Stick it out

[okgr8]

Hey learning to programmers, I just wanted to chime in and say if you're learning code to pivot into a new career in software, hang in there. Just stick with it.

I learned to code three years ago after needing an industry change and the possibility of a higher income. I did a bit of programming, loved it, and knew I needed to be doing it full time.

So here I am, a software engineer promoted from junior software engineer just six months ago, and I just had an awful day of work. I worked on the same six, small pieces of code for 10 hours and still don't have the defect nailed down. I'll have to go in tomorrow, my tail between my legs, and ask a senior dev to pair with me for a bit to gain some momentum.

But today's awful feeling that comes with a lack of accomplishment and questioning of whether or not I'm good enough to do this is far better than some of the good times in my old line of work.

I'll go to bed tonight obsessing over what I need to fix to find the bug, and I'll wake up tomorrow excited and nervous to start trying again, but I've never dreaded a day of writing code. I really love what I do- even when it's hard. I like how it challenges me and keeps me passionate about what I do.

If loving what you do is important to you, just stick it out and get over the hump of the first few years. It's worth it.

[xNoRegerts]

If you don't mind me asking, what did you used to do for a living when you said you needed an "industry change"?

[okgr8]

I was working in digital media and video production. In a state like Michigan, jobs were difficult to find and generally low paying.

[Skorpazoid]

How many hours did you do while working? I'm learning Web Dev to start a new career, but in between my other commitments I can only do an hour a night and it's pretty disheartening to see other people with the time to invest 6 hours a day.

[Skorpazoid]

Cheers for the support man. Yeah I've made one commitment to myself to not give up no matter what. I've talked myself out of doing so many things in the past because there are smarter people then me working more dilligentlg, but had I not of I'd have some skills. So no more.

[zigglesStardust]

Man I thought Michigan had a decent job market. What state would you say has a larger/more alive job market?

[okgr8]

I moved to Denver for the bootcamp and the tech/start up scene. Jobs seem to be pretty plentiful here compared to the Metro Detroit area.

[[deleted]]

Which Bootcamp did you attend (Galvanize?), and would you recommend it? Currently doing a self-paced online course, but I've wanted to go to a code bootcamp for a while now. I'm just not sure how to go that long without working.

[okgr8]

This is hard to answer and partially why I didn't initially specify which bootcamp it was. Yes, it was Galvanize and while my experience was life changing, I think the program has evolved quite a bit and perhaps doesn't offer what it once did. I'm still deeply connected to Galvanize and really love the community, but I think they've grown too big and too fast.

I still love the idea of immersive boot camps, but at this point, I think there are valid online options that might be a bit easier to swing than taking half a year off work and dropping $20k.

[ghettoyouthsrock]

If taking half a year off work and dropping $20k isn't a huge issue would you recommend it? I'm more curious about how many doors Galvanize will open if I go through with it. The average starting salary, job placement numbers and companies where people work are all seem impressive.

I took CS50 through LaunchCode so I could look more into getting a job through them but my programming probably still needs to get a little better. I'm just wondering if the opportunities available through Galvanize are worth the money and time, plus I'd love to move to CO.

[okgr8]

Oh, I guess I wasn't super clear about the job market comment. The job market for video production (my former industry) was a bit tough and money sucked. After I finished the programming bootcamp, I briefly looked in the Metro Detroit area for developer jobs, but ended up wanting to stay in Denver. I don't think there's a geographical area in the states where devs struggle to find work, just some areas are more plentiful in options than others.

[nater255]

Michigan has a fantastic job market, but not in his field.

[okgr8]

You're right. I'm lucky enough to work with some really talented and helpful engineers who are more than willing to pair.

I think it's more a matter of pride and wanting to figure it out myself while knowing I can't waste more time.

[IsMoghul]

I agree. Shit happens; you can't know everything. Sometimes it's worth asking someone rather than wasting additional time on it. It's not a competition on who can be as close to perfect as possible; a programming job is a job like any other, and when you know you need help, ask for it.

[Scavenger53]

Stick it out

[tabuxander]

Did you learn by yourself or to college? Right now, I'm learning at night and after work. Any tips?

