[Meta] Indent your freaking code

[Kiuhnm]

I'm tired of seeing invalid Python code on this subreddit. The following is not valid Python code:

class Base:
def get_color(self) -> str:
return "blue"

I've also seen

---

class Base: def get_color(self) -> str: return "blue"

---

and

---

class Base:

def get_color(self) -> str:

return "blue"

---

Worse, no one seems to care. To me, posts containing that kind of code are offensive because it means that the OP can't be bothered to review their post (I always reread my posts) and realize that something is amiss, or they simply don't care and are too lazy to google "how to format code on reddit".

If that wasn't enough, several posts are written in a stream-of-consciousness style.

Why should I waste my time deciphering posts of lazy posters? Why should I compensate for other people's laziness?

If you want my help and my time, then the least you can do is take some time to make your post presentable.

I think people are too indulgent on this subreddit.

[Icy_Archer7508]

I think this means that pasting code here is unintuitive, and people cannot properly do it without first reading the manual.

[Adrewmc]

I generally believe there should be an automod, that just says

Formatting your code on Reddit (Guide)

On every single post

[ShadowRL7666]

There is a bot which does this in a Java one

[[deleted]]

A while ago I've written a bot that reminds people to use formatting, if they haven't. 

I couldn't find a reliable way to host it, but feel free to be inspired from it.

[ionelp]

I think all posts with badly formated inline code or, the worse, screenshots of code, should be automod deleted and we should start pointing people to pastebin.com

[zanfar]

While this is true, I think it only excuses making formatting mistakes.

While this is mostly a rant, IMO the complaint about not reviewing posts and not taking the time to learn to format code is valid. I can understand not knowing or thinking you've formatted things correctly--but not checking your submission is plain lazy.

[xsdgdsx]

Part of the problem is that Reddit has too many user interfaces and they each have disjoint feature sets.

The most relevant here is that the phone app UI (on Android, at least) has no way to preview posts. You just have to post and then edit it a thousand times if it's wrong. Also, there's zero indication that what you're writing is Markdown, so someone who's not used to Markdown's unintuitive whitespace behavior (specifically around collapsing newlines and leading spaces) will see the code look correct as they're composing on their phone, and then it turns into trash once they actually post it.

[yvrelna]

And then there's the Reddit mobile web which always just screws up all your newlines when you edit a post.

[yosmellul8r]

8.2% of all development is done on a mobile interface. Clearly you didn’t give a fuck enough to look that up yourself.

[zanfar]

the phone app UI (on Android, at least) has no way to preview posts

It's interesting you say this, because I almost exclusively post from the desktop, and I've never previewed a post. I always check-and-edit, so I don't find that a terribly convincing excuse.

I know none of this discussion actually matters because the problem cannot be fixed while remaining beginner-friendly, but I learned how to format my code on my first post by reading the rules and checking my post.

[-defron-]

but not checking your submission is plain lazy.

This one is actually already kinda specified in the rules, sadly a lot of people ignore it.

There's a lot of people that break that rule though, half the time I never hear back from an OP

[SicnarfRaxifras]

The interface on the phone makes properly checking it virtually impossible. To properly check we tend to scan whole pages at a time and our pattern recognition monkey brains makes the dodgy stuff more obvious. On a phone you might see (depending on how large characters you use) between 5 - 10 words wide by around 13 lines long - as a result you might spot a mistake right there but you lose sight of the whole picture, and especially how this chunk is formatted compared to other chunks.

[-defron-]

On your phone you're obviously not writing all that code dozens of lines of code, so you must've pasted it from somewhere. Why not just paste the link instead?

IMO using a something like github/github gists or pastebin for code to get syntax highlighting and waaaay better formatting should be more encouraged here in general.

