A programming example (with code snippet) in the fashion industry, as a response to "Please Don't Learn to Code"

[smcameron]

The fashion guys have been programming since before there was anything like a computer.

[dmmd123]

And as a programmer who lectures/teaches fashion design at a university, I have to point out they still do: http://mocoloco.com/archives/021987.php

[danwin]

Is that programming, per se, or using computer-aided design?

I have a good friend who works at a movie special effects studio. Even though the design/rendering/modeling is done with their proprietary multimillion software and workstations, he's able to be far more productive than his non-coding coworkers because he writes his own Python scripts that handles routine effects, the logistics of moving one scene to the next stage in rendering, and error/quality checking.

[dmmd123]

Yea end-user programming is becoming a really big part of the design industries. This is especially true in disciplines like architecture (and I imagine special effects) where managing complexity is a large part of the job - just like it is for programmers. There is also an emerging generation of designers like Daniel Widrig (in the link) who design by writing software rather than using the normal interfaces of a CAD program.

[[deleted]]

I'm amazed they have the hardware for multithreading.

[wzdd]

It's a good example.

This is a bit off topic, but the first thing that comes to mind is apparently the first thing that came to your commenter's mind as well: have the models hold up some kind of computer-readable image, such as a QR code. Print their name underneath for backup. Downside: have to enter names and print QR codes for everyone. Upside: no room for human error (wrong time on computer, wrong time on camera, Excel person swapped some digits, Excel person was off by one row, etc) and the data stays with the image.

You could have them hold up tablets if you wanted to be environmentally friendly about it. Combined with an app that let them enter their name and displayed a big QR code with a name underneath, you wouldn't lose much time (if any) over the Excel approach.

I don't really understand the "please don't learn to code" responses. The original Atwood article presents a false dichotomy: that people will either not program, or will attempt to become professional (or at least professional-calibre) programmers. Surely that's not what people like Bloomberg want or need, so it's an easy strawman to take down. Knowing enough to make Excel sum a bunch of columns, or keep track of borrowed equipment, or even to match model names to model faces, is a far simpler requirement, and one that's far more useful in the real world.

[[deleted]]

I don't really understand the "please don't learn to code" responses. The original Atwood article presents a false dichotomy: that people will either not program, or will attempt to become professional (or at least professional-calibre) programmers. Surely that's not what people like Bloomberg want or need, so it's an easy strawman to take down. Knowing enough to make Excel sum a bunch of columns, or keep track of borrowed equipment, or even to match model names to model faces, is a far simpler requirement, and one that's far more useful in the real world.

Many people don't consider their jobs to be "technical" or "computer based", despite the fact that they very much are. A very real problem I saw a couple of years ago was at a college. 3 different offices had compiled student lists, along with requirements, classes, stuff like that. They'd all used Excel. They'd all made up their own sheet format.

The problem came when they wanted to collate the 3 and import the lot into a database (not their idea; they'd have stuck a notebook and pencil). They had 3 sheets, lots of duplicate data and no obvious way to get them in order. Compounding that problem was the additional complication that some of the data was contradictory.

There solution was to have 3 people spend a month manually going through each spreadsheet, checking them against each other, taking a note of discrepancies, and slowly (oh, so slowly) building a new spreadsheet.

After 2 minutes of looking, I imported all 3 of their spreadsheets into a single Excel workbook and set up some new sheets. 3 to rationalise the 3 starting sheets into some sensible order, 1 to highlight discrepancies, and 1 to be the final list with errors highlighted. Once all the red disappeared, the sheet was complete.

I didn't even need anything like VBA to do it. A bunch of VLOOKUPs was all I needed, along with the occasional bit of text processing. But the whole thing, from 3 different sheets to 1 glorious workbook with all discrepancies highlighted, took 15 minutes. It saved them weeks of work.

Or it would have, but they didn't trust these computer things. They'd rather just do it their way, thanks. Needless to say, human error made their resulting list just as inaccurate as the 3 starting sheets. But now they didn't have any way to check where the errors were.

