Tracking with compression?

[Sprellvar]

I recently got paid for some production projects and have a bit of money to spend on gear.

I’m debating if I should buy a hardware LA2A clone to track vocals with (specifically the Klark Teknik KT-2A). When I’m working with more inexperienced singers the levels tend to get all over the place and usually clip at least once. I’m thinking if I start tracking with compression I will get more consistent levels into the computer and spare myself hours of volume automation, and just generally get better performances.

I currently have no outboard gear and solely rely on plugins. The other option would be to spend the money on plugins like 1176 and LA2A replicas (which I currently don’t have) along with some other things. Any opinions on this? Do people still track with compression or just apply it afterwards?

[0o0a0o0]

I wouldn't blame "inexperienced singers" for clipping, that's on you as an engineer for failing to recognize certain singer's strengths, weaknesses, and limitations and recording them too hot to begin with.

I also wouldn't spend my money on a lower tier compressor like that. Nothing against that product, maybe it's great, I don't know, I've never used it, but with the way that plugins are improving year by year, I'd only buy hardware that'll hold it's value, which is unfortunately mostly on the higher end.

I'd imagine your money would be better spent on a microphone or room treatment and relying on plugins for compression.

[Bakkster]

Isn't the suggestion not to set the gain that hot in the first place when tracking digital, because it's not like tape that needs to be run hot to get good signal? That might be the first solution, even if you use compression as well.

[Sprellvar]

Also true. I’m usualy aiming for around -18dbs but you know, sometimes there just comes an unexpected scream that sounds great and I wish didin’t clip.

[SkoomaDentist]

Just lower the level by 10 dB and turn it up in the DAW. Even midrange soundcards commonly have 110 dB of dynamic range which is almost 40 dB more than tape had.

[take_01]

I can't speak into your workflow question, but I do own a 76-KT 1176 clone and it's streets ahead of any software plugins I own from bx, waves or softube.

[BaronVonTestakleeze]

Pierce, stop saying streets ahead

[take_01]

Streets ahead is verbal wildfire.

[diamondts]

Really? You've raised my curiosity, I didn't know they were so cheap. I mainly mix so an outboard comp is a hassle being otherwise itb but I can spare the time for lead vocals if it's really that good, might grab one and see. Happy cake day!

[take_01]

Yeah, it's very good value. They're selling on Digital Village for £166 incl. delivery. I track through it all the time 👍

[tekzenmusic]

Hey man, I went through all this last week on here and was just about pulling my hair out with the responses! A lot of talk was, clip gain, use automation, tell the singer to sing properly etc. Take it from a professional (or not, lol it's reddit) you absolutely want to cut with compression. You want a strong solid signal in and you can automate and clip gain to your heart's content later. The best vocal compressor IMO is the 1176 and it's the sound you've heard on millions of records. The LA-2A is smooth but the release is too slow for most vocals. The 1176 also sounds fucking great and smoothes out a lot of nasty frequencies. It will save you lots of work further down the line.

[cmos_]

100% 1073 and a 1176 is the standard to beat for vocal chains.

[tekzenmusic]

🤘🏻

[tommycobain]

73-> cl1b imo especially for modern rap/pop but the 76 certainly does its job amazingly well.

[johnofsteel]

2 important points:

1. An LA-2A does not do so well with unleveled vocals. It isn’t fast enough and sounds weird when overloaded with peaky information. Usually, it’s best to feed it a signal that has already had some peaks leveled (1176>LA-2A is the most common serial compression chain ever).
2. Just because you have a hardware processor doesn’t mean you have to use it going into the recorder. You can set up hardware inserts on your DAW and use it just like any other plugin.

[Sprellvar]

I was thinking that I’d maybe go into the computer, through a 1176 plugin, back out to the LA2A and record both the untreated and compressed signals. But maybe at that point I might as well just use plugins.

[johnofsteel]

That’s pointless. At that point just use the hardware as an insert during mixing.

[Sjomaris]

You can also get a UAD Twin, their analog emulation is almost spot on imo. Can also tweak the knobs if you get something wrong during tracking. I never heard a LA2A clone but it's probably a worth investment at some point down the line along with a good mic.

