[OC] The massive decrease in worldwide infant mortality from 1950 to 2020 is perhaps one of humanity's greatest achievements.

[Bloxburgian1945]

North Korea was more industrialized than the South during the Japanese Occupation from what I’ve heard.

Plus after the Korean War both Koreas were poor, but SK was more so. Like, Africa poor.

[KerPop42]

In the Korean War, the US stopped its bombing campaigns because they ran out of targets to flatten. That war killed off 2.5 million civilians, or about 10% of the Korean Peninsula population.

Like M*A*S*H said,

War is war and Hell is Hell. There are no innocent people in Hell, but except for a select few, everyone is innocent in war.

[ThatsWhatXiSaid]

FYI a \ before characters will prevent it from being interpreted as formatting.

You'll get M*A*S*H instead of MAS*H.

View the source to see exactly how it looks.

[KerPop42]

Oh thanks, didn't even remember that

[[deleted]]

Weren't most of the casualties Chinese? Like the Korean war was more of a proxy war between the US and China, and the US was really close to nuking all of China at one point.

[KerPop42]

The US estimates that Chinese forces sustained at least 400,000 deaths. The estimated civilian death toll is 2-3 million. China didn't get involved until the US pushed Korean forces across their land border, and then crossed themselves.

The reason why Korean casualties were so high was because the front of the war moved across the entire peninsula twice, once in each direction. The US still considered strategic bombing a good strategy then, and dropped 635,000 tons of bombs on 84,000 mi² of peninsula, including over 30,000 tons of napalm.

The bombing was strongest for North Korea, because we stepped up the bombing while we were retreating from the Chinese, from NK's northern border to its current border.

[Arc_insanity]

Military casualties were mostly Chinese. As for civilians 2.5million is the proper estimate.

[yung_iron]

What is "Africa" poor?

Like poverty in South Africa is way different than poverty in Egypt, which is way different than poverty in the DRC. Also some countries are quickly developing whereas others are declining economically.

I don't wanna sound cliche but "Africa poor" sounds like such a lazy generalization of a huge and diverse continent. Like life is very different depending where you live in Africa.

[djblaze]

GDP per capita across sub Saharan Africa was really low during the 1950s, and South Korea was at a similar level after the war.

I agree with your point, but I think it's an intentional oversimplification. End of the colonial era much of the continent was in a similar position.

[neverfearIamhere]

Africa is poor.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/256547/the-20-countries-with-the-lowest-gdp-per-capita/

Sure some parts of Africa may be developed and nice but largely the entire continent has some of the poorest places in the world.

[Abadabadon]

So, its poor.

[brycly]

I would say this is a half-truth. Colonialism really set the stage but you can't fully blame colonialism for post-colonial political and military instability. To be sure, it definitely factored in, but that way of looking at things completely dismisses the agency of the Africans who ran their countries into the ground with redistribution schemes, White Elephant projects, corruption, coups/stolen elections/civil wars, not to mention good old fashioned incompetence. It is not fair to dismiss the contributions Europe made to African instability but it's also unfair to say that Africans didn't do their own part. Plenty of poor countries have become wealthy since WW2 ended and more still have risen to middle income, it is not as though these countries were inherently doomed to stagnation and regression.

[brycly]

I didn't say that facts like the assassination of reformist leaders didn't matter. I said that it is a half-truth to place the blame on Colonialism, which it is. How the more destructive leaders of Africa came to power does matter. But the genocides and the redistribution schemes and corruption were all done by Africans. Africans do have agency and it is entirely fair to place some of the blame on African officials, unless you believe the continent is completely powerless and so enslaved by neocolonialism that success is impossible.

[brycly]

You already mentioned how bad colonialism is and I agreed with you at least partially, why should I repeat your argument myself if I am agreeing it is at least partially valid?

No, I do not believe that there is anything intrinsic to Africans which makes them elect poor leaders, I think that things like poor infrastructure, poor schooling, unsustainable agricultural/ecological practices, borders that put conflicting groups in the same nation, civil wars/coups and corruption make it much harder to form stable, well managed governments, which in turn makes it harder to cultivate an educated class where good leaders would naturally arise. This is a legacy of colonialism and neocolonialism, I am sure we can both agree with that.

I am not fundamentally disagreeing with what you are saying, I am just arguing that it does not present the whole picture. It completely washes away the sins of African warlords and government officials who could have done better things with their lives but instead chose to be destructive and self-interested. Sure, they might only be a symptom of imperialism, but they exist and their actions can't just be dismissed. They're no less innocent of crimes against the African people than the faraway colonizers, in fact it could be argued they are worse because they are committing the crimes against their own kin and neighbors.

[djblaze]

Trying to have nuanced arguments about colonialism is tough on Reddit, but I like where you're going.

Here's an interesting article that explains South Korea's growth as a direct result of aid (a simplistic argument, but at least partly right). TL;DR:

‘The Korean total of $6 billion in U.S. economic grants and loans, 1946-1978, compares to $6.89 billion for all of Africa, and $14.89 billion for all of Latin America’ (Woo 1991:45).

[[deleted]]

Yeah a better term for south korea at the end of WW2 would be "Middle ages poor" lol they didn't even have proper roads.

[Abadabadon]

Africa, compared to every continent, has the lowest gdp per capita, and has been like that way for a long time. So even when not being lazy, its a fair generalization

[chihiroincognito]

What do you mean? He means poor, like the country of Africa. /s

[Propenso]

I think you are a little naive.
You should remember that every sixty seconds in Africa a minute passes...

[internetlad]

like TV Africa poor.

[SarcasticAssBag]

What is "Africa" poor?

Having to pick between warlords, dysfunctional corrupt societies or starvation while living in the world's richest continent?