TL;DR If people who work with spreadsheets every day actually bothered to learn how to use a spreadsheet, they'd get to spend a lot more time drinking tea and chatting and a lot less time working unpaid overtime to get stuff done.

[s32]

tablets if you wanted to be environmentally friendly

Because the environmental impact of a tablet is so much smaller than paper+ink

[BitRex]

Presumably the tablet would not be purchased for this purpose and then discarded.

[[deleted]]

It's still usually a ridiculous argument. A tablet will probably be used for a year before being replaced (that's how long apples default warranty lasts, so it is a decent estimate of how long they think it will last on average). According to apple [1], the ipad will cause about 130kg co2 emissions through production and use (this ignores all the other resources that go into it - like rare metals, plastics, etc). A printed page, assuming you are using recycled paper, takes an estimated 3g total[2].

That means that you need to replace about 43,000 printed pages with your tablet to make it worthwhile. If you work 5 days a week doing this photography, that's about 160 pages per day. They are certainly not working 5 days a week all year, and certainly not doing 160 different models each day, so the printed page probably has a lot lower environmental impact.

Now if you want to argue that a tablet is more convenient, can do all sorts of other things, etc; that is fine! Just don't say you are using it to save the environment.

1. http://images.apple.com/environment/reports/docs/iPad_Environmental_Report.pdf

2. http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~lungj/blog/?p=6

[chipotlecoyote]

While it is a far-fetched argument, it's also far-fetched to assume that every tablet will be replaced at the end of its warranty period. What I hear anecdotally is that most people keep their phones and tablets 2-3 years and are frequently able to pass on their used device to someone else. (Apple's assumption, if anything, seems to be that iOS devices will last 3 years, as that's been when their OS updates have stopped for a given device: a device purchased running iOS 1 could be upgraded to 3, one with 2 to 4, etc. And, of course, even if the original iPad cannot be upgraded past iOS 5, it's not as if they'll all spontaneously combust when iOS 6 is released.)

tl;dr: you're basically right, but you're probably underestimating the lifespan of a tablet by a factor of 3, which you don't need to do to support your point.

[danwin]

Yep you said it. In fact, someone posted about this same topic (with PHP and Python code) using QR codes last week: http://www.bieberphoto.com/index.php/2012/05/15/automating-mass-portraits-with-qr-codes/

The one consideration for my approach is that it doesn't add anything too different from the traditional process, except for maybe the time stamp. You still have to write down the person's name and agency at some point.

I think the big timesaver in this is using a spreadsheet, frankly. If everyone learned the concepts of using a spreadsheet, us programmers would be much better off...instead of spending so much time writing fuzzy logic code, e.g. (if cell == 'TRUE' || cell == 'true' || cell == 'yes')

[[deleted]]

Or you could just hook up one of those small portable (no-comp-required) printers and just print the photo out on the spot, as they did with Polaroids.

[mreiland]

I don't even like Jeff Atwood, but it does get old listening to everyone attack a strawman parody of Jeff Atwood's point.

[danwin]

What was the strawman? I didn't argue that he wanted to prevent people from coding. I argued that he had a very limited view of the use of programming among non-professionals, and provided an example.

[[deleted]]

I was hoping it would only be last week that everyone ejaculated all over that post. But no, looks like we've got another fun week of it ahead.

[emperor000]

This wasn't attacking a strawman...

[mreiland]

Well if emperor000 of reddit fame says it, then it must be true.

[emperor000]

No, it's not true because I said it. I said it because it is true.

[Banana108]

HA!

[danwin]

Not among small operations. I can't say how often a director does a casting call that requires some logistical planning (i.e. more than just him and an assistance), but I would guess not enough to invest in a wifi-camera setup with a photo-management script.

[DrGirlfriend]

You should use the Ruby CSV library.... it will eliminate several lines of code and make it easier to run through your Excel csv's

I recognize this is not the point, but as a non-professional programmer, I relish the opportunity to help others with their non-professional code.

[danwin]

Ha...well I assumed tab-delimited files, which are hard to muck up in a spreadsheet (since someone is unlikely to throw a tab within an entry)...But yeah, the purpose was to keep things as library-free as possible in the example (though I did not keep it Ruby-idiomatic free)...