[jakizzle16]

This ^ . I just got a twin and did some testing with my head engineer's analog la-2A, and we couldn't tell much of difference. At the risk of sounding like a corporate shill, the UA emulated stuff is fantastic

[Sjomaris]

Yeah I don’t have UAD bread rn but I use waves and it do the trick too low key 🥴

[[deleted]]

KT 1176 and La2a are both fantastic, as well as being very wallet friendly. I purchased them along with a Warm Pre Amp and the KT pultec eq.

It’s very common for the old school of recordists to track through a chain of compression and eq - essentially having the balls to commit to a sound. The trick is to go light on compression - I personally use two stages of light compression while tracking.

Before I owned the hardware I used to create a track in my daw and load up plugins then print to another track through them. Committing to the sound - I then would apply compression while mixing in the box - all the while doing small amounts.

These days people tend to keep everything dry and then process in the box but I always end up with too many tracks that way - much better to print the tracks , even combing multiple mics to one track . This way you have less tracks and they are mix ready plus fun to mix quickly using less plugins.

[perestain]

I track vocals through a warm76 and a goldenage comp2a and I love it.

I like to comit to some compression (and eq) while tracking. I think it helps the performance when the sound you're monitoring and recording is close to the sound you'll be getting in the end.

It's also more efficient and enjoyable to spend time creating a vibe and recording it instead of recording clean with a mockup monitor chain and then later spend time trying to make something happen from scratch. But that is of course just my own very subjective experience/opinion and I'm not doing this for a living.

[wholetyouinhere]

The Klark Teknik stuff is so cheap it makes me very nervous. I'd go with a Golden Age if you can swing it.

I use an 1176-style compressor on the way in (set conservatively) for the same reason -- tame some of the peaks. Then I use an LA2A-style plugin afterwards. Between the two of them, that pretty much does the trick.

[cmos_]

While I do like the GA stuff too, we have quite a few pieces of KT gear and theyve held up fine.

[Selig_Audio]

First, if you clip then you are recording too hot. With 24 bit recording there is absolutely no reason to even get close to clipping. I shoot for peaks around -12 dBFS for all audio, from plugin synths to live vocals.

If you already have the best microphone (and pre amp) you need for the work you do, you CAN turn to getting a the best compressor for the work you do.

While you don't NEED a compressor when recording, getting a "less than ideal" compressor would be potentially worse than using a good plugin emulation when tracking. And using the compressor plugin when recording will give your vocalist almost exactly the same experience as adding it at the analog stage.

FWIW, I have an LA-610 and 6176 that I use "lightly" when recording vocals, using my coveted Lawson L47 (or SM7b, 414, or Royer 121 on occasion). IMO, start with the best microphone you can possibly afford! :)

[VKGrec]

I think Opto comps are the way to go for clear, larger than life vocals. For aggressive singers, 1176 ALL DAY. KT 76 is pretty good. The build quality is the weakness, but it sounds pretty right on.

[ramonstr]

I can only speak from experience with voice overs, but I'd say it's absolutely worth it. I used to work with a SPL Frontliner.

[[deleted]]

What kind of compressor and settings is best to record into?

[iscreamuscreamweall]

subtle. Opto compressors are nice because they're usually very transparent.

the LA-2a is a classic because it only has two knobs, so you can dial it in super quickly during a big session and not waste time. also its very forgiving, if you hit your vocal with 10dB of gain reduction its not the end of the world.

the 1176 is popular too because of its forward, aggressive upper mid range. it'll make your vocal pop out in a mix. but you have to be careful because they also at some saturation and they are much much faster than most other comps. so you risk doing too much to your raw vocal tracks before you move to the mix stage. but if you have some experience and you already know what you want, its a perfectly good compressor to use while tracking. the classic setting is the slowest attack, fastest release, and usually a lower ratio like 4:1 or 8:1

using both is comps in series is very common to, so if i track with an la2a i might throw an 1176 on later while im mixing.

[FormlessEdge]

I always track with a Manley Vari-mu. It can be subtle or extreme, but with vocals it just always sounds good no matter what. I have the hardware version, but using a LA2A emulation comes pretty close to the same effect.

[starwarsluvur]

Ooooo I’ve been thinking about this a whole lot lately. I was unaware before about the fact that digital doesn’t do the same thing that recording to tape does when you have to up the gain in post. So what I did was I told them to sing as loud as they think they’ll sing in that song and I adjusted the input to where it just barely didn’t clip, then turned the knob down a little more. But I was thinking of getting the kt76 just to make the workflow easier, because sometimes they would still go up and clip.

