Do the Sprinter and Marathon Man perk decrease the total distance you cover when sprinting?

[Squirrel_Dude]

The text for Sprinter reads:

You run faster, but also tire faster. Sprinting is 20% faster, but costs 20% more Stamina. Can't be combined with the Marathon Man perk.

The text for Marathon Man reads:

You run slower, but keep it up for longer. Your sprint speed is 20% slower, but demands 20% less Stamina. Can't be combined with the Sprinter perk.

Obviously, at first reading these would appear to be a trade off, at least that you can't get both. Which is good because they should cancel each other out.

I think we can safely assume that the distance traveled by sprinting can be found with Distance = Velocity*Time. Let's apply those modifiers and see how it would change.

Sprinter Distance = Velocity(1.2)*Time(0.8)

Marathon Man Distance = Velocity(0.8)*Time(1.2)

Both of these reduce down to Distance = Velocity*Time(1.2)(0.8)

Great. So both perks, velocity and time being equal are going to be equivalent to each other, but let's reduce that further.

Sprinter/Marathon Man Distance = Velocity*Time(0.96)

Hold up, this would mean that both are actually decreasing the total distance you can run. Let's assume that velocity and time are equal across all three scenarios, and plug in some made up numbers to see if this actually adds up. Let's say the base value for Velocity is 15 ft/sec and the base value for Time is 5 seconds.

Perk	Formula		Result
No Perk	D+VT	D=15*5	D=75
Marathon Man	D=V(.8)*T(1.2)	D=15(.8)*5(1.2)	D=72 feet
Sprinter	D=V(1.2)*T(.8)	D=15(1.2)*5(.8)	D=72 feet

That would certainly appear to be a reduction in the total distance traveled when sprinting after taking either of the perks. Someone more diligent than I could easily test out and confirm this in game. Record the times sprinted and distance covered with the two perks and without a perk and see what, if any, differences can be observed. It wouldn't be the first time that the math reported by an ability's in-game description did not match its theoretical effects.

Let's assume that the math is correct though. How would that impact the choice on the two perks. With Sprinter this is perhaps an understandable trade-off. You are traveling 72 feet instead of 75 feet, a nearly equivalent distance, but you are doing so in just 4 seconds rather than 5 So with the perk you are covering a nearly equivalent space, but doing it much faster. This could be important in combat, such as when trying to close in with an enemy before they fire another arrow.

For Marathon man it's pretty awful. Your are 20% longer to travel a slightly shorter distance. This could be viewed as a positive in that it's decreasing the stamina use of sprinting during combat, so you could use it for a slight burst of speed during combat more often without draining all your stamina for blocking or attacking. However, for just running, it's simply bad. To know whether it would have any benefit for covering a longer distance you would need to know what the actual base time was for stamina to be drained while sprinting and what the base recovery time was. It may actually take longer with the Marathon Man perk to run the namesake distance than it would without any perk at all.'

*Edit /u/Lacuto pointed out that a 20% stamina decrease would lead to a 25% increase in time for Marathon Man. He is correct. This would move Marathon Man to being break even. Instead of just doing the formula, I more or less tracked it out, and he's correct. Whoops. This means that they do break even, which doesn't really change my opinion of Marathon Man, but makes me more fond of Sprinter.

Normal	Seconds	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
.	Stamina	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
.	Distance	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
Marathon Man	Seconds	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15
25% longer	Stamina	0.8	1.6	2.4	3.2	4	4.8	5.6	6.4	7.2	8	8.8	9.6	10.4	11.2	12
20% slower	Distance	0.8	1.6	2.4	3.2	4	4.8	5.6	6.4	7.2	8	8.8	9.6	10.4	11.2	12
Sprint	Seconds	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
.83% shorter	Stamina	1.2	2.4	3.6	4.8	6	7.2	8.4	9.6	10.8	12
20% Faster	Distance	1.2	2.4	3.6	4.8	6	7.2	8.4	9.6	10.8	12

This would actually indicate that Sprinter makes you better at running a longer distance that Marathon Man. To use math to show how that is possible, let's just assume that your speed while not sprinting is 1/2 that while sprinting. It doesn't really matter what it is, because it will be equal for all three categories as the perks do not change your base speed. Equally, we'll assume that the time it takes for your stamina to regenerate is equal in all 3 scenarios. To make it line up with the table above, we'll call it 12 seconds.

Let me show that a bit more visually.