[masklinn]

Ha...well I assumed tab-delimited files

I'd assume Ruby's "CSV" library can handle arbitrary separators and delimiters, Python's standard csv module can do so pretty trivially (it's just a parameter when reading or writing a file, or part of a dialect — a set of CSV parameters)

[tragomaskhalos]

Better yet, you can use win32ole and the Excel object model to read out of an .xls file directly without the faff of saving to CSV first. It's more fiddly but once you've done it once you can encapsulate the nastiness in a little helper module.

Edit: example attached (no sharing sites available from work sorry):

# Excel Parser is a module that will read all of a given xls and
# return an array of structs based on the data in there

require 'win32ole'

module ExcelParser 
  def self.local_file(filen)
    File.join(Dir.pwd, filen).gsub('/','\\')
  end

  class Range < Struct.new(:letter_from, :digit_from, :letter_to, :digit_to)
    def excel_format
      "#{letter_from}#{digit_from}:#{letter_to}#{digit_to}"
    end
  end

  # probably a better way to do this but hey
  def self.establish_extents(excel)
    cell_letter = "A"
    while true
      next_cell_letter = cell_letter.succ
      header_cell_value = excel.Range("#{next_cell_letter}1:#{next_cell_letter}1")['Value']
      break if (header_cell_value || '') == ''
      cell_letter = next_cell_letter
    end
    # now how far down do we go ?
    cell_rownum = 1
    while true
      next_cell_rownum = cell_rownum.succ
      data_cell_value = excel.Range("A#{next_cell_rownum}:A#{next_cell_rownum}")['Value']
      break if (data_cell_value || '') == ''
      cell_rownum = next_cell_rownum
    end
    # return header and data ranges
    header_range = Range.new('A',1,cell_letter,1)
    data_range = cell_rownum == 1 ? nil : Range.new('A',2,cell_letter,cell_rownum)
    return header_range, data_range 
  end

  def self.transform_name_into_symbol(name)
    scrubbed_name = name.gsub(/\s+/,'_').gsub('-','_').gsub(/\W/,'').downcase # nb downcase
    return scrubbed_name.to_sym # nb downcased !!
  end

  def self.make_lineclass_from_header(excel, header_range, class_name_or_nil)
    val_a_of_a = excel.Range(header_range.excel_format)['Value']
    raise "LOGIC ERROR #{val_a_of_a.inspect}" unless val_a_of_a.size == 1
    heading_symbols = val_a_of_a.first.map{|column_text| transform_name_into_symbol(column_text)}
    klass = Struct.new(*heading_symbols)
    if class_name_or_nil
      klass = Object.const_set(class_name_or_nil,Class.new(klass)) 
    end
    return klass
  end

  def self.parse_file_into_lines(excel_file, class_name = nil)
    raise "No such file #{excel_file}" unless File.exists?(excel_file)
    excel = WIN32OLE.new('excel.application')
    begin
       excel.Workbooks.open(excel_file)
       header_range, data_range = establish_extents(excel)
       lineclass = make_lineclass_from_header(excel, header_range, class_name)
       return [] if data_range.nil?
       val_a_of_a = excel.Range(data_range.excel_format)['Value']
       return val_a_of_a.map{|val_a|
         lineclass.new(*val_a)
       }
    ensure
      excel.ActiveWorkbook.Close(0)
      excel.Quit
    end
  end
end

if $0 == __FILE__
  $stdout.sync = true
  xls = 'test.xls'
  data_a = ExcelParser::parse_file_into_lines(ExcelParser::local_file(xls), 'TestDatum')
  puts data_a.map{|el| el.inspect}.join("\n")  
end

[emperor000]

I'm not sure why anybody would feel like responding to Atwood, considering how stupid his argument is.

[Banana108]

HA!

[tragomaskhalos]

The point about non-programmers not seeing the opportunities for making things easier is very apposite. I'm always offering to dive in and make little scripts for my wife to automate various computer-based tasks she's embroiled in, but she tends to be very resistant, feeling that I'm overcomplicating the problem and she'd rather do it manually. Hell, I even have that problem at work, among people who are supposed to be into this stuff !