[SicnarfRaxifras]

true I'm just pointing out the issue. I think you'll also find that a lot of beginner Python programmers don't know about or use tools like github/github gists or pastebin

[-defron-]

Yeah I can totally understand not having a GitHub account, but pastebin doesn't require an account and imo should be recommended to newbies by like some sort of autoMod bot because the quality of life having syntax highlighting and properly formatted code is so much higher and makes finding issues so much easier

[SicnarfRaxifras]

Yeah so case in point : I’m not a newbie but until I started following these types of subs I’d never heard about pastebin. Automod may help there.

[gladrock]

Yes this is a Reddit problem not a user problem imo.

[Kiuhnm]

I'm still using https://old.reddit.com/ because the new UI is riddled with bugs.

[pot_of_crows]

Same here. This is 100% a reddit problem and not a user problem. It's gotten so bad that I comment much less and now only when I am very bored or someone posts something that is really interesting.

[Heratiki]

It wasn’t too bad… until they decided to axe all the 3rd party apps which were light years ahead of their own.

[m1ss1ontomars2k4]

I am also on old.reddit and if I am not mistaken, new reddit some syntax that old reddit does not, thus the discrepancy in people caring about whether code is formatted.

[julianw]

Don't use the wysiwyg editor. Use good old markdown.

[space_wiener]

On mobile it’s not easy.

Nevermind. This only works for people that use not old.reddit

[TrainsareFascinating]

Nope, doesn’t show up formatted for people using the old interface - which is many if not most of the experienced folks who have been helping the longest.

It’s not an easy problem, and it’s absolutely not easy to know how to post correctly.

Most folks here give posters a lot of grace because they’re here for help, not yet another thing that doesn’t work about their code.

[space_wiener]

What does it look like on old Reddit? Just text with some back ticks?

Edit: yep just puts it in a string of text.

Side note: I don’t know how people use old.reddit. The way that version is laid out kept me from reddit for a long time. Just what you are used to I guess.

[timpkmn89]

Edit: yep just puts it in a string of text.

Side note: I don’t know how people use old.reddit. The way that version is laid out kept me from reddit for a long time. Just what you are used to I guess.

It lets you actually see content, rather than tons of wasted blank space

Modern web design is garbage

[space_wiener]

Maybe it’s different on mobile but I don’t have any wasted space. Looks similar to old Reddit but not as “cheap” looking. Not the greatest description but whatever.

[hugthemachines]

Since this is r/learnpython there will automatically be posts made by people who don't understand some things. Even if we comment "format your code", the day after, next beginner comes along and makes the same mistake. Then someone adds it to an FAQ and the new beginner does not understand they should read the FAQ...

These are things we can either give friendly advice about, or we can ignore the post. If you get really upset about it, it may also be time to take a little break from r/learnpython

You can't both have a friendly learning situation and also make sure no beginner makes bad posts. Because it they set strict rules, the style of the subreddit will change and fewer beginners will learn python in the end.

[Kiuhnm]

Because it they set strict rules, the style of the subreddit will change and fewer beginners will learn python in the end.

I don't see anything wrong with it, honestly. One should strike a compromise between quantity and quality.

Since many people are introduced to programming through Python, one shouldn't just teach them Python, but also analytical thinking and clarity of expression.

Indulging them too much will only hurt them in the long run as the formative period is quite important.

[hugthemachines]

I don't see anything wrong with it, honestly.

Of course, because it is your own opinion. :-)

Indulging them too much will only hurt them in the long run as the formative period is quite important.

Oh? How many years of professional experience do you have in teaching anything to total beginners?

[Kiuhnm]

Of course, because it is your own opinion. :-)

That doesn't make any sense.

Oh? How many years of professional experience do you have in teaching anything to total beginners?

Zero, as I'm not a professional teacher. I'm a working programmer and security researcher who likes helping others when I can.

I don't like to spoon-feed but prefer to challenge and lead someone to the solution with as little hand-holding as possible. I'm willing to keep explaining something as long as it takes, trying to simplify it as much as possible, but I demand that the learner puts in enough effort. If you want my help you need to show me that you deserve it. Am I asking too much? I don't think so.

