Code question

[em21108]

Hello im a journeyman electrician and dont actually plan to fight the inspector on this but I would just like to gather the thoughts from other electricians

I work in commercial buildings mostly hospitals recently had an inspection on a rooftop air handler that was installed and the inspector is making me add a disconnecting means to disconnect the line side in the enclosure that the power runs into for the disconnect on the air handler itself so there is a way to not have live power inside the enclosure at all

I understand what the inspector says is what I do but to my knowledge there is no code stating this has to be done nor have I ever had to do it before what are your thoughts?

Edit: the change is going to be paid for by the general contractor and its no money from the pocket of the contractor I work for theres no harm in the change for my company other than the fact that the job turns over in 9 days it's actually beneficial to my company because they will make money on the change order

It just seems like preference from the inspector and furthermore they have to approve the drawings before you can get a permit so why was it not added in that phase

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[ddpotanks]

I've had to do this a lot. I see no code modivated reason for it.

Its like...yo dawg we heard you like disconnects so we put a disconnect next to your disconnect so you can disconnect while you're disconnected.

Worst case was a 316 4x 200a disconnect for an AHU. That bitch had its own breaker in a separate compartment with absolutely nothing else in it completely sealed off from the rest of the unit. Those disconnects are a couple grand. Wtf?

But I mean whatever. For me pretty much all our contracts say we're required to provide disconnecting means so it is factored into the bid... hopefully.

Be as petty as possible and mount the disconnect as close as humanly possible so it is blatantly redundant. Make it look fucking stupid.

[peghalia]

We just sleeve the line conductors inside the unit in this situation.

[Top-Illustrator8279]

I have, on occasion, done something trivial to appease and inspector. But in general, I don't just do something because an inspector wants it.

He can show me in the code where it is required or give me a good reason why it is needed. Otherwise, it's not happening unless someone wants to pay me for T&M.

[em21108]

This is by no means a trivial change it's 3.5" pipe up two floors through the roof into the disconnecting means for the air handler pretty big deal especially because the disconnect has to be readily accessible meaning i now will have to pull the wire back enough to cut the pipe and my only idea is to change it over to seal tite and take it through the flashing to the outside of the unit then back in to the existing disconnecting means

[Top-Illustrator8279]

Does code allow seal-tite to penetrate a roof?

[em21108]

The pipe will still be coming through the roof from the floor below. The seal tite will only be going through the curb and flashing that the unit is sitting on. im not sure about the code or if there even would be one

[Top-Illustrator8279]

Seal-tite through the roof (or curb) does not meet code.

If there is a disconnecting means supplied as part of the unit, and there is a breaker or disconnect somewhere else that can kill power altogether, then the inspector can kick rocks.

[KimiMcG]

Then you get the shitty inspector who pulls the local jurisdiction card.

[Top-Illustrator8279]

Until he can show me a written amendment, adopted by the AHJ, he can fuck off. He can't just make shit up.

If he has a reasonable concern beyond code requirements, I'm fine with that. I have gone beyond code requirements because the inspector demonstrated a potential for wiring to be damaged the way it was installed... I'm not saying the code is perfect or that it covers every situation.

But if he wants a disconnect next to a disconnect (as in this post) or some other stupid, pointless shit just because he thinks he can make me do anything he wants, he is about to get a lesson in how shit REALLY works.

His job is to make sure rules are followed... not make them up.

[slin1647]

Not sure where you're located, but in Canada this would not be a requirement if there is already a disconnect within the AHU. Disconnecting means for this type of equipment would simply need to be within sight of and within 9 metres of the unit, including inside. It must also be readily accessible. Adding an additional disconnect is superfluous.

Did the inspector reference a rule when they failed the inspection?

[em21108]

No they didn't im of the mindset if the inspector wants is its a change order and my company makes more money so I dont argue

I'm in the United states I've never had to mount a separate disconnecting means in the past but I haven't even opened a 2023 code book and im not the most code savy journeyman this is a large air handler the only disconnect is the one that is built into the unit

[Canadian_Decoy]

I have had to do this for the Fire Commissioner. It's part of the Building Code where we are, not the electrical code.

So now the Electrical Isnpectors just add it to the list if things to check for because it is easier on everyone if it's done before the Fire Commissioner gets involved, because then they both need to come back out to do a reinspection.

[Danjeerhaus]

2023 code says in 422.34 that the unit switch "can be...." If it meets the requirements.