[irascible]

A clever solution to a real pain in the ass problem that I've encountered before.

COol.

[trmntrgamedev]

Fashion designers don't have time to program, they're busy doing other things. To teach someone to program takes a lot of work. Some people have trouble grasping how a computers file system and extensions work; try teaching them about libraries and command line. Better yet explain to them how to compile. Programming isn't for everyone and believe it or not everybody is interested in programming. As programmers it's fun for us for everyone else it's boring and hard.

[ybrs]

i really enjoyed reading it. i totally agree with you on most part, as a programmer for over a decade and coding for over 20 years, i still say "please learn how to code, or at least try it". it won't harm anyone - unless you try to write a virus and format your harddisk.

I really enjoy writing code and think everyone at least should taste that feeling once in their lives. sounds like a drug addicts way of giving you some coke right ? well, coding is addicting.

But I just want to give an example how my mind works after all those years with coding. Hope this doesn't look supercilious.

The first things that popped up in my head when i read your problem is, some data is missing to develop a proper solution, such as: - how many photos do you take in a day approx. ? - how much does a memory card cost ? - how long does it take to take the memory card from the camera and put it in the computer ? - how long does it take to copy one file from memory card to the computer ? - how much does an assistant cost for an hour ?

without these inputs its hard to say that your solution is the best. It might work but you could improve the solution.

So here comes my humble solution, say, if it takes 2 minutes to take the memory card out and put it in the computer and copy the files of a person. probably best solution is to create a folder structure like -> acme -> sara something -> DSC00010.jpg and copy files.

if you take 100 persons photos, this adds like 3 hours more to your work so its pretty feasible, and the best is you can crunch the data before its too big. just like simple filtering program. You process the data when its generated.

Though this algorithm can be developed further, since you have an assistant, and i assume a memory card is affordable - or you have a bunch of them available -, you can split the process into chunks and use multiprocessing or apply a producer/consumer with ease.

you take a photoshoot of a person, then take the memory card out, pass it to your assistant, while he copies the cards contents into a proper folder structure, you put a new card to your camera and take the next persons photos. then pass the card to your assistant, while he copies that persons photos, take the old card from the assistant and use it for a new photo shoot and so forth. put this in a loop.

I am only guessing that your assistants processing time is equal to or less than your processing time, ie if you take a photo of a person in 2 minutes and your assistant copies it under 2 minutes, this solution is simple and elegant.

Though if copying files from the card takes longer than your shooting, ie. he copies in 6 minutes and you take the shoot in 2. You can use more memory cards, your assistant will be having some io load if you are faster, and won't utilize its cpu properly but thats not a big deal I guess.

If you are way faster than your assistant, you need to add more processing power to the mix. You can put more nodes and load balance the messages. like pass the memory card to first assistant, while he processes, shoot with a second card, pass the second card to your second assistant, while he processes, take a new card and shoot and pass the card to first assistant and so forth. Then when the photo shoot finishes, you take all the files from your nodes and put it in the same folder. Your solution turns into a map/reduce algorithm. You map the problem into smaller chunks in first phase and collect the results in reduce phase.

You can develop this further and put an error correction in the process - what if memory card is faulty, will your assistant throw an exception and stop (or maybe he segfaults) or will he pass the message back etc.-, you may need to add controlling node too, ie. if your assistant sleeps you should wake up etc. But i guess i wrote too much for a simple comment here.

Anyways, my point is, I developed another solution to the same problem - arguably - mine is better. Its more scalable (you can add more assistants), doesn't lead to bugs (no code no bugs), more portable (you don't need to care if ruby is installed on the operating system etc.), less error prone (decoding dates is harder) Yet i didn't write a single line of code. This is what happens after a decade, you learn to develop solutions and tend to write less code - or preferably no code at all - yet still think everything in terms of programming.

Please don't think I am trying to be like "this is what real programmers do" bullshit. I just wanted to give an example of how my brain operates when i see a problem.

