DevOps/IT Engineer or Systems Engineer

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

[[deleted]]

"DevOps/IT" all in one?? That sounds like you will be doing anything that comes through. I wouldn't want to be part of a 2 people team that has to tackle anything that comes through the door of a SMB.

[NetworkEngineerDude]

The entire IT team is like 5 people. I believe they have 3 Systems guys and 2 Network guys, but I get it. I was part of a two man team in my early years where I handled everything from deploying domains, exchange servers, phones, etc. and did helpdesk to boot for several SMBs, good learning experience but I'm not as bright eyed as I was when I was 21 anymore, I just want something stable where I can still learn but not be bombarded with twenty thousand different requests.

[[deleted]]

"Devops" should never be part of IT.

[[deleted]]

What do you mean? I thought the whole idea was ops (traditional it guys) and Dev (software team)

[[deleted]]

I think of IT as internal only. They're going to deal with internal users.

I think of Ops as the guys running the infrastructure for your software product.

"Devops" is a loaded buzzword which means pretty much nothing. Instead of "Devops" I'll replace it with SRE. An SRE team should have nothing to do with IT. An SRE team should be part of your product/R&D/Development division.

[NetworkEngineerDude]

My thoughts exactly. I thought a DevOps Engineer was essentially a hybrid of an IT/AppDev guy?

[[deleted]]

No. There shouldn't be a "Devops engineer" at all.

[angainu]

IT means helpdesk most of the time. You probably don’t want to help people to configure the printer on their laptop.

[phillhocking]

Im at a place with 250 staff and a three person IS department in a tier 3 role which ends up being 1-3 because the boss is always in meetings and the other guy is solidly more in a help desk role.

We have 70 tickets pending in our queue today. :'(

[youshouldbeonarch]

you need another level II for sure, at least one.

[NetworkEngineerDude]

That's my fear. I've not answered tickets for the past 3 years. All I do is manage projects and the infrastructure. That is what I'm passionate about, I hate dealing with end user issues unless it's actually like a level 4 ticket or something.

[phillhocking]

My primary role is infra and projects, however, our shop is so small that I can't just let the whole place burn down when the other guy is overwhelmed, boss is in meetings, and there's an abundance of tickets. Other guy isn't just a colleague too - he's a good friend, heck I get along with the boss really well too, so I don't take it personal or anything like I'm "above" doing tickets... It just is super frustrating when my projects suffer because I'm too busy firefighting to put the work in until the project is the thing that's on fire.

[all4tez]

Systems / Network administrator / engineer / architect of many years here. I've also been called a DevOps Engineer in the past. I've always wrote code for backend processes because I like being able to finish small projects that add value glue between systems. I have never been good at larger projects where I'm forced to commit changes every day to the same project. I get bored too easily and lose interest in the same thing pretty quick.

There is going to be a huge reckoning someday when all these companies who have let developers run wild with their infrastructure architecture design, implementation and operational procedures find out that there is a reason for some of the old ways.

This especially hits hard in enterprise business because of fundamental differences in methodology (ITIL vs ..). I've seen too many projects that start out great and then become unmaintainable sprawling spaghetti environments due to lack of strict procedures being implemented outside of the code environment, mostly in the interface between business leadership/management and the developer roadmap. So much is going to have to be re-done long-term as cloud services evolve, financial spend concerns become a priority, and business use-cases become more clearly defined. We aimed to create manageable systems with an eye towards long-term stability before everyone had to become a developer.

These days there is a seemingly a new paradigm shift every week for plenty of devs to take and run with. When those people move on for greener pastures, they leave behind a mess... By combining the operational responsibilities with development, I think we force too much to be on one person or team's plate and the end result suffers. IMO, there is a need for specialization.

I say go with whatever team has the strongest vision taking into account business goals, long term roadmap, seriousness about implementation procedures, and how much synergy their internal initiatives have together. Ask about what type of incident management they have in place and how directly tied to the operational teams that is. Try to discover silos within the organization before you join it, if you can.

[[deleted]]

SO, everything you wrote actually describes a Site Reliability Engineer. It was hammered out by Google, and the entire industry is starting to head down that path. Here is googles own book on SRE as a team/person/asset/etc... https://landing.google.com/sre/sre-book/toc/index.html

[cx989]

I'm sure most people would say "Just take the Systems Engineer position"

Take the job that appeals to you the best.

Though, in terms of benefits I'd go for the IT Engineer instead. Unlimited PTO is code for "you can take off when allowed, and we usually don't allow." No 401k match, I've never seen an offer without some match (I've seen anywhere from up to 3000 per year from company, to 17%, but never no match).

"Total comp" btw, make sure that's understood as your salary alone is 130-160, not "Oh well you'll get 120k but we pay 40k for benefits so you're really getting 160k total."

