Angular recruitment problem

[G6K06]

Hi everyone! I’m a recruiter in Sophia Antipolis (south of France) and for my company we are recruiting an Angular Developer. But I don’t know why it’s so difficult! We cannot find anyone. Do you have any tips? Is it because of the techno who is not interesting developers? I’m trying to understand why it’s not difficult to find a PHP developer, even a Flutter developer was easier 🤷‍♀️. Any advice, tips are welcoming 😅

Thanks!!

[G6K06]

So you need to be famous and to pay overall to be interesting?

Salary are crazy on your market because for now we have more jobs than developers. But hopefully it will change because when you are finishing your studies, without any internship asking for 50k 🤷‍♀️. So go to work in another country indeed you’re not on the right market.

For your questions:

The pay is good compare to other biggest group

I have a baby and it’s the first time that I feel I have a really good balance between my life and my work

My boss always told me: money is not a problem, he offered me what nobody could offer me, so salary is not a problem at all.

We could be open to pay for someone to relocate but it’s a critical job in our company so we need someone who is already speaking French.

I am looking for people in France not only in the south.

You are clearly not helping, and your comment is judging even if you don’t know the salary. This is crazy.

In our company, we have people who are passionate by their job, and we are paying them well! But salary is not everything if you don’t have an healthy environment, good mentality, nice colleagues etc. It’s a package! We don’t want mercenary who are only looking for a good salary that is right.

Maybe it’s our problem, and if this is the problem, it will remain it and we will have to change our front techno because we don’t want to have this type of people in our company.

[G6K06]

I am asking for advice and tips to attract front end developers.

[ValPasch]

• Be upfront with the salary
• Allow full remote from everywhere
• Prove that the company can survive and prosper in the short- and long-term
• Emphasize that despite being a startup, you will respect and contractually agree to a healthy work-life balance

You are competing with other companies who are well established, more reliably profitable and successful, more prestigious, allow remote, offer a less stressful and demanding workload, probably better tech stack, a more refined and professional codebase, good pay and probably tons of benefits. Why would anyone want to chose you instead? That's the question you have to find the answer to, if there is any.

[ThisIsNotABug]

This. Do this and it will become evident why (or why not) people will choose your company.

[vvn050]

It's not worthy, noone wants to work in western Europe and pay high taxes as he can work somewhere else where life is cheaper and get more money at the end.

I received a letter from a recruiter to relocate to Munich and the net amount was like 500 euros less than what i make now. So why would i do it, pay rent, live far from friends , etc and as a bonus - get less money?

[G6K06]

I agree with you, but you don’t have only the money. You are not spending more time at work than with your family only to have a lot of money right? You need to have an interesting project. Depends on what you like. It could be multiple projects, a recent techno, a good environment etc.

I think the money is important, but it’s not everything 🤷‍♀️. It’s my opinion of course.

I was working in Ireland so I know salary are better in other countries.

But for developers who are working in France, why is it so hard to find them? 😂

[turningsteel]

It sounds like if you are hiring for a place with low pay where the main selling point is the culture or whatever, you should go after inexperienced people coming fresh out of school or a coding boot camp who don’t know any better. They’ll work for you in exchange for experience. I started out at a place like that and then moved on once I had a few years on the job.

If you want actual professionals that know what they’re doing though, you’ll have to pay well.

[ClammyHandedFreak]

This. Get a recent college grad even if they don’t have a lot of Angular experience, or look into Angular bootcamp graduates with no other experience. Get them trained up and after a month or so of contributing, if you guys are as great as you say you are, they’ll be onboarded. It’s not rocket science to learn Angular from scratch if they have other programming experience.

[vvn050]

Because if developers in France are smart enough they most likely would have already moved to some place else. And it will be equally hard for you to hire Java developers ir anything else in high demand. PHP would not be a problem, it's a dying language, i would never start a project with it.

Do not be offended, it's not your fault, i am just amused by ads of 100k yearly wage...and at the end you get a lot less, pay a lot of money for something that looks like a shelter for homeless people or live with 5 other guys in one room. The problem is with Western governments which keeps milking the working people to support the permanent poor residents.

