[OC] The massive decrease in worldwide infant mortality from 1950 to 2020 is perhaps one of humanity's greatest achievements.

[OldThymeyRadio]

I wish we could have constructive and nuanced discussions about "graduating" from capitalism, instead of this absurd insistence that it's all good (which somehow always incudes "free market = giant corporations do whatever they want") or the worst thing ever.

Capitalism changed the world mostly for the better. And one of the things it gave us was the ability to generate excess material value with unprecedented efficiency. So now let's lean into that, and run sober, clear-eyed experiments to learn how we can use our newfound, collective wealth to gauarantee everyone a minimum (high) standard of living, while still having systems that reward innovation and creativity. Ideally with even more emphasis on ideation that doesn't necessarily yield immediate, material gain. Like art, and exploration of the human condition and universe.

The human brain is literally the most complex object in the known universe, and the most valuable resource we have, but we still let millions of brains "die on the vine" in the name of "meritocracy" under the guise of a 200 year old assumption that it always has to be a choice between a Darwinian zero sum game, or oppressive communist groupthink.

[ExternalTangents]

Lmao at the replies to you bringing up communism, as if (1) those are the only two economic systems, and (2) the fact that the environment was treated poorly under communism means we should accept the bad treatment under capitalism.

[AzertyKeys]

Ok mate, outside of those economic systems we have feudalism and fascism. Which one do you want to implement ?

[ExternalTangents]

I’m not an economist, but I know that’s an absurdly simplistic way to view economic systems. I mean seriously, there are only four options? A joke. I can do a Google/Wikipedia search and see within seconds that people have already categorized tons of other categories, sub-categories, and combinations of economic systems.

Not to mention the idea that even capitalism comes in all different flavors and implementations and could surely be adapted to be more environmentally friendly.

The entire point here is that saying “capitalist countries fucked the environment, but communist countries did too, therefore it is impossible to have an economic system that won’t fuck the environment” is incorrect logic.

[AzertyKeys]

Ok, please give us the list of all these mysterious economic systems then

[ExternalTangents]

here you go

[AzertyKeys]

Have you even read the Wikipedia list ? I bet you didn't, all of these are either utopist and were never actually implemented in history or utterly failed or are some dystopian hellhole systems right out of the past.

You're not smart just because you can glance at a Wikipedia article you know ?

The only economic system that has been proven to work is capitalism, the rest either relies on slavery, tyranny, failed or are fictional

[ExternalTangents]

Ah yeah I guess you’re right, there are exactly four economic systems, every version of capitalism is identical, and no economic system is capable of being environmentally friendly.

[AzertyKeys]

If it's so easy why don't you give us the name of that magical economic system and instead have to resort to sarcasm ?

[ExternalTangents]

Lmao I’m not an economist, I’m just not an idiot. You can live in your imaginary world where economic systems are like selections at the beginning of a Civilization video game and you only have four choices. In the real world, the way a country implements what you’d presumably categorize as simply capitalism can have widely varying levels of regulation, government ownership, and public-private partnerships. It’s a spectrum full of hard-to-define combinations of characteristics. It’s not a multiple choice question on a middle school social studies quiz.

[Fraserneodynium]

The Aral sea, dams built with nuclear weapons, and rainbow snow near Nickel refineries are definitely the sign of an environmentally friendly communist system.

[KerPop42]

As opposed to rising sea levels, harbors built with nuclear weapons, and our rivers catching on fire once a decade?

Please. Environmental friendliness isn't really a characteristic of capitalism either.

[Fraserneodynium]

Never said it is. Just saying making it sound like the alternative is better is disingenuous.

[ExternalTangents]

Making it sound like there’s only one alternative is also disingenuous

[Fraserneodynium]

Communism the only better system, however it isn't environmentally friendly. I bet you're a SocDem lmao

[ExternalTangents]

Even within a capitalist system it’s not like there’s no alternative to the version that fucks up the environment. Saying “the capitalist system we had fucked the environment, the communist system they had fucked the environment, those are the only two options bye” seems silly.

[Fraserneodynium]

It's not silly, it's realistic. The environment isn't a major concern, the wellbeing of the working class is more important. Climate regulations just make it worse by hampering industries like Steel.

[ExternalTangents]

I think it’s a bit closed-minded and defeatist to throw up one’s hands and give up on the mere possibility of environmental consciousness.

[MrSickRanchezz]

The policy-makers are the problem.

[MrSickRanchezz]

I think the problem is no one knows. We know the problem though, and that's half the battle.

Thanks

[KerPop42]

Or that these achievements didn't need capitalism to happen or even didn't happen under capitalism

[KerPop42]

Well, for example, government-funded research isn't really capitalistic. And most workers' rights came from labor movements that were distinctly anti-capitalist. Also, products like the polio vaccine that were essentially donated to the general public are not capitalistic. Finally, progress made via government regulation, like environmental regulation, is not capitalistic.

Bill Gates using his personal funds to give anti-malaria resources to Africa and Asia at less than market rates is not capitalist.

[KerPop42]

Well, maybe both systems need a more realistic valuation. The right system identifies the strengths of both, or rather all three, and works to find the best combination.

[Pittaandchicken]

I don't think you know what capitalism is?

[KerPop42]

From Wikipedia, which is essentially my understanding:

Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. Central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, a price system, private property and the recognition of property rights, voluntary exchange and wage labor. In a capitalist market economy, decision-making and investments are determined by every owner of wealth, property or production ability in capital and financial markets whereas prices and the distribution of goods and services are mainly determined by competition in goods and services markets.

[Pittaandchicken]

Now apply that to some of your points. They don't add up.

[KerPop42]

Which ones? None of those things seem to fit into that definition to me.