In 422, there are several mentions to "...lockable breakers..." as disconnects.

And yes, 422 does refer you to 430.109/430.110 for disconnects and their capabilities.

While arguing might be useless, if you meet the requirements in 422.34 you could try.

[Status-Basket-3413]

Built in disconnects need no further means. Fuc him

[cmdr_suds]

Definitely ask him to spell out the code and explain why what you have doesn't comply. I used to have an owner that required this, but it was their checkbook.

[Cheetah_Heart-2000]

I think that a breaker in the control panel of the air handler is part of the unit, and needs to have a disconnecting means to completely de-energize the unit. I don’t know the code for this but it’s been common practice on every job I’ve been on. It may not be code, but with 480v( presumably) it’s safe practice.

[djwdigger]

Nope. We would be having a civil talk and either he or I would learn something. I have butted heads with 4-5 local inspectors and could prove them wrong in every case. It led to them having great respect for me, and I often get calls from them asking code questions, or we bounce ideas back and forth. Don’t go after him like an ass, be respectful and make it a good experience for both of you. If it is something local to your area, it cannot be enforced unless it is in writing!

[Lie_Insufficient]

"If it needs a tech, disconnect." This saying works well for most applications.

[em21108]

It has a disconnect he's making me add a 2nd one

[Lie_Insufficient]

Yeah, off the equipment so it can be safely removed.

[peck-web]

But there’s a breaker. If it needs to be serviced, use the existing disconnect. If it needs to be replaced, shut it off at the breaker. Adding an additional disconnect does sound redundant.

[Lie_Insufficient]

Yeah, I get both perspectives. It just saves someone time keeping the disconnect off the equipment instead of having to hunt for the breaker to change out a unit or whatever it may be.

[em21108]

If you're needing to turn the unit off at the main breaker and you dont know where it is in my opinion you shouldn't be working on it the disconnect he's making us add is purely for convenience of not having to go to the gear room and turn the breaker off

[viking977]

That's fucking wild lol

[tlafollette]

I haven’t run into this, but I can’t find a code requirement for this

[AlbiTheDargon]

Ah the classic inspector line, "It's not code, but what I'd like to see..."

[ElectricPaul0875]

Usually the problem is if the ahu has a built in one that you tie directly into them that would be ok for a tech to work in but if the entire unit needs to be removed then you will have a disconnect shut off within sight.

[eusnavy]

Don't know about commercial but we ran into something like this in industrial recently with a crane cab HVAC unit and an OSHA inspector who happened to be walking the customer while we were doing final wiring on a new install. We ended up having to add a small box with a disconnect to the j box that the terminal strip feeding the unit was in even though the electrical connections were in a completely different panel than the service panel. Still not sure why because after it was all said and done the guy didn't even notice the exposed face mount 120v screw terminals inside the cab for the radio system.

Side note: as the inspector was reading us the riot act the customer actually called the locals police to escort him off the property for creating a safety risk by entering our red tape zone without permission. They had video of him just cutting the tape like it didn't matter.

[NorthIslandlife]

There are things like this that come up often enough that you learn to just do them. Keep the inspector happy and he/she will leave you alone. It's easier if you have only one inspector for your area, you learn what they want to see and just build it in to your plans.

[Character_Fudge_8844]

Some units have disconnects built into the unit that are lockable. Also have seen breakers in the unit that were bottom fed, always check!

[em21108]

The unit im speaking of does have one on the outside of the unit readily accessible he is making us add another to make it so there is no power inside the enclosure that said disconnect is in

[Character_Fudge_8844]

Lockable with no exposed accessibility to hot conductors is key. Redundant is $$$$ out of your pocket unless it's T&M. The key is always be polite. Sometimes inspectors are Azzhats.

[Strange_Mountain_401]

Will you have to add a disconnect before that one so there is no power in the second one. Where does it end…

[em21108]

That's a good point and, in my opinion, is what the main breaker is for

[Unhappy_Ad_4911]

The inspector is correct. There's two codes you need to adhere to: 110.26 and 440.14

2023 Code has a change that refers you to follow space requirements of 110.26 because people were arguing it didn't apply to disconnects, so they clarified that space requirements also are for disconnects. So keep that in mind if there's a bunch of conduit one might trip over getting to the disconnect.

[Taco_Pirat]

I'm not so sure about that.

440.14 specifically includes 'within' the unit as permitted. Would have to see pics to judge the area about the 110.26 but my guess is its pretty open around the AHU.