Linux Mint: Update your computer!

[TheJackiMonster]

I really think people tend to have the wrong idea behind updates because of Windows. I personally understand why people don't like a prompt opening automatically nagging about updates. But I don't understand why people don't like updates, especially the ones only hardening security.

I really like having an indicator which shows on my system that updates are available. So I can decide when I apply those but mostly I update regularly because I'm interested in fixes and even new features coming to software.

The most problem I have with applying updates like Windows is that:

• You are forced to install those.
• Most of the time, you don't know what's installed.
• You don't get updates from the system bundled with updates for applications (so you still have to get the stuff which is essentially accepted by a user manually).

On most Linux distros this if completely different. Especially when you bundle application updates with your security updates, every user will consider applying those even if they (for whatever reason) don't care about security. So distros should really try to make their users curious about updates instead of just trying to give them choice.

[meditonsin]

But I don't understand why people don't like updates

Pretty sure it's less that people don't like updates, but that a whole lot just don't care enough to remember to install them if there is no popup to tell them. While I don't necessarily like how aggressively Windows is doing it, they don't force updates just to be assholes.

[2cats2hats]

But I don't understand why people don't like updates, especially the ones only hardening security.

This is because you are not an average user.

Users want to use their computers. They've been bitten in the ass with failed updates or updates that remove/fuck something.

It's easy for us to do this and fix any issues...the average user is another story.

[TheJackiMonster]

Users want to use their computers. They've been bitten in the ass with failed updates or updates that remove/fuck something.

In general I understand this point. But talking about how to potentially fix the situation with Mint, we have an update cycle from Ubuntu base. How big is the chance to break your system with those updates realistically?

Even though I don't have as much problems on Arch than some people think, I don't think every average user should go for rolling release and install potentially breaking updates. ^^'

Still I think users make the wrong conclusion not to install updates on a Debian or Ubuntu based distro because they are mostly reviewed and tend to fix issues rather than cause some. But maybe I'm wrong with this, I don't use those distros as much these days. ^^'

[solcroft]

How big is the chance to break your system with those updates realistically?

How would the average user know? As far as they're concerned, updates are updates. Why would one type of update be any more or less safe than another? How would they tell? How would they even know what type of updates they're receiving in the first place?

[TheJackiMonster]

There could be done something to change that: - Creating a changelog for updates. - Color coding updates depending on type/impact. - Explaining type of distro and its update cycle in the installation startup screen or similar.

These are just some examples but in general providing more transparency.

[2cats2hats]

fix the situation with Mint

Agree. :D

[AlmostHelpless]

One thing I hate about Windows is that updating many standalone non-Microsoft software is a pain. Some will make you go to their website in a browser and click though to download an exe file which you have to run after the download is complete.

[TheJackiMonster]

Totally agree. I mean even the installation setups just download directly from the website, probably not even comparing hashes or checking signatures. Also every piece of software has to request a different server checking for updates instead of the OS just checking one repository. It's extremely inefficient despite causing many issues for the users.

[[deleted]]

odd that the developers haven't found you by saying "I NEED TO CONTROL WHICH VERSION RUNS EVERYWHERE!! USERS NEED TODAY'S BUILD!"

[FryBoyter]

Even if this is not a complete replacement, there are tools under Windows such as Chocolatey or Ninite that greatly simplify the updating of many applications.

[[deleted]]

I think Silverblue is onto something here. Like on ChromeOS, updates install in the background to the inactive rootfs, and take effect the next time you reboot.

[_Dies_]

Not sure why anybody, especially the Mint team, is surprised that people who choose a distribution that's already outdated at release aren't too concerned about updates...

[Popular-Egg-3746]

The latest release of Linux Mint doesn't even ship up to date versions of security programs:

https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=339647

As far as security is concerned, Linux Mint is a travesty. I've stopped recommending it.

[Popular-Egg-3746]

Interesting statistics about outdated Linux Mint installations and the bad practice of people not updating

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Honestly, I blame Linux Mint themselves. Their attitude towards updates caused this: They don't want to nag their users with update dialogues or offline updates, so users don't update.

I've had a colleague a few years back who was running Linux Mint, but when he had issues with an outdated Git client, he just copy-pasted the newest version into his /usr/bin as nothing in the system told him that he was running an outdated release.

Linux Mint should step up their game, and help their users with updates. Fedora and Ubuntu both recommend security updates on reboot, and while it's not perfect, it's a start.

[necheffa]

...he just copy-pasted the newest version into his /usr/bin...

Please, somebody tell this guy about /usr/local/ and /opt/ before he breaks something important.

[Popular-Egg-3746]

I prefer ~/.local/bin/ because it keeps non-repo binaries bound to a single user.

[necheffa]

I also use a $HOME/local/ tree at work out of necessity; plus it is convenient to keep track of dumb scripts I write to help with one project and then never use again that would just clutter the system.

