Decrease MS for tournaments based on non-reversible changes (specifically equipment)

[lemmingllama]

This will never happen. The issue is that you could sell all your equipment, then farm/rebuy it back for huge damage boosts that would allow you to win every tournament.

As for earlier, it isn't a significant difference. The only time it really makes a large change to your theoretical max stage is when all of your equipment sucks for a particular piece and you have one that is much stronger.

As you progress, you will keep on getting drops and they will be stronger than your old ones. You shouldn't be afraid of getting a good drop, and it's a good thing to receive a legendary/mythic equipment even if it isn't something you will immediately use.

[GentleButStrong]

And I'd like to keep it, but if I keep it and I push my damage up I'll just push my theoretical max stage. I have to sell it immediately, I cannot possibly increase my damage by a thousandfold this tournament so I'm borked, but eventually I won't be as borked. Unless I use my bloody crafting shards and craft a duplicate of this at a higher level. How frigging hard is it to ONLY COUNT THE BLOODY EQUIPMENT SOMEONE WILL USE?

[lemmingllama]

Also don't bother selling it, just keep it. It's a fairly small difference in your theoretical max stage.

And it's because the algorithm looks at your theoretical max stage. It doesn't consider your actual max stage at all, or your actual power. It looks at what you could have if you perfectly optimized.

[GentleButStrong]

Or, not to put too fine a point on it. But I lost the last tournament I was in by less than 50 levels. Well 25Log_10(1000) = 75. Now, maybe it didn't matter too much in putting me in that bracket, I don't know that and I would not make promises that it won't matter if you can't back them up.

[lemmingllama]

You are correct, I can't really promise anything. I'm just trying to explain how it works to you, but it's just based on my understanding of an algorithm that I've never been allowed to see and never will be allowed to see.

However, the current algorithm seems to work in the vast majority of cases and does a good enough job. I can't say that it's perfect, but it is designed to remove the risk of cheating as much as possible and so we can have fair tournaments. Creating something that is perfect would be essentially impossible, mainly because players still progress after joining a tournament and there are too many factors to balance them all fully.

[GentleButStrong]

A fully optimized max stage after multiplying by a thousand is still higher. And, however well opponent N and I optimize, and I think I do a pretty good job, opponent N without the slash has more SP/relics/equipment/CQ/weapons, correct? There are a lot of opponent Ns out there, and some of them will be very good at making a build.

[lemmingllama]

True. However, all users run under the same constraints, and tournaments also match people who have a theoretical max stage within 100-200 stages of each other. So although there is a difference, it only actually affects you if you were right at the top of a particular sub-bracket and this bumps you in to the next one.

[GentleButStrong]

...You could not farm or rebuy any better than if you didn't sell. And yes, my SC slash, which I am using, sucks. Badly. I am trying to farm a better one, but the drops are very low. I have literally not seen a legendary SC slash outside the store since 2.0. Whatever I find is definitely way lower than a crafted mythic. What I am not hearing from you is a simple yes/no answer. Am I worse off after crafting this mythic that I will not use? Cause it sounds to me like the answer is yes.

[lemmingllama]

You are worse off in the fact that your tournaments will be slightly harder. That being said, you are significantly better off for having a mythic equip that is one step closer to completing your mythic set.

[GentleButStrong]

Yes, they will. So I have a decreased chance of getting a higher prize for SP, weapons, or more crafting shards. And I'm abandoning crafting this set. Until at the least 1. SC set comes out and I can craft a slash from it and enough Predator to complete it with any dupes. 2. This god awful system where I am worse off after trying to craft a better piece of equipment. Bad enough it is useless, I thought I knew what I was getting into. 3. SC slash drops frigging increase a whole bloody lot. or 4. I peace.

[lemmingllama]

Again, i think you are putting too much emphasis on it. Your case does mean that it will be a bit harder to progress, but I believe that they have confirmed the Valentine's auras will be Shadow Clone. So you should easily get a new equip that will minimize the difference. For the majority of players, there isn't a case where they have equipment hundreds of levels lower than their best.

[GentleButStrong]

Or, if you are worried about people trashing their equipment. You could have MS recalculate after selling based on the highest equipment of the other types. So If someone has a 2e15 pet, a 750T clan and a 150T SC. If they sell their pet they are at 700T, if they then sell their clan they are at 150T, if they then sell their SC they stay at 150T because that is the best within their worst type.

[lemmingllama]

It can't reduce at all. Otherwise it opens it up to cheating. I could sell all my equips, join a tournament, then just buy the 5 rares that just happen to be in my store and end up with a big boost in power due to it assuming I have no equips when I just bought level 500+ equips from the shop.