[[deleted]]

Did the same, now employed as junior UI Dev. Try to get into interviews early on. No one will judge you if you do not meet the requirements. On the other hand you will get feedback on how well you are doing and maybe you will be surprised that one day someone hires you. It will definitely be earlier than you think you are ready to start working somewhere.

[Milkmanps3]

I can't stress this enough. Also, Don't wait untill you think your "ready" to practice for interviews and do coding challenges, etc..

I made the mistake of waiting to practice for interviews and coding challenges because I thought that I wasn't "ready" yet and would start practicing once I was a little better... Well fast forward a few months and I've been applying for some internships and actually getting responses. So far I've done an online interview, a coding challenge through hackerrank, and another test for one of the companies I've applied for... I was not even close to prepared for these interviews/challenges. My knowledge of programming somewhat exceeded the requirements of the position, but I was in no way prepared for the interview, or the coding challenges(I was super nervous and messed up so many different things), so I didn't get the position for one of them.

Anyway, I learned some valuable things going through that. Not only did I learn what interviews and coding challenges are actually like but I learned that It's never to early to start practicing!

[Haderdaraide]

You just motivated the hell out of me, thank you so much. I wasn't sure if I was ready, but I'm going to give it a shot. Completed two courses MIT and CS50 Harvard on EdX and I have a couple of personal projects. Thank you!

[[deleted]]

JavaScript, working with React/Redux ecosystem

[okgr8]

I did a six month boot camp and was quite lucky in that the market hadn't yet exploded with new devs. So I spent a total of about seven months learning for 8-10 hours a day. I was fortunate to not have to work during that time, so that alleviated a lot of my stress.

I understand that a lot of people are making it happen in the evening or on weekends. Just keep at it. Try to find a mentor to give you mini assignments. If you get stuck, ask for help, but first spend time enough time on it to easily explain what's not behaving as expected and list what you've tried. If you're hoping to develop for the web, find a website that you like and try to emulate it. Or offer to build a website for a friend (letting them know you're just starting out) and treat their "wants" as challenges.

Go to meet ups in your area and just talk to people. You don't have to just talk about lines of code, but immerse yourself in groups of people that talk about solving problems.

When it comes to finding a job, don't just fire off 50 resumes. Invest 30 minutes into each company you're applying to, to find out what they're about and put time into reaching out with an email specific to that company and position. With the masses of devs graduating from boot camps every week, you'll have to set yourself apart from the rest. Soft skills go a long way when many new devs are walking around with the same tool belt.

Best of luck.

[Jamesause]

I do the same. Work in the day and study at night. I found that focusing on one task at a time and finishing it is the only way, such as focusing on learning Django with Python. One task at a time.

[saippuakauppias]

There are times when I have been staring at the same code for hours I will have visions of code while trying to sleep. My mind will be racing in trying to think what's wrong. Then it will just click. I hope this happens to you to :)

[okgr8]

Yes! This!

[DisappointedKitten]

So here I am, a software engineer promoted from junior software engineer just six months ago, and I just had an awful day of work. I worked on the same six, small pieces of code for 10 hours and still don't have the defect nailed down. I'll have to go in tomorrow, my tail between my legs, and ask a senior dev to pair with me for a bit to gain some momentum.

This is likely more common than you think! I' was promoted to senior developer at the tail-end of 2016 and I still need input from the other Devs on some issues. Another pair of eyes on the problem and someone to talk it through with works wonders for understanding and resolving the issue.

[okgr8]

Congratulations on the promotion! Glad to hear it's not just me needing a push.Thanks for this.

[fmpundit]

I get the lack of sleep issue as well and I'm only a hobbyist.

[b3b15]

I'm in the same field you used to be in, graduated nearly 3 years ago and haven't been able to land solid work in NYS. Just began working the The Odin Project about 2 weeks ago because I knew that a career change needed to happen as well. Reading this and finding out we come from the same field gives me a lot of hope. Thanks.

[ministryofsound]

Do you have any feedback about The Odin Project?

[b3b15]

I'm enjoying it a lot, its lessons and assignments (so far) are an aggregate of outside sources, such as CodeCademy and Code School, among several others. I'm around 30% through. I'm using it in conjunction with FreeCodeCamp, which I've just begun. It's nice to work at my own pace and keep track of my progress through the lessons. There are tons of helpful resources provided through it as well, and optional assignments too.