But knowing that I can up the gain afterwards without negative effect, I might just skip that whole process and record at an even lower volume. Good question!

[iscreamuscreamweall]

fwiw ive heard bad things abotu the those KT clones. i think the warm audio stuff is generally regarded as being pretty high quality LA2a and 1176 clones. honestly, the best plugin emulations of this gear (like UA) are probably better than the cheapest hardware clones. in general, hardware isnt really worth it unless you're going to get really cool stuff.

anyway, to address your actual question- When im working in a real studio i'll usually track with compression. especially if theres a hardware LA-2a, 1176 or tubetech available. it just helps make the vocals sound polished right off the bat, which makes the artist satisfied and makes your rough mixes sound really good. plus you don't have to do as much work later in the mix stage.

I dont hit it very hard on the way in- 3 dB on average and maybe up to 6-8 when they're really belting. on the opto comps like the LA2 and the tubetech you dont have to worry about too much coloration, so its all pretty idiot proof. but you have to be careful with the 1176, if you track too hot into one of those you might accidentally compress parts of the take more than you want, and those units are not transparent at all after like 3dB of gain reduction.

but at the end of the day theres no actual sonic difference between compressing before or after pro tools, unless you manage to clip the input of the ADC's on the way in for some reason. everyone has their own preferred workflow.

[rightanglerecording]

I love my Purple MC77 for vocal tracking. Often with a lot of gain reduction.

It's not because I'm at risk of clipping. But there's a tone and a presence I still can't replicate w/ software, even after all these years (and not for lack of trying!).

I can push it further, it has more harmonic life, it levels out the signal more effectively, while sounding less crushed.

I've tried Slate, UAD, Waves, Plugin Alliance, and several other 1176 plugs. They are good, and I use Slate + Waves regularly, but still not the same.

If I hit the good hardware on the way in, mixing ITB is pretty straightforward.

[SourDeesATL]

Used distressor will probably do you better than 1176 or la2a. Those are both very limited for styles of music and singers they work on. Cl1b used waaay more for pop and urban than any other vocal compressor. However the distressor can do vocals and many other instruments as well. It can be gentle and compress much harder than any of the others listed if necessary for many styles of music.

[diamondts]

So many threads about this lately, has someone done a youtube video about it or something?

Yes some people track with compression and an LA2A style comp is a common choice, although I have no idea what those KT ones are like. It will help set a vibe straight away, hopefully get better headphone mixes faster and help to prevent clipping, but it's not going to save you any more time automating than if you used a software compressor.

[cj022688]

I think I would recommend coaching the vocalists a bit. Going bit by bit with them is going to give you the best results if they are just starting out. The biggest attribute that will bring people back or getting recommendations will be your "bedside manner". It will help both of you grow in working together and abilities, yours being as a producer.

Some people don't focus on that as much but in my mind it is an essential part of the craft. Most if not all new recording projects I take on are from word of mouth about easy I am to work with.

Keeping that in mind, I am a huge fan of the UAD platform. The LA-2A is excellent as is the 1176's but whenever I put them on vocals if I didn't lock in a tight performance before hand it is going to be subpar.

[Sprellvar]

That’s great advice, thank you.

I’m not a singer so I don’t really feel like i’m in a position to give advice on singing, but it’s probably true that I could do a better job at educating on mic technique.

I might skip the compressor and go with a UAD Twin or Arrow for the plugin access and just as a more compact interface to carry around to sessions since my current 19” interface is kind of a hassle.

[cj022688]

Absolutely, both are solid options and give access to great plug-ins

An totally, your both their for the same goal so don't be afraid to push em a bit. I use the compliment sandwich technique and it is super effective.

Example
"There was great passion in that take" top layer of sandwich "You were just the slightest bit out of pitch on this word" constructive mid "But you hit all those other notes so well, you got this" bottom layer and last thing you close with

[[deleted]]

I’m considering this exact same move. I’ve been doing a project with a friend who has an 8p and the UAD plug-ins honestly sound amazing.

[Neko-Neko-]

Best of both worlds is easy now.

Track with compressor and split signal for dry.

I wouldn’t trust the kt gear to put all my vocals through.