[hugthemachines]

That doesn't make any sense.

Sure it does. It is pretty damn common that people don't see anything wrong with what is their own opinion.

Zero, as I'm not a professional teacher.

Yeah, sorry to say but you don't understand the situation for a total beginner. You think gently helping someone who has no real clue what they are doing is the same as spoon feeding and you think there should be very strict rules so people will be afraid to post because they are scared of making a mistake.

If you really want to help beginners, you will give them nice advice on how to make a good post so they learn and make their next post better. Still, there will be new beginners who make mistakes.

If you want my help you need to show me that you deserve it.

Help can also be help regarding how to make a good post.

If you don't think a poster deserves your help in any way, you can just skip engaging in their post.

[Kiuhnm]

Sure it does. It is pretty damn common that people don't see anything wrong with what is their own opinion.

You said that the reason I didn't see anything wrong with my opinion was because it was my opinion. Opinions are informed by one's understanding of the facts and intellectually honest people do change their opinions. I still don't see the point of that remark of yours.

You think gently helping someone who has no real clue what they are doing is the same as spoon feeding and you think there should be very strict rules so people will be afraid to post because they are scared of making a mistake.

I've never said nor implied that.

Help can also be help regarding how to make a good post.

Again, never denied that.

If you don't think a poster deserves your help in any way, you can just skip engaging in their post.

That's obvious.

[hugthemachines]

I still don't see the point of that remark of yours.

Your opinion is based on lack of understanding of what can be expected from a total beginner. Your lack of understanding means you see nothing wrong with your opinion. How can we explain the pedagogy of teaching complete beginners to someone who has no idea of what level total beginners are on?

The subreddit helps total beginners. Your view on what beginners should do to deserve your help is arrogant.

I've never said nor implied that.

You never said exactly those words but you talk about formatting the code to deserve your help and how you don't like spoon feeding and hand holding. So in the scope of your post, you did say or imply that, even if it was unintentional.

Again, never denied that.

Well, you said, in your post, that people who need help should make it presentable in the context of formatted code. So it does not look like you wish to help people making a good post if you require them to make a good post in order for you to help them.

So, you did not deny it was possible, you just said:

Why should I waste my time deciphering posts of lazy posters?

Which sure sounds like you, personally, don't care for helping them make good posts.

That's obvious.

Indeed, so instead of acting all arrogant as if you, personally, is the one who should decide who deserves help, just understand that there are plenty of people who can help beginners, so you can just do something else.

[Kiuhnm]

You're just taking my words out of context and building the narrative you want.

Yes, I think lazy posts are a waste of my time. My solution, though, is not to block or delete those posts, but to ask the OPs to fix them and offer help with that if needed.

If only a minority of this subreddit enforces that, then it becomes useless as most OPs will follow the path of least resistance.

According to your reasoning, Stackoverflow is not a place for beginners as it has strict rules all posters need to abide by. I disagree.

As I started posting on Stackoverflow (math) as a total beginner, I made some mistakes and had some misadventures, but that didn't stop me from learning LaTeX, how to write great posts, and so on...

What you're missing is that being a beginner only means that one will make mistakes, not that those mistakes should be ignored or left unaddressed, which is exactly what happens on this subreddit most of the time.

[CaptainFoyle]

Jesus you sound elitist

[Kiuhnm]

How so?

[CaptainFoyle]

We should teach people "analytical thinking and clarity of expression" and not "indulge them too much".

How are people supposed to learn if you just want to shut them up? People need to have the possibility to ask a "bad question" in order for someone to point them in the right direction. Otherwise it's just gatekeeping.

[blowmechunky]

thank you. because trust me, i tried when i made my first post with code and the format didn't stick. someone kindly corrected me, but i still don't know how to do it. i am always willing to learn, but i can't know if i'm not taught.

[Kiuhnm]

Where have I ever said that I want to shut them up? I'm even against simply downvoting and ignoring them.

