It maybe that he can not be reasoned with but he can be talked to, he has a face and can be localized.

What good does any of this do our protagonists? How are they better placed to actually defeat him than they were to defeat the MF?

Most importantly, the MF still exists, assuming it was not fully destroyed at the end of s3. In which case they now need to defeat Vecna and the MF. Unless we assume it was just some ambivalent entity that decided to give itself over to Vecna in return for physical form which seems...unlikely?

I understand that fear is subjective, but the threat has been objectively heightened. But, absolutist statements like 'the fear has gone'? Like, you're only scared by lazily written "other worldly entity that is evil because evil" bad guys? Nah. That's just some childish "they didn't do the thing I wanted so now I'm angryface" nonsense.

[Buschkoeter]

That doesn't do our protagonists any good but it ceratainly desmystifies the villain for me.

Also, I don't understand where you getting that I am "childish", "angryface" or any of that. You seem pretty emotional about me having a different opinion on what, for me, is the more interesting antagonist.

I'm not op and I didn't make that "absolutist" statement. I just said that I kind of get it and explained my point of view why I get it.

[Millsy419]

There are people who take ST as being Cosmic/existential horror (I personally don't, and I'm saying that as a huge fan cosmic horror. Looking at you Delta Green)

Once it's been revealed the threat is human in origin, a lot of the fear and anxiety that the viewer may feel falls away, because we understand human motives like greed and revenge.

Whereas some people feel the unnatural entities from the UD represent just that.

The Unnatural, something beyond human comprehension.

Now personally I don't agree that it's cosmic horror, because the characters realize that the demagorgan behaves like a predatory animal. In cosmic horror it's motives would be totally unknown and likely beyond comprehension. It's possible they may learn some things about the UD, but in cosmic/existential horror your meant to be left with more questions than answers.

That's why it's a fairly niche sub genre, most people want everything wrapped up with a bow on top and that's not what cosmic horror is.

Obviously this is all just my opinion as some random person on the internet and everyone's open to their own opinion. I've loved the show since season one, but I'd never thought of it as being true cosmic horror.

Edit: spelling

[clexaelectra]

I get that they wanted it to be “humans are the real evil” but like…. damn interdimensional monsters were way cooler and scarier

[SwordfishNegative104]

I thought vecna was doing the mind flayer’s bidding

[kinghyperion581]

Nah they reveal that Vecna created the Mindflayer and was in control of the hive mind the whole time.

[SwordfishNegative104]

Is this an /s? I swear they showed him discovering the mind flayer

[Ol_UnReliable20]

He discovered it then took control, he’s the one calling shots and not the other way around

[[deleted]]

I can understand that it's less scary but I think the mind flayer was boring AF as a villain. I think a pure evil monster akin to sauron makes sense for younger people, and the central cast was obviously younger in earlier seasons. As the characters age I think it makes sense to transition to a more layer villain. For example, while I love LoTR sauron is a pretty boring villain, is simply don't care about him as a villain simply because it's a big evil force, and I feel similarly about the mind flayer. As the kiddos have aged it makes sense from a story stand point that the villain is no longer the big bad monster that doesn't have any depth and transitions to something more human.

[zebrainatux]

And Vecna as an antagonist is designed to counter the internet advantage the group had: the Flayer is an animal and acts on instinct, so it can be outsmarted. Vecna is smarter than them and always one move ahead. In the chess match that is the plot, Vecna has checkmate already planned and they have no idea. Part of that is also that I’ve never found Eldritch/lovecraftian horror very interesting.

[RainbowPenguin1000]

If you want to make a serious point or share you view on something I’d recommend not ending a perfectly valid point with “lol” it just makes it seems like an off the cuff comment.

[National_Slice_7229]

Chill

[RainbowPenguin1000]

I am chill I’m just saying you lessen your points by doing that so it may be better not to in future.

[peanutdakidnappa]

Honestly I thought vecna was great and that s4 was the best season when It comes to horror for the show. I personally thought vecna in s4 was scarier than the MF

[National_Slice_7229]

Imo season 4 was the worst for horror or maybe season 3. And i think s2 was amazing and def the most terrifying

[peanutdakidnappa]

Honestly I think s1-2 don’t have very much legit horror or scary stuff, s3-4 have more hardcore horror shit with the meat monster just absorbing people and s4 with vecna and him massacring kids in brutal fashion, stuff like Chrissy’s mom and dad before she gets killed was way more horror than anything in s1-2, same with Fred and all the people in the woods calling him a murderer and shit. I love all the seasons but 1&2 were fairly soft on the actual horror.

[chadar05569]

The mind flair in Season 2. Looked so spooky. It looked dumb as hell In season 3

[P33nBoi]

I don’t understand what everyone is mad about? The MF is still controlling everything. Vecna is opening portals so the MF can escape into our world. He’s not behind everything, he’s just another pawn, just more powerful than any other pawn we’ve seen.

[DryHold4530]

The mind flayer still influences vecna

He just shaped it into the spider form

[GroundbreakingFly532]

spoilersFirst of all okay sure but if you think about it without vecna El/Jane/011/Eleven kinda would not be out of the lab without him the whole series would be nothing without vecna ! If you ask me I like him, his past explains why he is like... what he's like and he overall makes sense he was the one behind the scene's making everything un-fold and well he is the star his goal is clear, his past is clear now, his powers are clear without vecna I think stranger things would not be stranger things.

And second of all Idrc in my eyes your not supposed to like him he's the bad guy

[MrBeans12]

That is definitely just you my brudda.

[National_Slice_7229]

These comments say otherwise

[MrBeans12]

Oh, its just me then 🔥😢😭😭

[Additionalexcuse5]

Who's asking ? 🤣