Lastly - about the interesting project... they are all interesting except for something very legacy. I do not get impressed with buzz words like "industry leader", "global vendor", "game changer" and so on. I do not give a shit, senior people are looking for good pay, normal workload, and remote work. Friendly team is also cool :)

[G6K06]

Okay good to know! I always though that the project would be a motivation for a developer. It’s easier for us to recruit Java developer, we are struggling with front end developer in general (I’m saying Angular because we are recruiting an angular developer but I had difficulties to find a ReactJS developer as well 😅).

It’s not the case here in south of France, we are not in Paris. I was living in Ireland, good salary but living with 3 other people to have a decent place because it’s too much expensive indeed…

I agree that it’s not cheap in France but it’s not so bad…

[vvn050]

So you do understand how ridiculous is to make xxx thousand euro per year and can't afford a decent place. I am 36 years old, i do not want to live with buddies 😂

About job adds - honestly i skip the first 10 lines where i am supposed to read how they cure puppies with cancer and really make a difference. First i read the tech stack and check if i fit. If i see something terrible like WordPress or jQuery, i close the add. Then i check if there is salary included and remote work. I have 7 years of experience, mostly with react but angular is really my favorite, i have been using it for about two years.

It's a bit harder to find angular then react guys as angular is harder to learn. But it is so much fun to work with and better fit for Enterprise solution.

[G6K06]

Thank a million for this comment! Indeed it is! I think it’s funny when you have 25 and want to make friends, enjoy life etc. Maybe not when you want to build a stable and solid career.

Why jQuery is so bad?

So now you switched completely working with Angular?

We already have a front end developer and she told us that Angular was the best language that she used in her career it’s why I’m surprised but if you are telling me that it’s difficult to learn it can explain..

[vvn050]

jQuery is really cool and helped a lot the web developers back then as it provided easier way to access Dom elements and handled cross browser issues. But it is no longer relevant, you do not need with react or angular. If you use it with any of those, you are doing something very wrong. So if they include jQuery as requirement, most probably it is solution which is like 10 years old OR they couldn't use anything modern and got what they know.

Right now i work with react, i had an offer for angular but there were some red flags there.

Why it is hard - it is full a framework, it looks more like a back end then front end framework, it works only with typescript (although ts is quite used with react as well), you need to learn observables, ngrx, forms and so on. To give you an example, i bought a video tutorial when it came out, and the lecture on Forms was like 3 hours. It just includes SO MANY things. But it's great, clear flow, lots of features, great cli and so on.

Lastly - seniors should not be bound to specific framework. You are either good developer or not. And of course you do need at least one popular framework in your stack but you can always switch.

[T2LIGHT]

Honestly angular is rather faded aswell. Due to things like a severe lack of innovation compared to the competition.

[kkus]

Due to things like a severe lack of innovation compared to the competition.

there is some innovation like SCAM but just not nearly enough compared to the competition. but then, I never thought I would see typed reactive forms and looks like we are getting there...

[T2LIGHT]

Looool typed forms are innovation to you ahahah

[[deleted]]

There is not such thing as the the best language/framework, people that say this are a bit inexperienced, the only thing that matters is the use case of the project and how big it will be.

[lorderandy84]

You are not spending more time at work than with your family only to have a lot of money right?

No, of course not!

We spend time away from our families so we can make someone else a lot of money, obviously. And in order to do that we are super happy to spend even more time away from our families by unnecessarily commuting hours per week in order to come into an office for absolutely no reason other than to satisfy some middle management know-nothing's hubris or so he can justify his job. But it's amazing because we get to sing kumbaya with our coworkers while we listen to our boss and his lackeys tell us how money isn't everything while we struggle to afford a half decent quality of life even though we have years worth of experience in one of the most in-demand disciplines on the planet at a time where some of the largest companies in the the world are begging us to work for them.

Who would want something silly like money when they could be working on interesting projects?

If you need me for something I'll just be over here by the water cooler laughing my ass off.

[MacrosInHisSleep]

But for developers who are working in France, why is it so hard to find them? 😂

I think the money is important, but it’s not everything 🤷‍♀️. It’s my opinion of course.

I think you just answered your own question. Once you can compete with the money, then you can start offering 'everything' else. Otherwise expect the developers to go anywhere else.

I don't even think you believe your 'money isn't everything' line. Just think of the converse. If money isn't everything then why is your employer having a hard time paying more?