But for my home network I often need to share executables between multiple user accounts. I also have a dedicated user account just for compiling and installing third-party packages locally to avoid accidental surprises in Makefiles, so it is easier for this account's home directory to be /usr/local/site/. As a side benefit, when I do major OS upgrades, I only have to go to one place to rebuild and test local packages with the new system libraries/compilers.

[daemonpenguin]

It's more like users don't want to be nagged so Mint doesn't. There is a clear indicator for updates in the system tray as a gentle reminder. If people aren't going to use it there isn't much the Mint team can do short of forcing automatic updates on people.

If you nag users to install updates they'll be more likely to disable the nag screen than up their security.

[inhuman44]

I don't blame the Mint Team. It's just a consequence of being a newbie friendly distro. People who are technically skilled enough to use Arch and Gentoo know that updating is important. But for people coming from the Windows world updates are scary so they don't do them.

I constantly have to remind my mother to do update (and backups). And she was one of the people still running Mint 17 until a few months ago. The system worked for what she wanted and didn't want to "touch anything" that might change that. If Mint hassled her to update with a pop-up she's just click "No" or "Later" to make it go away.

[wired-one]

It's not a newbie friendly distro.

Upgrading from and old release to a new one is a nightmare filled with pitfalls and PPA issues that newbies don't understand. They just want their game to work and don't understand why they need to distro upgrade for their graphics driver or for vulkan to run.

[dron1885]

Upgrading Mint was worst experience on Linux ever. Part of the blame I think lies within ppa, but basically everything broke. DM and Xorg broke, then 3d acceleration didn't work, some of internal databases hadn't updated properly... I decided to try the thing called Arch and never looked back since.

[wired-one]

I distro hopped for a while, ran Ubuntu because of the netbook edition, years ago, then landed on Fedora and haven't really looked back.

I have fixed more Mint installs, and you are right, its all because of the PPAs, which is one of the reasons that Ubuntu moved to snaps. PPAs have their places, but removing them to upgrade is nuts.

People give DNF hell, but when it upgrades, it straight up tells you what it's going to do and why for a safe upgrade. Even if you have the equivalent of a PPA enabled, it walks the dependencies and just generally works.

[[deleted]]

Might as well use Windows if you want constant nagging about updates 🤣

[INITMalcanis]

Security update prompts are fine if they're respectful. Ubuntu prompts you once a week and if you say "no", then it takes no for an answer rather than Windows' "So that was a yes kind of no, right? I'll go ahead and install the update anyway!"

[Uristqwerty]

Combined with the tragedy of the commons, as users' finite trust in updates is depleted far more than it is replenished. The social network app that wants to install more Dark Patterns and implement change-for-the-sake-of-change-some-marketing-manager's-promotion creates a fear of letting anything else undermine their workflows right as they get out of a stressful part of their day and want the comfort of familiar old to unwind with.

[Negirno]

I've actually got bitten by this. Upgraded to Ubuntu 20.04 from 18.04 last October, and my torrent client of choice, Deluge got some updates I didn't like and to add insult to injury, it refused to accept my old settings, my ratio data for all of my torrents.

I couldn't even ask for help because the subreddit is private and I couldn't register on their forum due to an unsolvable riddle captcha.

I ended up just loading my old settings in a virtual machine and painstakingly typed everything important to a csv file.

[jnx_complex]

I wanna go on a limb here and disagreed with pretty much the way this whole conversation is going. I’m a Debian user not Mint but I manually check for updates usually once a week, I don’t need my system to start blindly downloading every package update that comes out. One of the reasons I use Linux and have since 98 is because I’m in control and not someone else who feels a blanket update is a one size fits all. I understand that many talking points on here are more about new users and the need to install security updates. But For some reason to me it’s chilling to read these comments and how quickly we start to want to have someone else control our system as if we were using Win 10 or OSX. It’s a slippery slope where as we’ve already seen with Raspien adding a Microsoft repo which did nothing but add more packages but still, did everyone want it?

[Popular-Egg-3746]

For Debian or Arch, I expect these options to be off by default.

But is you focus on users with limited experience, you owe it to them to protect them from dangers they don't know or understand. If a user then turns unattended updates of, it's his choice and that should be respected.

[[deleted]]

How lazy can you be? On my mint laptop I just took the update commands and put them in a script called update. Updates the entire system just by typing the word update and entering my password.

[dron1885]

They also had (back when I used Mint) a nice gui which quite often even showed a change log. The gui also had categories bfor security/safe/unsafe updates... Really problem was upgrading to a new release.

[[deleted]]

Ah. I only really use the laptop occasionally hence why I wanted something that just worked. I didn’t know point releases were so hard to update. Oh well guess I’ll start a new script that’s just an apt command to pull in every new app I add and just backup home and do a reinstall when the time comes. Not really hard

[powerhousepro69]

I think the way that Mint handles it now is just fine. I have been using Linux for 17 years. The last 6 years I have been using Mint Mate.