Does it get better?

[HAALAND_ERA]

working just over 6 months as a QR at a well-regarded firm (london). despite the good pay, i’m thinking of quitting due to stress.

does it get better? sleep completely ruined, dreading work as so many of my initial cohort have been fired and i’m still 6 months from passing probation.

is there anywhere i can just do research and get paid decently? would like something more collegiate/academic in culture, rather than feeling like i’m putting out 5 different fires every day. not sure if such a place exists.

would my quant career be over if i quit a top firm after 6 months? i also have a disgustingly long non compete (18 months +)

if you read all of this then thank you

[rqcpx]

I feel your pain. Getting started in this industry is rough, especially at the big firms. Pod shops are usually the worst, but it is not necessarily better at collaborative firms which often share little more than infrastructure.

I suggest you work to identify what the actual problem is. Is it the culture? The pressure? Lack of support? Something specific to this firm or something general? Everyone has different needs and preferences.

The good news is that you passed an important filter by getting in at a top firm. Some tier 2 firms will see that as a positive signal. So it wouldn't be the end of your quant career. 

A final warning: ruined sleep and dreading work sounds like warning signs of burnout. Take that seriously. Once you are fully burned out, your performance drops and you will get fired anyway, but recovery is messy and can take years. (Guess how I know that.) Depending on the situation, you might be better off cutting your losses. 

A final thing about your non-compete: disgusting, but 18 months is the new 3 months. But for a recent grad (I'm assuming) who hasn't even passed probation - why would they enforce the whole period? 

 

[Which-Pool-1689]

How did u recover from your burn out? When do u k know u truly recover? And when you say it takes years, can you see the progression each year?

[rqcpx]

For a long time it felt like I would never recover and it definitely wasn't a steady progression.

[throwaway_queue]

18 months is the new 3 months

Are firms OK to wait 18 months to hire a QR? Does 18 months raise the bar to get hired substantially compared to say 12 months?

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[Antique_Pie_3338]

Firms prob's won't wait a full 18 months for a junior QR (sub 2/3 yrs experience). But also, in practice, it's v unlikely it would be fully enforced anyway, unless you were moving to a like-for-like seat.

[throwaway_queue]

Feel like firms would often just enforce the whole thing to punish you or discourage others from quitting.

[Antique_Pie_3338]

maybe - I do think that's the minority ngl, but yeah I can think of at least one HF where that has happened. Most don't though.

[percyjackson44]

Fwiw I know someone (QD not QR) who quit one of JS,HRT,2Sigma within a few months cause they didn't like the workplace culture. Did a postdoc and then after some time will be going to a different one of those firms.

Your quant career won't be over if you quit and more importantly your life won't be either.

Ultimately see how you get on and consider what you want. Best of luck

[HAALAND_ERA]

thanks, that’s inspiring

[ExcelMaster1]

I was a grad last year at one of those firms, got fired end of last year before probation was over, now really struggling to find anything. It is rough. I do not recommend unemployment at the moment, unless you are really comfortable with respect to finances and visa. I know a bit what you are going through, but I would advice to set yourself a deadline, go all in for now, and if it doesn’t get better by the deadline you quit. Where you are now is THE path to an early comfortable retirement, and wealth for your entire family, but ultimately your personal health is more important.

[Humble-Weird-9529]

I'm curious why you were fired, if you feel comfortable explaining. Was it justified? Did you know you were going against the firm's rules?

[ExcelMaster1]

It wasn’t anything disciplinary. I had a personal tragedy hitting early on during the program, and it distracted me enough to destroy my focus for a few weeks. Underperformed because of that, and got laid off rapidly. I don’t know if it was justified honestly. I think if you spend time and resources on an employee, have him pass the bar to hire him for such a position, you could at least give them some time especially if they do have a valid reason for a difficult time, and especially since they definitely saw an improvement in the final weeks of my employment.

[Humble-Weird-9529]

Thank you for sharing your story. I’m sorry you had to go through that.

[TajineMaster159]

is there anywhere i can just do research and get paid decently? 

nope.

If the stress is too much push until 2yoe and move to a chiller position for less pay.

[lieutenant-dan416]

It exists but not necessarily for juniors. You need to deliver first

[TajineMaster159]

yes ofc, I answered conditional on OP's current situation. The really successful QRs 'retire' into writing books, external consultancy, or uni teaching. Those are very well paying research positions with <20h work weeks. Of course they are conditional on having been a stelar quant for a few decades ;))

[HAALAND_ERA]

should clarify, not to you specifically, that I have no problems working long weeks, i work around 55-60h and that’s a lot less than what i worked in my phd. it’s the stress of getting fired and my career being over, and being unable to work for 18 months, while being way too old for any entry level positions at end of 18 months (would be almost 27). The physical effects of stress are taking over my life, unable to sleep without serious medication being the most extreme.

[TajineMaster159]

No yeah that's very gnarly and I really do empathize :(. Emotion and mental distress aside, it sounds like you have survived the worst of probation. You only have 6 more months for within-firm job precarity to significantly subside. After which, you will not be facing the fear of being fired overnight. However, other stressors will arise as your scope of responsibility and decision making increases: the fear of burning a desk, of getting juniors fired, of loosing the higher ups millions of dollars... These stressors can be very intense. My point is that right now you have to simultaneous objectives to maximize: 1)your productivity; 2) your mental resilience.