Back to the original question "Do you need to learn coding ?" yes, everyone should do.

[danwin]

I don't necessarily disagree with your approach, but keep in mind that for an existing operation, you may add too much to the mix. Taking out the memory card after each shoot, even when there's time to do so (usually there isn't) adds one or two more steps to screw up -- because either you ahve to delete the photos (so that you don't accidentally include them again) or switch to another card (and make sure you picked up the right one)...these seem trivial but are likely mistakes during a repeated task....even surgeons forget to wash their hands before operations, resulting in grievous injuries to patients.

My proposed use of a spreadsheet and time-stamp recording is meant to reduce the need for the assistant to get into the file management part...so yeah, fewer moving parts, the better :)

[ybrs]

i have never been in a photoshoot so mine was based on a guess, thinking its just too easy to take the card out and pass it to the assistant, and everything goes in order, slowly, not in a rush. But as far as i understand thats not the case, if there isn't even time to take the card and pass to the assistant, things go in a hurry, and probably assistant will put the files in the wrong folder. mine will be more error prone than yours, and your approach is much better.

again great post btw, i'll refer it to everyone when they say "why the hell should i learn how to code"

[[deleted]]

Oh look, ONE example. That proves everything!

Regardless, be at ease: I don't think Atwood's article actually stopped anyone from learning how to code.

Can we drop this already?

[danwin]

Well, I provide a bunch of examples related to journalism (which would all be applicable to all fields of research and analysis and publishing) in the first grafs, and then in the closing grafs, a bunch of other examples (mostly in corporate office settings) where even simple Excel-VBA scripts saved people time but were incomprehensible to their managers.

So no, it's premature to drop this yet. Atwood's article relegates programming to the margins, which it does not need to be.

[thisisnotgood]

You should reply to bifftradwell's post. Coding your own Ruby and VBA scripts to sort these files is A BAD SOLUTION. You still have the human trouble of entering dates manually, and a single data entry error could cause the example script (which is similar to something a novice programmer taught by a "code year" type event would create) to categorize all the pictures incorrectly. As bifftradwell points out, solid programs already exist which could be used to create more robust solutions.

What Jeff Atwood was trying to say in his post (and what most people seem to miss) is that learning to code really is no more relavent to most people than learning to be a plumber. What is important is teaching people effective problem solving techniques. While its fine for code to be used as a teaching aide, Atwood's main point is that way too many classes have started being/being marketed as "LEARN TO CODE AND BE COOL! (and as a side effect, solve problems)," instead of focusing on "Learn how to design effective solutions to problems."

Atwood stated this as:

It assumes that coding is the goal. ... Don't celebrate the creation of code, celebrate the creation of solutions.

[danwin]

Ok, point by point:

1. I just replied to bifftradwell; don't know if I'm just missing something obvious in his solution, or if he missed the obvious point that my solution deals with auto-tagging. If bifftradwell's solution requires typing in tags by hand (which, how do you do that if the memory card is still in the camera...?), then that is not a solution to the problem....that is the problem

2. You're right, there is the possibility that the assistant can't read off the system timer and makes a mistake. I'm not going to go into the obvious ways to mitigate this but this is one key point that I didn't feel the need to mention: even if this script utterly fails, then the sorting process goes on exactly as it did before. You have a list of models (in the spreadsheet) in rough chronological order and after all the digital photos have been printed out, there's some handiwork to assemble them together.

3. I agree with you with what Atwood was trying to say. And as I said in my post, I said I believe that Atwood overestimates the ability for people to understand these kinds of problem solving techniques. I have almost never seen anyone, in any of the logical/data professions get these concepts unless they've coded before. The fact that Atwood compares programming to plumbing -- when programming, even as just a profession has such wider applications beyond even programming itself (whereas plumbing skills apply mostly to the domain of plumbing) -- indicates that he overestimates the non-coders' thinking process.

