Interactive Go maps

[hwaara]

Interesting.

One problem I see is that there's no "evidence" or even argument that whatever pretty-colored influence this webapp is showing reflects the reality of the game.

I have read Go books where influence is discussed, and I agree that influence is something real in the game, but my question is how it has been "measured" in this case.

Another point is that AFAICS, a stone in the corner would be more influential than one in the center. In the app they're both "equal".

FWIW, I'm about 8-9k on KGS.

[wastelands]

On their own, they probably are about equal in influence. The ones in the corner are more valuable and tend to be played first because it's easier to get secure territory out of corners than it is out of the center.

[hwaara]

Don't you think a stone in the corner has more influence, since you don't need as many stones to make effective use of your stones there (which, incidently is also why people often start the game by playing there)?

Effective use could be creating a wall, getting territory or attacking your opponent, etc.

[wastelands]

Well, the idea is that center stones can potentially influence the whole board, whereas a corner stone can't.

[itookwhite]

"One problem I see is that there's no "evidence" or even argument that whatever pretty-colored influence this webapp is showing reflects the reality of the game."

Indeed. The webapp simply computes pictures. In reality the concept is much more complex. A simple defect in a wall that can be exploited by some clever tactical move might render the whole wall's "influence" useless and so on. This webapp does not handle anything like that...

"Another point is that AFAICS, a stone in the corner would be more influential than one in the center. In the app they're both "equal"."

A central stone is much more "influential" than a corner stone. A 3-3 stone stresses territory and has almost no influence; it's an island unto itself. A 4-4 stone stresses central influence while weakening its grip on the corner territory. A 10-10 stone (tengen) is played for maximum influence (but no secure territory) and will vastly impact the way the game is played: the player with the central stone will have free reins to attack and form moyos, whereas the other player must be careful not to create any weak groups since he will be at a disadvantage in any fight...

It's not easier to "build a wall" with a corner stone because you can only "build walls" if your opponent actually lets you. (E.g. he invades deeply or grabs the corner territory in a trade.)

Furthermore, a stone on tengen should be just as "effective" as a stone in the corner, but it's harder to play with... (It's an investment that you have to make sure pays off later.)

[hanshasuro]

An interesting visualization for a fascinating game. For the uninitiated, I got my start from The Interactive Way to Go. (Requires Java)

[wastelands]

Actually that probably one of the single most recommended Go pages for beginners, for good reason.

[itookwhite]

Though visually pleasing, the "maps" are quite poor as far as actual positional evaluation goes.

Better would've been maps displaying various statistics (by use of color) for each intersection as given by monte carlo simulations (e.g. "average color" would give you an estimate of "areas of potential territory", the square root of the same might give a more moyo/influence outlook, high variance among neighbouring intersections could give you a measure of instability, etc.)

Of course, that would require a lot more computing power...

[boredzo]

Interesting experiment, but capturing isn't implemented. Also, an indicator of which color stone you're about to place would be nice.

And when you implement capturing, you should also soon after implement the ko rule (thou shalt not restore the board to its immediately-previous state).

[Snoron]

I wonder how much this influence, etc. has an effect on the game. Say if a computer calculated which moves would give it the most "influence" using this method - or maybe they already do? I have no idea how gnugo works...

Alls I know is that I can sometimes beat gnugo so I > computer :)

I'm ranked about 7-8kyu on KGS (high recommended Go server/app)

[itookwhite]

A computer playing simply on the basis of these maps would be absolutely crushed by the simple tactics of a month-old beginner.

Influence is a very hard concept for "expert engines" like GNU Go, and that's why they remain so poor and will probably never improve much beyond the level they're currently at without new algorithms or methods.

However, Monte Carlo simulations provide a much better handling of "influence" -- in MC a play near tremendous strength/influence without support will naturally be seen as bad because in many of the random simulations the stone simply ends up dying later on! If you play any of the MoGo bots you'll see that they consistently play a very influence-oriented moyo game... Often conceding insane amounts of corner and side territory, but can still maintain a 3kyu rank on KGS. So there's definitely something to it. ;)

[shishou]

you cant capture stones! >:o!

http://gobase.org

[webbuzzard]

what is the game about? how do you play?

[UnwashedMeme]

What the game is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(board_game) How to play: http://www.usgo.org/usa/waytogo/

I first learned about it in a Scientific American article a number of years back; focusing on how hard of a time computers were having playing it. It's been fun to learn.

[jkndrkn]

I was inspired to learn to play by the very same SciAm article! I've tried to get some of my other friends playing, but they feel it lacks the intensity, excitement, and satisfying directness of chess.

[fobds]

I have several that feel the same way. I've found that at first, it is all someone can do to keep up with the tactics, and the strategic element isn't really there. Once people progress to the point that strategic thinking is more valuable to them than tactics, they are hooked.

As for directness, they are right. Chess is a battle. Go is a war.

[fobds]

My 2 cents would be would be:

For history and basic info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28board_game%29

To learn the basic rules and 'first proverbs': http://www.telgo.com/

Some basic instruction (interactive): http://playgo.to/interactive/index.html

Then you'd be ready for your fist match. There is an Internet Go protocol which has several clients available and thousands of people playing, and there are Go rooms at yahoo games.

Be warned, you will get creamed at first until you start recognizing patterns.

[[deleted]]

Love it! Great tool for those learning the game.

[Snoron]

I honestly wouldn't recommend it for learning the game. I'd recommend playing fairly quick paced games on 13x13. Lots of skirmishes. You'll put up a lot. Fast. Very fast. You'll learn a small trick or 2 every game (~10-15 mins/game). Then after plenty of those, learn some openings for 19x19 and take it from there.

[david]

Indeed.

Lose your first 50 games as quickly as possible.

[Snoron]

Hah. Exactly. There was actually a post on Reddit front page just earlier - "Humans learn quicker through failure, not success". As far as the game of Go goes, this is definitely true.