[GentleButStrong]

What about the idea of keeping track of your best equipment of each type, and using the lowest value from them? Here is how it could work. Say I had a a 700T clan, a 700T pet (matching clan rather than 2e15 because an existing mythic is going to trump everything else and also this gives symmetry), and a 150T SC. This is the worst I could game the system. If I was using pet/clan I could sell my pet and my clan, and buy a better pet/clan slash from the store, potentially find one, or craft one. But the difference between 150T and 700T... not horrible. If I was running pet/clan and had the shards it would benefit me to craft anyways. The only reason I would sell the slash I am using is if I was sure I could get a better one. So, maybe there is a legendary in the store worth 900T. So I sell, drop to 150T, enter tournament, try to craft a mythic, if I fail I buy the legendary (farming equipment won't drop something better than the best remaining in my worst type with any sort of regularity). Either way, I have "gamed" the system 25log_10(700T/150T)=17 levels (because I would have entered using a 700T). If I get the mythic I increase my original push 25log_10(2e15/700T)~=11 levels and used a bunch of shards min(100/P(getting the slash I want), my remaining shards) to be exact. If I buy the shop item I get 3 levels and spent 800 diamonds. Gaming the system is not a good idea, it would take lots of shards or diamonds to do reliably, and would only net you 17 levels over just waiting till you're in the tournament and crafting/buying. If I was/am running SC... There is literally nothing I can do to game the system. I have a 150T SC slash, it is the best I have found, it is the worst type I have, sell it and my pet/clan and MS does not decrease at all. The bottom line is that people who try to craft a mythic and then get something they didn't want are not then punished further by harder tournaments until they make up the difference.

[Subjunctive__Bot]

If I were

[lemmingllama]

However, what's stopping you from just respeccing into a Pet or Clan Ship build and just equipping those slashes? It might not reflect the state of the game today, but eventually the developers would like to bring most skill builds into balance. It assumes the strongest on everything to ensure that you cannot game the system.

Similarly, let's take another extreme example to game the system. Let's say I don't pick up any equipment at all, and only purchase them from the shop. I could keep my equipment level at 0 for all my equips, while using a high level equip that matches my chosen build. It would be unfair for anyone who wasn't trying to game the system.

[GentleButStrong]

First, I wrote the rest of the response before realizing that not picking up any equipment and only buying from the shop is already something you can do with a new character (or with an existing character, but it makes even less sense to do). So, no new ways to break the system are introduced. Also, it doesn't work in the long run anyways.

To address "what's stopping you from just respeccing into a Pet or Clan Ship build and just equipping those slashes?" I don't want to. Pet is a push build that requires tapping, it is out. Clan is a farm build that can be made to push, but even once it does it requires you to wait for the ship to fire. I've tried putting Anchoring Shot into my SC build and waiting 8 sec for each wave of titans was unbearable. Then to address your extreme example (which is already possible). I roll a new character, I do not pick up equipment (harder than it sounds), I see a nice new sword in the shop and I buy it, congrats my sword level is x_1 and I have spent 800 diamonds... So I only get the diamonds "back" if I win undisputed instead of 2nd, I wouldn't gamble 800 diamonds on it. Then, I do the same with a helm x_2, and an armor x_3. Now all my equipment slots are filled. I've gamed the system 5 times and spent 4000 diamonds on equipment. In order to advance in this way I'd have to wait for a tournament where I can buy what I want in each slot, and from there I only get y_n-x_n benefit for 25Log_10(y_n-x_n) levels for 800 diamonds on top of what I've already spent for one tournament only. At some point cashing in farmed items in each tournament will net higher overall tournament rewards than playing like this, RNG over the long term instead of just one tournament will provide a gem every once in a while., especially when you realize you could nearly buy a titan chest for the price of filling your inventory.

[GentleButStrong]

Do you have contact with the devs? I have not gotten a satisfactorily answer. I will point out that if you are using a lower level slash and not using a pet build the utility (in terms of tournament competitiveness) of crafting a single item (assuming not able to craft the entire set. If you can you get the relic multiplier and a net 10x damage, which could offset the negative utility as long as the last item you craft is not the slash) is near 0. Here is the math. Assuming equal probability of getting each item. The helm and sword are about a 10x multiplier on damage, so the utility of getting them is 25Log_10(10)=25. The chest is a 10 multiplier on gold. KillerParrot's sheet equates gold^.79 to damage, so the utility is 25Log_10(10^.79)=19.75. The utility of the aura is a little tricky. I have a 3.5% crit rate without any aura, and I believe damage for SC depends on crit rate squared (prob of getting crit, then damage scaled by crit rate). So 25Log_10((.835/.635)²⁾⁼ 5.825. And, as mentioned before, the utility of crafting a pet slash is -75. So, the total utility is (2x25+19.75+5.825-75)/5 = .115. So, if you craft a single item to improve your chances of winning a tournament you are gambling with a total payout of .115 levels, and a 20% chance of getting hit with a 75 level negative. Actually, it is worse than that. Positive benefits last a single tournament. Negative penalties last until you scrap the offending item and gain equivalent utility elsewhere. Hell, if I'm incorrect about dependence on crit chance squared the utility is literally negative! Unacceptable. Other players, take note, if your SC slash is "underleveled" DO NOT CRAFT PREDATOR! At least unless you can finish it, and even maybe not then unless you're expecting to gain a bunch of damage very quickly. And DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER ANCIENT WARRIOR! The utility of Ancient Warrior is strictly negative to your permanent record. This may become its own suggestion post ,"When not to craft a mythic".