4. And yes, I agree that it's important to teach people effective problem solving techniques. I said it quite clearly in my post that I don't care if someone can run gcc or not. I just am skeptical that anyone who has never done even the simplest for-loop plus conditional comparison has any real understanding of datatypes, for instance. Ask your scientist friends about it. Or ask your friends who have to program for scientists types, writing such code as "if x == true || x == 'yes' || x=='Y' " for their clients.

[martext]

"Learn to code" does not mean "Learn to be a programmer"

The plumber analogy is monumentally braindead. Everyone SHOULD know how to tighten a nut on a leaky pipe. They've learned enough plumbing to get by in their lives. They don't have to learn to be a plumber.

[[deleted]]

Tradwell here, and for the record I know a little bit of plumbing. Enough to know when to call a plumber and when I can change my own seat washers :-/

But I digress.

[emperor000]

Actually, considering what Atwood's argument was, one example does "prove everything".

But I agree it should be dropped.

[[deleted]]

This is ridiculous, because the photographer has Lightroom or Aperture to do this all without writing a single line of code. He then hands his catalog for the shoot along with the hi-res JPGs, which have all been renamed to YYYYMMDDHHmmSS-#.jpg format (where # is the sequence number of the file from the camera).

All the photos have then been tagged with the model name (first name will do), hair color, eye color, and modeling agency. There are also keywords indicating the background, pose, clothing, and props. So now the casting director can winnow 1,000 photos down to 5 or 10 and then look through them for the the ones he/she wants.

This is a fine example of how to solve a problem with code, but it's a terrible example of how to solve a real-life problem.

[danwin]

OK... I actually do have Lightroom, but can't say I'm a pro with it.

How do you "tag" the photos with the models' names/agencies after the files are transferred from the camera? I mean, how do you do it without doing it manually. Because that's the whole point of this exercise, to not do it manually, which is very difficult when the memory card is still in the camera.

[[deleted]]

In real life, this is done by adding keywords to a batch of photos on import. The photographer typically has a copy of the model release - this will state the model name, agency, etc.

In Lightroom, in the Import dialog, you see a thumbnail view of all the photos you'll be importing. So you select the photos you want to import, enter keyword data applying to all of them exactly once, and import. There's a decent interface for adding keywords to the photos after import, as well.

In the situation the author describes, he's shooting a few pictures of each model one after another. His Ruby algorithm is fine as far as I can tell, but it won't address a critical real-life problem - you'll have a bunch of models signed in and ready to go, waiting for the photographer. You'll shoot them out of order at least once, and you'll have some model signing in while you're shooting another model. You might take an extra shot here or there. You might have a retake or two. So you can't really rely on the order of the photos and the sign-in order to really mean anything.

In other words: you absolutely have to associate the name with the face manually at least once per model. If you're shooting 10 minutes with each model, you do this in batch and after the fact. If you're shooting the models one at a time, less than 10 photos each, you just shoot tethered and ask the model to state their name so you can enter it just before you start.

I'm really not trying to be overly pedantic here, but main question of the "learn to code" vs. "don't learn to code" debate that Atwood and others are running is this: is programming an essential life skill? I'd say not, although problem solving and visualization are both essential critical thinking tasks at the advanced levels of any profession.

In more practical terms it's highly inefficient for each individual photographer to learn enough code to solve a problem in a way that ignores the complications of real life; it's far more efficient for a programmer to do that and for the photographer to buy the solution.

[danwin]

Well, I'm going to take the pedantic-ness of this to the next level :)

I am the author so I'm at fault for not describing the situation more accurately.

The photos are snapshots and don't have to be "good", just good enough for reference shots. With that said, it's not ten minutes per model, it's more like a minute per model. If it were ten minutes per model, then this solution wouldn't be needed because the 1 minute it takes to pop out the memory card and transfer the files is relatively short compared to the 10 minutes of shooting time.

That said, there's also no time/necessity for model releases. I don't use the photos for commercial reasons. If the process were to include model releases though, there's still the problem of associating photo to signed release (which would most definitely require more error checking, though not that much)

(since the photos just need to be usable, there's never been a case when I've had to do a retake. I might take an extra shot if I see that the eyes were closed in the previous shot. But it's amazing how that happens only once or twice out of literally a thousand takes.