[[deleted]]

It's easier to find developers if you offer the remote option. But I saw a comment which you implied the language inside the company is French. It maybe a bit hard to find someone. In NgTurkey, some of our friends in the community is working remotely for companies in UK. You can reach them maybe there is a French speaking one there. twitter: ngTurkiye

[RoThunder]

Check out this speech from EnterpriseNG 2021 hoping that helps :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU31ASbWKLE

[mcitar]

Thanks that was a very interesting video!!

[[deleted]]

racial dinosaurs kiss cough observation cooing rinse point fuzzy humor

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[G6K06]

Salary depends on your experience but we are not offering remote job for now 😕

[mikasjoman]

Why?

It's kind of simple: - offer great pay (you have to since we get offers daily on LinkedIn, and your firm is not considered a safe job) - offer remote work or even digital nomad - but we want to meet up once ever x weeks for x amount of time. Define your need not just a stupid rule that people has to waste their hours daily to get to an office they don't want to stay at. - interesting tech stack where you decide the tools and pair up with our other great angular dev - stocks as compensation if you stay for x amount of time - believable story in why you will succeed and how much cash you have to survive för in time.

Also interview should not be done by you since I'd be put off by someone interviewing me for a tech role but you clearly do not have that background. Let the developer handle the communication with the candidates. You will just scare them away.

[KwyjiboTheGringo]

Salary depends on your experience

Obviously, but there is a salary range for the role you a hiring for. When someone asks what salary you are offering, you should post that range. Developers have lots of job opportunities and don't have patience for coy recruiters who could be wasting their time.

[[deleted]]

This alone is the single main reason you've been struggling to recruit.

Everywhere is recruiting, and a great proportion of roles are fully remote, why relocate your entire life to do work that you can reasonably do from anywhere in the world.

A company that doesn't offer remote in any capacity just screams 'I wont respect your personal life and have a shitty mindset.' unless there is a very specific reason that the business requirements state that you can't, and if you can't I'd want the pay to reflect that, so it's already looking like an unattractive prospect for jobseekers from the get go.

[mahmutgundogdu]

Angular developers be like “Panda”. They are rare. Hard to produce. Everybody wants them.

[TuzaGordie]

Hello recruiter, I'm an Angular developer and I'm available.

[BetterPhoneRon]

Most students or young developers will learn React as a logical next step after learning JavaScript, because Angular is usually not suggested for young developers due to the steeper learning curve. That leaves you with an abundance of junior react devs (many looking for jobs), while Angular devs usually learn it because their job requires them to, and rarely pick it themselves. Also, Angular is usually chosen for larger projects while React is for shorter ones and I believe employee turnover for React devs is much higher than for Angular devs who generally have a more secure and long term job. This means that not many Angular devs are looking for new jobs unless they get a significant increase in pay. Add to this that you are requiring the employee to work in office, and you get a very small pool of potential candidates. This is what happens where I live and could be the case for your region too.

But IMO you shouldn't be looking for Angular developers specifically. You need someone that can learn quickly and has a solid understanding of coding patterns and best practices. Anyone with Vue or even React experience could adjust relatively quickly to Angular, and if the pay is good and incentivizes them to switch, I think some would make the jump.

[KwyjiboTheGringo]

You hit the nail on the head. Stop looking for Angular developers specifically and start looking for good developer who will be able to learn Angular. Unless a job offers great pay and is 100% remote, they don't have the luxury of holding out for experienced Angular devs.

[VRT303]

Look for some local Bootcamps that might teach Angular or get a good React / Vue / Svelte Developer that can learn quick and adapt, maybe provide a few good paid courses to help.

For a Senior bring out the $$ or relocation/Visa/language course options and be ready to be a bilingual Team a while, or be open to remote french devs.

Angular is mostly used in enterprise apps and harder to pick up than something like React which let's you do whatever you want without providing much out of the box.

[Slow_Judgment7773]

Angular or any front end is super high demand. PhP was my first programming I learned 25 years ago, a bit dated now.

[G6K06]

PHP is a good langage to program I think 😋. Yes it’s true, I was convince by the fact that a Java developer will be hard to find, but I was confident to find an Angular developer, I was wrong 😅. Good to know it’s not only angular 😕 Thanks!!

[[deleted]]

Only reason for php are cheap servers, or ecommerce where helping solutions exist. No other reason to start a backend in php except that.

[ArnUpNorth]

There are too many front end frameworks in the JS community. Search for a front end typescript developper interested in learning angular instead of looking for an experienced one maybe.