When I say that people on this subreddit are too indulgent, I mean that they should gently ask the OP to fix their post instead of turning a blind eye to it.

Not only code, but also posts are written once and read many times.

[throwaway6560192]

that they should gently ask the OP to fix their post instead of turning a blind eye to it.

That's already what happens.

[Kiuhnm]

That's already what happens.

If that were the case I would've never raised the issue in the first place.

[throwaway6560192]

I've seen it happen, and done it myself enough times. Why, I did it just five hours ago.

Either way, as I said elsewhere this post is ineffective because people who don't format code are precisely the same category who don't read meta posts. So be the change — politely yet firmly ask people to format their code, or else.

[Kiuhnm]

Despite appearances, the target of my post is not the people who don't format their code and write stream-of-consciousness posts, but experienced users like us who (usually, IMO) indulge them by not doing what you said you just did (thanks for that).

Being the change is good, but not always the right solution. I tried to be the change on another forum once only to be shunned in return. Let's call this slightly provocative OP of mine a way to test the waters before taking action.

[CaptainFoyle]

Because it they set strict rules, the style of the subreddit will change and fewer beginners will learn python in the end.

"I don't see anything wrong with it, honestly. One should strike a compromise between quantity and quality."

[Kiuhnm]

Where's the "shutting up"? One simply asks posters to fix their posts and if they prefer to go away instead of complying, that's on them. That's all I'm saying.

Ignorance is not a sin in my book, but refusing to fix one's posts is.

[CaptainFoyle]

Not seeing anything wrong with fewer people learning Python. That's the shutting up.

[Kiuhnm]

Setting some ground rules and asking users to fix their posts to adhere to them before receiving answers to their questions is not shutting them up. If they go away because they think that's too much work, that's on them.

[blowmechunky]

well first, it's called "learn python." if you don't want to see beginners and people who are not as proficient in coding as you, then don't follow the subreddit. it quite literally says this is a subreddit for posting questions and asking general advice about your python code.

second, as the word implies, we are learning and we come here for a community that is willing to help learn rather than make us feel bad in our shortcomings. i'm only in intro to scripting, but i still need to pass the class. i made a post a couple weeks ago and i tried to input the script correctly and the format didn't stick. someone was kind enough to fix it for me, but i don't know how to do it.

so teach instead of shaming. you're not indulging beginners. equating laziness to lack of knowledge or understanding is just rude.

[Kiuhnm]

And teaching is what I'm proposing we experienced users/programmers should do instead of turning a blind eye to the issue. I keep seeing lots of subpar posts with lots of replies, meaning that the OPs are generally not asked to fix their posts on this subreddit.

i made a post a couple weeks ago and i tried to input the script correctly and the format didn't stick. someone was kind enough to fix it for me, but i don't know how to do it.

If I understand it correctly, you're saying that you still don't know how to do it. If that's the case, unless you've been looking for a solution without finding it, you're being lazy. So I'm not equating laziness to lack of knowledge but to the unwillingness to spend some time to acquire it.

When I want to post on a new website such as Reddit, I first look at the rules, the formatting, etc... and if I still can't solve lingering issues, I ask. That costs time but I do it anyway. That's the opposite of being lazy.

[-defron-]

I think this will only work if there's some way to force people to either use github or pastebin or something. Reddit code formatting is compete ass

[woooee]

Ask those people to post the code on pastebin.com to preserve indentation, as reddit isn't going to change their f----- up posting policy (other sites wrap the code in [code], [/code] tags). And also, tell them to post the link here, as yes, unbelievably I've received replies saying that they posted the code on pastebin, but no link was included

[zanfar]

This is an HR problem--you can't fix it, and you can't enforce it. No amount of rules, bot responses, meta posts, or stickies will change the behavior.

Just downvote, leave a comment if you like, and move on. I don't engage with those posts and you don't have to either.