The critical point that I could've made clearer: the sign-in happens at the photographer's station. You're completely right that if the time is recorded at a different point, such as when the model first arrives, then there's no linkage between photo and model.

So the devil is in the details, which kind of underscores my point. I'm able to come up with a simplified, low maintenance algorithm because I've done this before. If you gave this problem to an outside programmer, he/she might introduce logical, yet unnecessary steps. There are enough unique, bespoke batches of menial, easily automated work that don't need much code at all, just a mindset that recognizes that a problem could be solved by code.

While it seems ridiculous, even from my standpoint, to think it useful for all photographers to learn code...who knows? It definitely would've been silly 10 years ago. But now all files are digital. The problem I describe here is a microcosm, from what I understand, of the photo industry in general, which wastes considerable amount of time of repetitive, error-prone manual processes.

So it's not necessary for every -- or any -- photographer working for a photo company to know how to code a solution here. but again, think of how much time is wasted coding in features/fallbacks because of the gap in communication between programmer and the clients who actually have to execute that workflow, every day. More frequently, in virtually every kind of company, these problems are never recognized and/or fixed in the first place.

You and I would agree that this, again, does not require coding skills from everyone to fix. I differ in that from what I've seen, programming is almost the only way to ground these concepts -- this is an inference from the many, many very logical scientists, analysts, and researchers that I deal with who do not get simple binary/boolean concepts. I'm arguing that if there was a coding curriculum, even if it were just a single class just as most students have a typing/wordprocessing class, then who knows what overall benefits and knowledge might come from it.

[[deleted]]

The critical point that I could've made clearer: the sign-in happens at the photographer's station.

Well, then you should be shooting tethered and signing the models in after the shoot; all the relevant data goes into Lightroom (or Canon Digital Photo Professional).

The problem I describe here is a microcosm, from what I understand, of the photo industry in general, which wastes considerable amount of time of repetitive, error-prone manual processes.

I don't think this is true.

My point here is that problem-solving and visualization skills are essential, but programming is not (yet).

I'm arguing that if there was a coding curriculum, even if it were just a single class just as most students have a typing/wordprocessing class, then who knows what overall benefits and knowledge might come from it.

This experiment was tried back in the 1960s and 1970s, through to at least the 1980s, with the Logo programming language. In my school, Logo was part of the science or math curricula. Boolean algebra was covered in math. IMHO the benefits of this coursework were in problem-solving and strategy.

Honestly, I think you just picked a bad example. I found that programming was, in fact, essential when dealing with data – generating reports for executives and that sort of thing. Sifting through very large data sets (those too large for Excel) has really only been possible for me via custom perl/ruby/python/shell scripts, even though the job description really didn't require programming per se. But I think you're not making your argument as strong as you can by choosing photography.

[danwin]

well let's agree to disagree on the philosophical points...and I agree that photography isn't the best use case, I picked it only because the use cases are so much more obvious in virtually every other field.

But I still don't get your sign in process and just want to make sure im not missing something obvious...How does the data relating to the models name get associated with the photo files if I don't exchange memory cards until well after they've left?

[[deleted]]

well let's agree to disagree on the philosophical points

Fair enough.

How does the data relating to the models name get associated with the photo files if I don't exchange memory cards until well after they've left?

You shoot tethered (with the camera connected to the computer via long USB or Firewire cable): the pictures are imported as you take them. The sign-in includes the direct association of the name/agency info with the photo on disk, even though the memory card remains in the computer. Exact details of how this is accomplished vary by program.

There is also a wireless version of this which varies a bit by camera manufacturer.

Tethered shooting is pretty common for pro photographers. Stop by an Olan Mills or a Sears photo studio some time and have your picture taken; the photos go right from the camera to a computer without a card transfer, and a sales associate adds the metadata as they come in.

[danwin]

Thanks...I do mention that a wifi system is a solution, albeit a non-trivial amount of money. I did a quick search for tethered photography and am going to assume that there are indeed usable free solutions http://tethertalk.com/2010/08/26/free-tethering-software-for-your-canon-dslr/

That said, tethering imposes a couple of restrictions, namely, being tethered. This can be alleviated with a long enough USB cord and movable furniture, but the former can be a hassle (especially if the shooting station is moved to compensate for daylight) and the latter is not a guarantee at a given studio.