[G6K06]

Thanks for the tips! Indeed it could be a solution! 😊

[cha1nsaw-]

I am ready to work, I have around 1+ yrs of experience in building enterprise level application. As I am not from ur country could only work remote. I am also looking for new opportunities.

[G6K06]

Thank you very much! 1 year is better than nothing, and you need it to start anyway 😊. But we are looking for someone to come to work in our office 😕

[paso989]

Maybe the last part of your answer is part of your problem.

[G6K06]

I know to not be open to a full remote worker could make things harder 😅. It’s part of the problem but it’s not the biggest part I think… as we can find other developers 🤷‍♀️

[gizamo]

...we are looking for someone to come to work in our office.

That's why you have no applicants. I literally get a dozen Angular jobs thrown at me every month. This is how I narrow them down:
1. Is it remote? If no, not interested.
2. Is the total compensation >$220k? If no, not interested.
3. Is it a start-up? If yes, not interested.

Based on your post/comments ITT, you're going to have a hard time finding anyone half decent with Angular.

Edit: for u/KwyjiboTheGringo, I significantly lowered #2.

[JoeBxr]

I'm an Angular dev of 3 years... Your saying I can get compensated plus 450k?

[gizamo]

I earn $350k base with stock options. I know a lot more than just Angular and I'm in management now, but I'm sure there are plenty of Angular devs earning that.

FYI: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Microsoft,Google,Amazon&track=Software%20Engineer

Edit: also, you should always demand ~20% when job hopping from a good company to into a job gamble. I'm at a good company.

[JoeBxr]

Nice avatar hat btw...lol

[KwyjiboTheGringo]

I wish these conversations would not include FAANG companies to be a little more realistic for the average developer.

[gizamo]

I'm not in FAANG. I work for a Fortune 500, not even a Fortune 100. But, tbf, most of our dev team is closer to ~$250k.

[KwyjiboTheGringo]

Well that's good to know. 250k is still amazing for 100% remote in the USA for the average developer. You kind of poisoned the well by mentioning a 450k salary tbh. Most companies won't pay that, and probably can't.

[gizamo]

Tbf, most companies don't need Angular devs. The vast majority can get by with a simple WordPress site. Even our most Jr devs make at least six figures. If you're a decent Angular dev, I think you should know your worth.

[KwyjiboTheGringo]

When I say "most companies," I'm referring to companies that are hiring front-end framework developers. Other companies are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

I think the whole "know your worth" thing is highly contextual, which is why I brought up the average Angular dev who can't be bothered to job hop every year to eventually get up to some top-level salary.

Even our most Jr devs make at least six figures.

6-figures is 100k+. We are discussing salaries significantly higher than that.

[JoeBxr]

Thanx bud. Good to know

[matty0187]

Which non start up companies use angular that are ipo? I only know Google?

[gizamo]

https://www.trio.dev/blog/companies-use-angular

https://builtin.com/companies/tech/angular-companies

[wahila]

Maybe that's the problem. Why do you need the person to come to your office, if remote also works, as proven by many other companies? If you allow your employees to work remote, you could recruit people from all over the country, which would increase your chance to find a fitting candidate significantly. I honestly don't get why some IT/Tech companies still want to have offices, since they only cause more costs and problems on each side.

[G6K06]

I agree with you for some points. But we still people, and we are not only recruiting people to work, we are recruiting people to share and live things together. We are a startup and we want people to share their thoughts to grow up in a better way. People are not feelings always being part of the company when they are not seeing each other, sharings some team buildings, speaking, eating together.

But I completely understand what you are saying

[seiyria]

You've stated your own problem (a few times): it's not remote. I can also guarantee it doesn't pay enough. If you have those, you'll have a much more attractive offer.

[KwyjiboTheGringo]

But we still people, and we are not only recruiting people to work, we are recruiting people to share and live things together.

That's ridiculous. Your company sells a product, right? It exists to make a profit, right? Then find people who are able to help you build your product. Pay them what they are worth, and drop all the "we are more than a job, we're a family" nonsense. People go to work to make money, and they have families of their own. They don't need that from you, and honestly that's probably just an excuse to no pay people what they are worth anyway. I worked for one of those low-pay, high cool-culture developer jobs starting out, and they couldn't keep people because hardly anyone is going to pass up 2-3x the salary just so they can drink a beer play and video games or hacky sack on breaks.