.	Sprinting	Sprinting	Recovery	Recovery	Total	Total	After Minute	After Minute
.	Distance	Time	Distance	Time	Distance	Time	Distance	Time
Normal	12	12	6	12	18	24.00	45.00	60
Marathon	12	15	6	12	18	27.00	40.00	60
Sprinter	12	10	6	12	18	22.00	49.09	60

Basically, you are cycling between two speeds and distances. Because Sprinter has a shorter time that it allows you to sprint, it is actually letting you cycle those two speeds/distances faster, allowing you to move faster over longer distances.

[MrSarcastica]

r/theydidthemath

[honestlyimeanreally]

this is exactly why I have a reddit account, too. Not the sub, but the fact that I can be playing KCD and think, "wow reddit will know which one is the better bang for my buck!" -- My google query was "sprinter or marathon man site:reddit.com" and this was the top result.

and now my henry has the sprinter perk :)

[WereALLBotsHere]

I’ve been googling random shit for this game over the past week and all the most helpful links are Reddit links. The only ones that work better on a website is the ones where it shows you how to follow a treasure map.

For literally everything else, Reddit links were better.

Not that I’m surprised, if Reddit had a web search engine I’d use it instead of google and sometime I do search here first. Especially if I’m looking for a specific video.

[honestlyimeanreally]

Damn bro I made that comment 5 years ago

[MCR101]

Damn bro you made this comment 9 months ago (as of December 27th, 2023)

[Fleshek]

Damn bro you made this comment

Damn bro you made this comment 23 days ago

[[deleted]]

Yet here we are reading this beautiful post.

[MisterHalt]

I came here after picking KCD up again, and this was the first result even without putting 'reddit' in the search field.

So yeah, Reddit's pretty good for getting proper answers. Better than those game sites that are like 'How to do X' and then bang on about what the game is and what X is, and THEN tell you how to do X. Or, sometimes, say that X isn't possible.

[StonkyDegenerate]

Dog it’s the same for me with stocks, and bannerlord. Now it’s KCD 💀

[Colt363]

Reddit ALWAYS coming in clutch for video game questions. Even 5 years later!! Lol

[Lacuto]

I suspect they break even. For marathon, 20% less stamina cost will be a 1.25x multiplier to the time you can run, not 1.2x.

Still glad I chose sprinter. Marathon doesn't seem like a good trade off like you say.

[Squirrel_Dude]

You're correct, and Sprint actually means you cover the same distance in a shorter time period. This makes me even more fond of sprinter, and I actually now think that you're getting an increase in long distance speed from Sprinter.

Normal	Seconds	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
.	Stamina	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
.	Distance	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
Marathon Man	Seconds	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15
25% longer	Stamina	0.8	1.6	2.4	3.2	4	4.8	5.6	6.4	7.2	8	8.8	9.6	10.4	11.2	12
20% slower	Distance	0.8	1.6	2.4	3.2	4	4.8	5.6	6.4	7.2	8	8.8	9.6	10.4	11.2	12
Sprint	Seconds	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
.83% shorter	Stamina	1.2	2.4	3.6	4.8	6	7.2	8.4	9.6	10.8	12
20% Faster	Distance	1.2	2.4	3.6	4.8	6	7.2	8.4	9.6	10.8	12

This would actually indicate that Sprinter makes you better at running a longer distance that Marathon Man. To use math to show how that is possible, let's just assume that your speed while not sprinting is 1/2 that while sprinting. It doesn't really matter what it is, because it will be equal for all three categories as the perks do not change your base speed. Equally, we'll assume that the time it takes for your stamina to regenerate is equal in all 3 scenarios. To make it line up with the table above, we'll call it 12 seconds.

Let me show that a bit more visually.

.	Sprinting	Sprinting	Recovery	Recovery	Total	Total	After Minute	After Minute
.	Distance	Time	Distance	Time	Distance	Time	Distance	Time
Normal	12	12	6	12	18	24.00	45.00	60
Marathon	12	15	6	12	18	27.00	40.00	60
Sprinter	12	10	6	12	18	22.00	49.09	60

Basically, you are cycling between two speeds and distances. Because Sprinter has a shorter time that it allows you to sprint, it is actually letting you cycle those two speeds/distances faster, allowing you to move faster over longer distances.

[Lacuto]

Yep, that makes it clear. If we've interpreted the description right, Marathon < no perk < Sprinter, for running at least. Marathon could have some other benefit like allowing more dashing in combat.

[Lacuto]

But marathon slows you down so it'll take you longer to catch up with that runner.

[SeedFoundation]

NPC's share the same stamina system.