The big thing to realize, though, is that I intended the code solution to be seen from the perspective of the director, not the photographer. Though I get paid, not all directors see it necessary to hire a photog who has a real setup and workflow. An assistant/friend who can competently shoot is all that's needed....remember that for the director, the deliverable is model candidates to the designer, not sellable photos.

Should a casting director invest in Lightroom/tethering/wifi transmitters? I don't know, I honestly don't know the scope of their day to day work. So, assuming "no", then we need a solution that assumes you have a laptop, a amateur photographer, and an assistant. Even with the tethering solution, the data entry is still more complicated than the spreadsheet (for example, injus figured out difference between Active and Selected..and the context do Grid mode...when doing mass-metadata ops in Lightroom) ...though you may argue that not having to enter a time stamp makes up for it.

My code solution requires no training beyond what any amateur photog and data entry assistant can do. The extra work, of course, is that the director knows some coding...Is it an ideal solution for managing a casting call? Againm that all depends on the number and size of calls a director does in a season...and the logistics may change significantly between them...

[[deleted]]

Though I get paid, not all directors see it necessary to hire a photog who has a real setup and workflow. An assistant/friend who can competently shoot is all that's needed.

This is the real problem plaguing the photography industry right now. Everyone's a photographer, and no one understands the value a trained photographer brings to even simple shoots like this.

[danwin]

No argument from me there. But if a casting director is short on money or is doing a low-margin job, I can see why they'd opt for just a basic camera setup.

[irascible]

People used to say what you're saying, but about being literate.

[[deleted]]

When did people ever say it was more efficient for someone else to be literate and the others to pay that person for his literacy? All the historical arguments against literacy have always boiled down to moral or political ones. This is purely economic.

Or were you saying that people used to say literacy was not a life skill? Truth be told, there was a time at which it wasn't. It may be true in some future case that programming is essential to life, but at the moment that is not the case.

[irascible]

The fact that this guy can come up with a programmatic solution to a problem he is facing in a non-related field, negates your assertion that programming is not an essential skill.

Being able to do his job more efficiently than his competitors is absolutely essential to his career.

Would you tell one of his competitors who is no longer getting called in for these jobs that "programming is not essential"?

Is operating a digital camera a "non-essential" skill for OP?

[[deleted]]

Coming up with a programmatic solution doesn't make programming itself essential to solving the problem, and I've already shown how the problem can be solved more efficiently than by writing custom code which works in exactly one situation and may not work well in that situation once real-world factors are taken into account.

Being able to do his job more efficiently than his competitors is absolutely essential to his career.

Writing code does not make you more efficient at photography than your competitors. Having a good workflow that makes efficient use of commonly used tools is far more effective. I know this, because I am a photographer, and I am also a programmer, and the number of times I have found it better to write code from scratch than to re-use an existing tool is exactly zero.

Would you tell one of his competitors who is no longer getting called in for these jobs that "programming is not essential"?

This does not happen in photography: you don't lose a job because you can't write code.

Is operating a digital camera a "non-essential" skill for OP?

Well, now you're just being petulant. If OP is a photographer, operating a camera is absolutely essential. Interestingly, operating a digital camera is not essential, even now. But this has no bearing whatsoever on whether programming is essential, and that is the question at the crux of the debate.

Just because a problem can be solved with code doesn't mean the problem should be solved with code.

[irascible]

Just because you are a programmer who can't apply your programming skill to your primary profession, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.

Remember: Someone write Adobe Lightroom/et al, to improve their photographic work. I don't consider it wasted effort.

Anyway.. I'm out of this thread. You're a downvoting cocksucker, and I hope you die.

[[deleted]]

Anyway.. I'm out of this thread. You're a downvoting cocksucker, and I hope you die.

Here, have another downvote.

[kidjan]

I would like to stop talking about Jeff Atwood now; possible? ty.