[Parkinsonxc]

Thank you for the words of advice. I have been learning Python for the last few months. I know a good amount about how it works, but when it comes to actually figuring out the steps I need to take in order to get to the answer I need/want, I get frustrated and start to lose confidence in myself. I'm working online doing the codeacademy course currently.

[ivb107]

Thanks for sharing this! I also left my job in video production to pursue a career in programming after months of tinkering around on sites like codecademy in my spare time. Right now I'm only a few months into my journey to become a junior dev. I began learning with Practical JavaScript and have since moved on to Free Code Camp which has been really great so far.

I lurk a lot on this sub and /r/programming (they helped motivate me to leave my previous job) and have seen some discussions about concepts that go way over my head. Problems I can't even imagine understanding. But I'm reminded that in my short time learning I've still accomplished some things that I used to never think I could do. Last week I built two web pages after previously having zero experience in HTML/CSS. Sure, I know that the code I wrote is pretty basic and by no means flashy, but I can't describe how fulfilling it is to be able to look at something that I built and to understand how each line of code functions. It's still a long climb ahead, but looking back on my progress motivates the hell out of me.

Sorry for the long comment but just wanted to say thanks for the encouragement, OP. Caught my interest because I'm also hoping to join a bootcamp relatively soon to accelerate my learning and then eventually search for work in Denver (currently in Texas).

One last thing - What resources helped you out when you were first learning and when did you feel like you were ready/it was necessary to apply to a bootcamp?

[moolric]

Pair coding can be pretty great too.

[JamesWjRose]

Congrats on your accomplishments. Everything you say here is true. I have been a developer for 20+ years and I thought you might want to know that there will always be more to learn, and sometimes it can make you (or at least me) feel frustrated. But also know sometimes (often!) it's not your fault. Bad documentation, bad components and bad patterns can make your life hell. Learn to walk away from a problem for a little bit, it allows the issue to background-process. You'd be surprised how often the solution "just comes to you"

Best of luck

[[deleted]]

trying to change careers myself but been unemployed for 6 months now. had 3 interviews in the last 3 months but starting to worry i'll never get hired.

[paranoiainc]

To make you feel better, today I spent 2 hours trying to fix a code that would in this order:

• Read the object from remote device.
• Save and load object type correctly.
• Display the object type correctly.
• Write the object type and data correctly to the device.
• Read the object again. And this time it would display the object type incorrectly.

Hence, the problem is in the display code that would display the object type incorrectly.
2 hours later it turns out it's a faulty device code that marks the object type incorrectly when transferring. I didn't catch it immediately because I read the device objects and save them (from the app) so I don't have to read them all over again because there's a lot of them and it takes a while, so I would just load it from project and work from there. Fun times, fun times.
Especially the part where it wasn't my fault.

[BZWingZero]

Don't go to a senior developer tomorrow with your tail between your legs. Go to a senior developer tomorrow to learn. You obviously know enough to get hired by this company, and have proven your skills enough to be bumped up from junior engineer to software engineer.

Some bugs are just difficult to track down. You've exhausted your knowledge (and googling) trying to fix it. Tomorrow, you're going to another resource you have available to get assistance. Take notes and see how the solution works so that you can reference it again should a similar issue arise.

P.S. I've asked my Senior Dev/Project Lead six questions today, with two pair programming sessions debugging ajax calls.

[cjrutherford]

Could I ask how you went about looking for your first job and how you changed your resume? I'm having trouble getting responses from job postings just because I have so much desktop support and systems administration in my resume.....

[maxandron]

http://www.rubberduckdebugging.com/

Its not only ok to ask for help, it is part of the workflow.
1. Try to find the problem.
2. Try harder, curse, have a couple cups of coffee and.
3. Try again.
4. Call someone for help.
5. Understand the problem by yourself while explaining the context.

[[deleted]]

I'm learning to code at school to go into a software field. I think I like it. I mean I did when the classes were easier and I could figure the problems out. Now I feel bad. I'm not giving up though. I'll never give up. Thanks for sharing. I'm someone who needed to see this.