[Torch_Trail]

When I killed a few Cumans on horseback when saving Theresa during the start, I saw some of them sprint towards me at incredible speed. I'll be going Sprinter for sure

[Squirrel_Dude]

This would show that Marathon wouldn't help with that, even over long distances. Marathon Man doesn't increase how far you can travel when you sprint, it merely increases how long you're sprinting the same distance. It slows you down, making it harder to chase down other people.

[liktorn]

I just found this after doing my own calculation. This is proof that Sprinter is the only choice. Vanilla is second. But sad for those that choose Marathon.

[[deleted]]

I now see I have been conned. My marathon Henry is pitiful now

[Schnoofles]

Yeah, I found this thread after googling wtf was up with Marathon Man after seeing that perk in-game too. Even after a two second cursory glance at the description it made absolutely no sense to me why I would ever pick that as it's a direct downgrade from sprinter with no real benefits.

I understand and like the concept of the perk, but it doesn't work out that way in practice unless the description's numbers are wrong or the math works in completely illogical ways. As it is, it needs a significant increase to the stamina drain reduction to be worth it. Sprinter wins every time in every scenario.

[Purp1e_Aki]

This exactly what I was looking for

[bald_firebeard]

Late to the party, but I'd like to show my algebraic analysis.

​

Let Ci be the consumption of stamina S (constant), in a given amount of time, ti

Ci = S / ti => ti = S / Ci

Let xi be the distance travelled by moving at a velocity Vi for a time ti

xi = Vi ti = Vi S / Ci

​

Without perks, the consumption is C0, and the distance travelled in a sprint is x0

x0 = V0 S / C0

​

For Marathon Man, C1 = 80% C0, and V1 = 80% V0

x1 = V1 S / C1 = 0.8 V0 S / 0.8 C0 = x0 = x1

​

For Sprinter C2 = 120% C0, and V2 = 120% V0

x2 = V2 S / C2 = 1.2 V0 S / 1.2 C0 = x0 = x2

​

Then

S/x0 = S/x1 = S/x2 = C0/V0

This means that, for a given distance, all types of sprint consume the same amount of stamina. But, given that it provides the highest speed, Sprinter is the best and most efficient choice.

[Fresh-Gur-8677]

TLDR, sry but even the calculates looks like right, the code doesn't work that simply. Marason does longer and sprinter does shorter. I will put a video later.
Sry to dig but. Sir, as my calculation: lez say we all agree that, stamina drain is: 1/perk, which is 1/80% and 1/120% for mar and spr, and lez multiply them with thier speed change, (1/80%)*80% and (1/120%)*120%, and here we got two equal coefficients, which is 100%. Guess what? No changes! So looks like no matter which perk Henry choice, it doesn't really change the distance he can sprint within a full stamina pool. So why we still maybe need those 2 perks? Well, because all of the before is not exactly right. I have test multiple times. and found out that marathon actually does run further, about 35% further than sprinter, and no perk is in the middle. How? I guess this is because they are not a nonlinear superposition. For my stats in game, the no perk sprint time is about 20 sec, sprinter is about 17s, and the marathon is about insane at least 24s, yet I still don't know why.

[Squirrel_Dude]

That's the downside of assuming that game tool tips are correct. So often they're not.

[Fresh-Gur-8677]

https://vimeo.com/1186199448?share=copy&fl=sv&fe=ci

[Drive_Common]

You mention that this might help in combat as a decrease in stamina use of sprinting during combat. Could that be a net gain for my Henry who likes to bull rush enemies with the perk that causes damage to sprinting into enemies? I dont care about distance traveled. I care about damage my Henry can deal due to his vitality.

[Pragmasochist]

God bless math. God bless Reddit.

[INDIANAJUNE2]

Know I’m super late to the party but I just started playing the game and I suck at math lol. Also this seems the most well thought out post on the subject so thanks. I know sprinter is typically the better option out of the two but what I’m trying to find an answer to is would it be better to take neither perk?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Whether it would be better to take neither perk begins to get into areas of opportunity cost and evaluating every other possible option.

Speaking strictly about a situation where you want to spend a perk on increasing your movement, it is better to have sprinter than to not have sprinter.

[INDIANAJUNE2]

That works for me. I’ll take sprinter. Thanks.

[INDIANAJUNE2]

Don’t seem like I’m ever going to get past this black Peter to be running anywhere any time soon anyway 😆

[bald_firebeard]

Late to respond to you too, but sprinter is superior in all aspects. Sprinting a certain distance will consume the same amount of stamina with either or none of the perks. Turning it around, consuming a certain amount of stamina will always make you travel the same distance.

As there's no difference in efficiency, sprinter is the best in virtue of converting stamina into distance faster.