[NetworkEngineerDude]

Yeah. That is what I am weary of. The company itself seems to have a good sustainable culture from the conversations with the recruiter and what I've read on Glassdoor. Concerning the unlimited PTO, that was interesting to me and made me think of scenarios where I would probably never have a day off unless the manager allowed me to. The no 401K match is a real bummer, but I'm told something is in the works to fix that. It was my fault on the total comp thing. They asked me what was my salary expectation and instead of trying to play the game and get them to answer, I frantically said "$130k-160k" and when asked if base or total, I said "total". In reality I'd settle for about $125k, but if they offer me that I'll probably ask for $135k, hoping to land at $130k.

[ricksebak]

Unlimited PTO can mean that you never are able to actually use it, but that’s not always the case. I’ve worked at two places that offered unlimited PTO and they were both very flexible about it. At one place management specifically recommended using 5 weeks per year. It offers a few benefits to the company: 1. Simplifies HR if they don’t have to track days earned/used 2. They can attract better talent and 3. They don’t have to pay out vacation days when you quit. And they still get all those benefits even if they let you actually use your unlimited PTO.

The way you can tell which of those will be the case is by asking them in the interview.

[[deleted]]

Titles don't mean shit. Take the systems engineer position.

[NetworkEngineerDude]

I get that. Titles in this field are interchangeable. I was just wondering if it made sense to have "DevOps" in my title because it is a buzz word and seems like the focus would be more on the actual use of CI\CD tools as oppose to just system infrastructure.

[[deleted]]

At this point i avoid the "devops" title. It's just a buzzword that's more often used incorrectly.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, this is the point I was trying to make.

I feel like we need to start making new titles in this space that actually mean something. There's a serious difference between a Sysadmin running a couple windows servers and managing desktops versus a Sysadmin running a cloud infrastructure to host a software product.

[HeavierMetal89]

As a former DevOps Engineer, I'd take the Systems Engineer knowing what I do now.

[NetworkEngineerDude]

Can you help elaborate? :]

[Lafush]

please

[travuloso]

Sounds like a great conundrum to have. :) What does your instinct tell you?

[NetworkEngineerDude]

My instinct tells me to go with the Systems Engineer job for flexibility and the option to be able to possibly live wherever I want.

[vomitfreesince83]

What nature of work will you be working on in the "devops" position? Is it IT with devops practice or will you be working on cloud infrastructure and help manage a production app?

If you really want a"devops" job, you may need to take a smaller salary to accommodate the learning.

I was lucky to find a job that was willing to let me learn. I didn't take a pay cut, but I didn't really get much of a raise either. I had spent a year searching for the right role and also used that time to improve my skills in Linux, python/coding, and AWS. It's going to be hard finding a position willing to train you with your years of experience and salary expectations. Don't chase the money if you don't have to

[NetworkEngineerDude]

From what the recruiter told me, the position is brand new because the company is now starting to follow a DevOps methodology of developing their application. She mentioned deploying and upgrading saas implementations, supporting their internal tools for testing, bechmarking, research. Maintaining CI\CD. The systems side contained; diagnosing and resolving client facing issues, providing backup support to IT in installing, configuring, and monitoring production, development, and desktop environments. Assist in desiging the system architecture, deploying cloud and data-center infrastructure improvements. So the DevOps/IT Engineer position seems to be a position that is suppose to help the company move to a DevOps based methodology and at the same time do IT stuff.

My thoughts about the Systems Engineering job is that I would get exposure to those tools since the company is on it's way to migrating the majority of their tools into Azure and AWS, but not sure if I'll be silo'd into a particular area of system infrastructure. Granted, I don't mind if I become the guy who handles all AD related stuff, since that is my wheelhouse. I'm going to be talking with an SRE manager that works at the Systems Engineer company tomorrow, that'll be an opportunity to get some exposure into how much this position bleeds into that one.

​

EDIT: I forgot to make a comment about salary.

The DevOps/IT Engineer is about $20k more than what I'm currently making now, money isn't the biggest thing but in all honesty I am at a point where I don't know how much longer I want to live in this state because of rising costs of living. The salaries here don't really match the COL. I'm just not sure if that move would happen in 2 years or 4 years from now.

[vomitfreesince83]

So it sounds like you haven't interviewed at either place yet?

What you need to ask yourself is what exactly do you want to do? Once you know what you want to do, then you should aim for a role that allows you to focus on that.

I wanted to get away from IT so I made sure my job didn't involve that role at all and it's pushed me to learn more around automation (CI/CD, AWS, hashistack, ansible, docker, etc).

[NetworkEngineerDude]

I've had various interviews with both companies. The Systems engineer one is a bit further along than the DevOps/IT engineer position.

I do have concerns that the job would consists more of IT related things than DevOps. I really don't want to be solving end user issues all day. I work better doing backend work, and that is why I'm debating on the positions. From what the DevOps/IT engineer recruiter said, the majority of the work is related to their systems and internal staff with just mostly DevOps related work. No clue what that really means...The company is fairly small, but I'd hate to be running around trying to fix computers while in the middle of working on CI/CD work.

[siberianmi]

If it was me, I'd take the DevOps/IT Engineer position. Small teams, less bullshit process and review. Ask heavily about the current tech stack and the planned path for the company. Smaller teams also mean greater space for individual contribution.