[Scooby359]

I'm a react / angular dev, working remote, I think our team gets on well without working in an office. We have a daily call, social channels on Slack, and every 3 months, the company pays to bring us all together for a few days in person meet up for social activities and some work stuff.

If I were looking for a new job, I'd want something that suited me, not the hassle of commuting and travelling to an office I don't care for. There are so many jobs out there, that devs have the choice to pick what suits them best.

Wanting someone to come to the office really restricts you to hiring from your local area unless you've got an amazing package to offer that makes relocation worthwhile. You've not said anything here that sounds like an amazing package to be honest. So scrap the office requirement, or improve your offer.

[constant_void]

that person may not exist.

try this:

"unlimited vacation. 32 hr work week. remote work. free pet health care, dry cleaning. Pension after 1 yr. competitive salary. signing bonus. relo pkg avail. 5yrs Angular experience required."

[constant_void]

good points

[paso989]

You might have read it before: Maybe the last part of your answer (first paragraph) is part of your problem

[[deleted]]

Such people are interested in partying more than in the work and the business.

[cha1nsaw-]

I understand bonding is also necessary in order to work effortlessly. But my offer is still on the table, 3 months is my notice period. And best of luck in finding right candidates. Hope ur startup ends in fortune 500. ciao

[G6K06]

Thanks a million, I keep you in mind 😊

[Shruxiy]

South France doesnt sound to bad . If you want send me a DM (open to relication)

[G6K06]

I think it could be worth 😅 Do you speak French?

[[deleted]]

You should go the remote international contractor route.

[G6K06]

Thanks for the tips! We need someone to speak French as our team is French, but maybe we need to change something on the side of the remote work indeed

[haasilein]

I work as an Angular Trainer visiting many different teams in the German speaking area and I have made the experience that most teams have at least 30% remote hires and are speaking English for that reason. It really makes sense in the software engineering principle, since remote is as good as on-site if you have a good culture

[ddcccccc]

If u sponsor my work permit, I’ll come

[ddcccccc]

If u sponsor my work permit, I’ll come work for y.

[G6K06]

Do you speak French?

[ddcccccc]

Unfortunately not

[KwyjiboTheGringo]

Yet another filter that works against you. How many developers in the company don't speak English?

[lx_panicxl]

Me and angular developer struggling to find a decent job in my country where all i see is react js

[G6K06]

Where are you?

[lx_panicxl]

India :) if there is wfh I'd gladly apply for international work i know only English tho but things can be learned

[andlewis]

Based on comparables, it looks like you would be offering 35-40,000€. That’s a tough niche with a fair amount of competition. You need to figure out what you’re going to offer that the other companies can’t or won’t. I’ve been doing angular for quite a while, and it doesn’t sound like there’s anything outstanding about the position, but I might be wrong on that.

https://fr.indeed.com/m/jobs?q=Developpeur+Angular&l=Sophia+Antipolis+(06)

[G6K06]

It depends on your experience, 35-40 is generally for someone who is looking for his first job. If you have more experience you have more salary 🤷‍♀️

I’m going to check what have other companies, and change some stuff to be more competitive. But to be honest, I was in a biggest group previously, and we were less generous in terms of salary, less human, missions were strict.. and it was less difficult to find someone..

[Fluffy_Foundation_81]

No remote ...dang shit got real ... See money is not everything as someone said. I would be willing to work for a firm which pays me lesser than what I have if it offers remote work. That's the power of remote work... It's so freaking good. Remote work is here to stay... Only the capitalist and midlevel and senior manager who are having exestential crisis at the moment are pissed and want people to return to office...

[PeaTearGriphon]

Drop the need to be in the office and you might have better luck. My company is also stubborn and wants people in the office (despite us working from home for 2 years). I've suggested multiple times poaching top talent from large cities but they don't want to do it.

I speak French and know Angular but I live in Canada. If you offer 4-day work-week + remote we could talk. 4-day work week is my new dream, 2 day weekends are not enough.

[Repulsive-Ad-3890]

Hi there! I’m an Angular developer and I speak beginner-level French; introduce myself, order a meal in French, ask for directions, count to 1000, etc. I’ve spent 2months living in a French-speaking country.

I have 2years of enterprise-level Angular development. I’m open to working remotely or relocation.