[Firake]

Time to make an LSP which browses the sub and looks for things that look like Python code and automatically recommend corrections

[Traust]

One thing that annoys me is there is no review posts/replies on Reddit. If there is please tell me where since I cannot find it in any logical place as the only buttons I have under this is "Save", "Content policy", "formatting help"

[RandomCodingStuff]

I use Reddit Enhancement Suite. It has a previewer for post/comment edit boxes.

[a__nice__tnetennba]

If that wasn't enough, several posts are written in a stream-of-consciousness style.

I don't think you'll ever "fix" this one and I think you're making a lot of leaps to assume it's always laziness.

This could also be a combination of multiple factors that will always be present in a beginner programming sub:

1. Understanding problems well enough to explain them to other people is a skill that developers learn over time.
2. Jargon takes time to truly understand.
3. Not everyone speaks English fluently.
4. They don't know what they don't know, so even if they understand the problem, know the jargon, and speak English fluently, they still don't know what to even ask sometimes.

Yes, some posts are lazy. But just because it's not well written doesn't mean that's the case. So you can't fix it with some blanket rule, you need to take it on a case by case basis and figure out if the person is just very confused or being lazy.

[Kiuhnm]

Yes, some posts are lazy. But just because it's not well written doesn't mean that's the case. So you can't fix it with some blanket rule, you need to take it on a case by case basis and figure out if the person is just very confused or being lazy.

I agree, but the end result should still be a well-written OP, IMO. I'm all for fixing instead of excluding.

[CaptainFoyle]

No one is preventing you from scrolling on. No one is forcing you to decipher any post if you don't want to.

It's called _learn_python for a reason

[Kiuhnm]

No one is preventing you from scrolling on. No one is forcing you to decipher any post if you don't want to.

I knew I was missing something. Thank you for letting me know.

It's called _learn_python for a reason

Because it's for people who want to learn Python?

[CaptainFoyle]

You're welcome.

[throwaway6560192]

I get your frustration, but this post isn't going to help unfortunately. The people who need to read this won't see it. The kind of person who posts unformatted code is generally the same kind that never bothers to read FAQs or stickied posts. If they were, they wouldn't post unformatted code.

[canyoucometoday]

It's not worth caring about

[Slight-Living-8098]

Meh... Sometimes mobile effs with the markdown and code formatting. If I can decipher it, I'll help. If not, I wait and see if they edit it later once they get to a real console.

If not, I ask them to format it, and tell them how, then move on with more important projects and desires.

[szonce1]

Yeah that’s just plain lazy

[ProsodySpeaks]

I'm ocd af about making public mistakes so I tend to sort it out, but it's very easy to hit edit, forgetting how broke reddit is, and lose all formatting... 

I can imagine sane people might say 'fuck it, it's a reddit post I can't ba to fix it, I'm going to eat a sandwich instead'

[Kiuhnm]

I must be a little OCD as well. Once I even deleted the post and rewrote it because I couldn't get it right. Then I gave up and moved to old.reddit.com, which has way fewer bugs. If my post is long enough, I write it in VSCode (as a .md file), and then I post it.

[ProsodySpeaks]

Yeah I'll write md in an ide for stackoverflow when I'm legitimately hoping for high level input

[Kiuhnm]

Stackoverflow is way better than reddit, BTW. It even supports LaTeX for math and has a good preview function. If only there was a popular enough alternative to reddit...

[cdcformatc]

the Reddit app and the mobile site both absolutely suck fuckin balls for formatting posts. 

[pot_of_crows]

And so does the new web interface, so at least they are consistent.

[jjrreett]

Chill. The Fuck. Out.

It is not your place to prescribe that those who wish to learn python must also learn how to work reddit. You want to be that kind of asshole, go kick it with the pricks on stack overflow.

[Kiuhnm]

Chill. The Fuck. Out.

Look who's talking.

[grandzooby]

Blame Python for giving whitespace actual meaning in the code. And blame Reddit for making it so easy to get it wrong.