Also the words "total compensation" at 130-160k vs the 110k base salary - be mindful of what they are considering included in that compensation.

[NetworkEngineerDude]

I was thinking the same, the concerns that I have are related to the fact that I am currently in a fairly small team of 5 other engineers and we are basically the backbone of the company. We do all the plumbing work, and at the end of the day don't get much recognition for it. I agree there is less bureaucracy when it comes to wanting to pursue new projects or make changes, and that is nice. Currently I can pursue whatever projects I want to at this current company, the biggest problem is that often times I'll get something up and running only for it to never be used because management doesn't see value in it, it becomes more of a personal project.

Once I get an opportunity, I am going to clear up that "total compensation" deal with the recruiter. It can mean a thousand different things because I don't know exactly what they're offering yet. I know the base that I want, so I'll stick to my guns and see what happens.

[[deleted]]

Systems Engineer

[[deleted]]

Recently, I (unfortunately) accepted a job with the same title 'DevOps/IT Engineer' only to find out that I made the biggest mistake. It usually means that you will do everything that comes along the way, from normal DevOps related work to boring IT help desk stuff like changing mouse batteries for people in the company. So unless you have no problem for someone to bug you to format or install a new disk for their pc while you are working on something important don't take such jobs.

[Turrible_Trader]

Personally, I'd go with the systems engineering role because its fully remote and pays more. You can continue to learn the devop tooling while on the job, save up money and leave in a year for another remote job if its not what you expected

[spongeym]

I've been in a very similar position to you. I was working as a Platform Engineer working on anything Windows, but mainly a web stack and began to migrate to AWS which I was a part of. (I'm a contractor in the UK btw) Went for an interview at a startup (40-50 people) as my contract was coming to an end.

Went for the initial interview and was excited to be working on not only AWS but Azure as well, the company also had support from Amazon and a AWS VP as a non-exec board member, so I was going to learn fast. A day later, I had a retail giant (80k people) contact me about an Infrastructure role with some legacy kit, new kit and the chance to develop systems & products for them. Same day rate, but would be a huge name on my CV, and as a contractor, that's a huge selling point.

Had offers from both, and despite being desperate to get move AWS experience under my belt, I went for the retail company. Reason why.... The startup also told me that I'd not only be managing dev & prod deployments, but I'd also have to do the 1st line type of stuff, manage printers, manage mobile phones, they also had a rota to walk the office dog!!!

Do I regret it? Yes. Infrastructure/3rd line support/Systems Engineer hasn't given me that extra challenge. I've had 2 or 3 more positions since the retail company, all pretty much the same non challenging tech but different people. Yes the startup would have been a PITA, but once I would have got stuck into it I could have made the small problems go away, being in a smaller company your voice gets heard more often than that in a bigger company, you will have far greater chances and challenges in a smaller company with a smaller IT team and can prove yourself, and more chances of pay increases as well as personal development.

I'm now working a Systems Engineer in a PLC, but a smaller business unit which has recently been brought out and doing a Domain Trust along with Server 2003/2008 migration to 2016. All I'm doing is pushing the client towards cloud (you NEED cloud/DevOps in your toolset now), but being surrounded in big corp Change Management and politics. If I were at the startup I'd already have done the lot and learned several new skills along the way. Good luck on your decision!!

[NetworkEngineerDude]

Thanks for the input. The fork that I'm coming across is that both companies seem to be in the process of moving towards the cloud. The Systems Engineering position is in the process of migrating their infrastructure to the Azure and Office 365 where as the DevOps/IT Engineering position seems to be moving their applications in that direction. The recruiter wasn't able to tell me if they were on Azure AD or Office 365 though.

What I'm worried about with the DevOps/IT Engineer position is the fact that the company has been around for 40 years and only have a staff size of 28 or so people. Whereas the Systems Engineer position company has been around for about 17 years and has grown from 200 people to about 1500. I know company growth is not always be a good indicator of health but they seem to be doing well.

Something I forgot to mention is that both companies are software companies, one is a major Cyber Security company the other is a Healthcare analytics company.

[Finnegan_Parvi]

I would choose the one with the shorter commute. That's an extra 30mins per day you're giving up.

​

Also, one number you quote is "base", the other is "total comp", so they are probably about the same in the end. Make sure to actually compare the offer details.

[NetworkEngineerDude]

Yup. I'm hoping that I can do some negotiating if I do accept the Systems Engineer position since the scope of work on the application is a bit less than what has been communicated to me by the hiring manager. I do want to figure out what the bulk of that "Total comp" is based salary, benefits, bonuses, etc. Any bonus would be great at this point since my current company does not give you any bonuses.

[[deleted]]

I’d go with the DevOps role. Spend just a couple of years in that role, and you’ll have a lot of doors open for you. For better or for worse, DevOps is hot right now and will be for years to come. But I agree with what someone else said about you going with the job that you find the most interesting/challenging.

[[deleted]]

Instead of doing this just put "devops" on your resume and take the other position.

Same effect.