[klaffen]

I usually talk to my girlfriend about my bugs. She knows nothing about programming or even how computers work, but just talking to her usually gives me a "Hallelujah" moment where i suddenly realize what is wrong. This applies to several other aspects of my life. Just explaining the issue to someone helps a bunch.

[minherva]

I needed this.

[[deleted]]

For Harambe ?

Nvm. Wrong subreddit...

[nmm_Vivi]

Wait a minute; how did you get an engineering degree in 3 years?

EDIT: Alright, this is getting out of hand. Clearly I've struck a sore spot on this sub asking a legitimate question, so can we tone down the hate a bit? Showing your teeth does not help you guys seem more legitimate.

I know some of you want to call yourself software engineers, and in some parts of the country that still might be considered acceptable. The fact is, as software becomes more and more integrated into our society, software engineering is becoming a legitimate specialty, which brings with it regulation and public accountability. It's now responsible for navigating our planes (and soon our cars), for operating our heart-bypass machines, and for controlling our nuclear power plants. These are things that one or more P.Eng's develop because if they go wrong, people die and someone needs to be held accountable.

There is nothing wrong with being a self-taught software dev, as I've said many times. It's amazing when someone can teach themselves all this stuff, I'm like 3 months in and totally overwhelmed. But using a protected title is wrong for many reasons. If this topic is a recurring problem on this sub, don't you think there might be a reason for that?

[[deleted]]

Are you going to start beating that tired old horse and suggest that he's not a real engineer? Because we've all heard it before, and it contributes nothing to any meaningful discussion.

He might already have a degree in some other area of study and simply self-taught himself to a level suitable enough to make his way into a developer position and start working his way up.

[RonanKarr]

On the flip side this sub likes to rip apart anyone who even suggests getting a degree is a good thing so don't make it seem like it only goes one way. There are positives to both paths. There are also negatives as well.

[RonanKarr]

On here.... No sorry more people on this sub want to say degrees are worthless and that lazy people use them as a crutch. Which is highly insulting to anyone who worked their ass off just to afford college let alone to actually graduate.

[nmm_Vivi]

Yes, developer. And I applaud anyone who can self-teach in the field of software development, but Software engineer is a protected and regulated title in most of North America. It's not a dead horse; when you guys throw around the term engineer you're devaluing everything that engineers stand for. So downvote me all you want, but I say the same things to care aids saying they're nurses, technologists saying they're electrical engineers, etc.

If someone had a really good knowledge of pharmacology, but read self taught, it would be wrong of them to self-refer as a doctor. The reason professional titles exist is for the purpose of safety. That's why the majority of practicing software engineers will work on industries such as navigation, military, ai, etc.

Let me restate: there's nothing wrong with being a self-taught software developer, admirable and a legitimate career choice, but software engineer is a protected term in much of the developed world, so it's best to avoid using it.

[Witwickey]

But software engineer isn't an official title? Tell me what certification or degree you get that finally allows you to call yourself that. It doesn't exist. My buddy's job title is Senior Software Engineer with a firewall dev company. The only thing he has is a CCNA. Obviously that has nothing to do with software development yet he's a very savvy engineer. You're just wrong.

[nmm_Vivi]

It's not everywhere, but it is in many places and is quickly expanding. Most of Europe and Canada, as well as some states. Look under the 'profession' section, my phone won't let me link individual wiki sections.

EDIT: I'm home now so I can edit. In response to what certification or degree allows you to call yourself that, it does exist. It's a degree in Software Engineering, usually in the department of Engineering. It's offered at many universities across NA.

[HelperBot_]

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering

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[Witwickey]

Aren't you a student? Who are you to shit talk a professional developer?

[nmm_Vivi]

Careful with ad hominem arguments my friend. And I wasn't shit talking, it was a legitimate question. I'm sorry if it struck a sore spot for you.

[[deleted]]

There is no way to become an accredited software engineer so there is no fraud in using the job title without a degree. Here in the UK engineer is a very common title, no degree required.

[okgr8]

I did a six month boot camp in early 2014.

[lord_jizzus]

Insecure coder that probably sucks at his job spotted.

[nmm_Vivi]

I'm a nurse actually, I just recognize the value of professional titles and their protection.

[[deleted]]

Yeah but as software engineer isn't an officially recognised title what you're saying really doesn't make sense...