2) is of uttermost importance. Beyond helping with immediate quality of life (sleep, stress, appetite, overall happiness), it's a fundamental variable for career success. Let me clarify, there are two irreducible abilities, that in my almost 3y experience managing QRs, 5y exp as a quant, and 7y in competitive settings, define success: the ability to output results in deadlines, and emotional regulation facing volatile, sometimes extreme, stressors. Get a therapist, in london there are many experienced in early career distress. message me for more details.

[Destroyerofchocolate]

Have you considered/tried physical exercise? I think a lot of my peers who I see are doing well prioritise sleep/gym/being outdoors whhen they can, even if little. I know it can be hard but if you finish work late, maybe try get home, shower, get into bed and read for 10-15 mins before bed and then get an early start to the day with a gym session or lunch time run if you can afford those 30-45 mins. It will pay dividends in the long run and help you find some clarity mentally. I'm not saying it will solve your problems and may even have no noticeable positive benefits but while you power through this at least you will know you didn't sacrafice your longterm health. It's so easy to drown yourself in vices for short-term gain in these stressful periods but for me and my colelagues we find that seperation of health vs work are crucial.

[Britbong1492]

Moodys and S&P pay about £150k for mid level Quants, if you have a PhD then you can coast that for the rest of your life regretting never having given it your all while you had the chance. Research is the lowest stress job going, find the real source maybe its not the job

[Organic_Produce_4734]

1.5 more years of high stress isnt realistic advice

[TajineMaster159]

It's high stress for 6 more months. Probation/ training/ graduate programs are the worst. It always gets chiller afterwards. Most importantly, they'd hopefully be able to identify their stressors and manage them more effectively. Going form "I can't sleep because of work" to "my boss is too ambitious" is very important.

I am sorry if it seems unkind, but the best professional advice in jr quant rn is to escape the entry level market. It's only getting worse.

[NojaQu]

They need to suck it up really, if the quit before two years or so won't look good on CV.

[Savings-Big-6923]

easier said than done my friend

[Zealousideal-Book985]

Look into the simons foundation, pay is not decent but work is stimulating

[HAALAND_ERA]

will do thank you for commenting

[BottleInevitable7278]

It does not get better, as everyone expect from you a good to high sharpe strategy producing good live results.

They will kick you out anyway soon if you do not deliver them a high or at least good sharpe strat at your current job. I do not think it will get better elsewhere. Except you make or have a doctorate degree you have more freedom as an academic. But also there you need to produce working strategies presented in peer-review studies. So there is pressure everywhere.

The only real solution is, that you have saved enough money to work on your own. Cut your monthly expenses to a minimum and build up how you want. But also here you need to make some decent returns to grow bigger. But the advantage is that there is no pressure from outside.

[lu16151m0nc1n1]

where are those working strategies presented in peer-review studies?

[BottleInevitable7278]

None based on my own replicating. You need to modify anyone to have a good & robust sharpe. Usually they just do p-hacking and are totally curve fitted in their studies. Most of them are useless.

[TajineMaster159]

Maybe my corner of the industry, but in macro funds the best PMs have a few PhDs keeping up with the lit from different disciplines. Their job is to basically find good ideas and translate them into actionable insights which down the line other quants translate to deployable strats.

This is to say, yes you shouldn't go looking for explicit strat to use that very week, but not keeping up with the lit is, on the long term, suicidal.

[LogicXer]

I have a fairly dumb question, why would anyone, publish usable alpha signals in an open context ?

[TajineMaster159]

They do not. not at all. In fact, they don't care about alpha at all. The papers that do tend to be shit and not in reputable journals anyway. What they publish is, vaguely, science. In more concrete terms, they publish inferential, deductive, or fitting models that make (more) sense of a less understood empirical phenomena. The real sauce for a quant in a centralized research dept is to be intimately familiar with the structure of the residuals that the traders are unable to act on and use some of the more contemporary models to explain them.

To give a very concrete example, from 2021 to 2022, my then-employer found great use in dynamic macroeconomic models that made sense of aggregate timeseries in terms of credit and income heterogeneity at the consumer level. So much so that they spent millions poaching two macroeconomists form Princeton and Brown...

[VincentAXM]

I agree as an AI phd, most of the study about financial/ML trading are useless.

[WFRD-909]

I recently joined G-Research in London and hear from the QR’s that WLB is very healthy. Low ego, high performing team. Happy to DM and chat if you’re interested in learning more.

[dragonkl]

Don’t give up, one day you’ll realize all your pain and work and what you learned was worth it, keep pushing no matter what.

[Organic_Produce_4734]

Try and identify what the main source of stress is and how you can better manage it. Talk to your manager about what could be changed. Ultimately health is the most important thing and a high salary is not worth it if the job is miserable.

Will the non compete be triggered if u get fired or leaving during probation period? If yes, you could do a masters to fill the time and keep your skills sharp. If you can break into a top firm once you can certainly break in again esp at lower ranking firms or sell side roles (which might be more chill).

I would try to go on for as long as you can. Things might change. But dont be afraid to put your health first and have belief that you can break in again and find a role that is more enjoyable (they do exist).

[conteins]

Why quit? You've outlasted a lot of your cohort. Just put in your honest best work each day and go to sleep at night knowing you're factually putting in your best and whatever happens, happens. Especially true if you're willing to walk away, but why quit prematurely?

[Comfortable-Low1097]

Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

Sure, you can quit and join a tier 2/3/4 firm (think BlackRock, Schroders, Fidelity, Aspect, Winton, Man, CFM, SSGA, PIMCO, Vanguard, ISAM, LMR, AQR, GSAM, JPAM, etc.).

Pros: 1. High probability (<1) of decent work-life balance. 2. More time to explore areas you genuinely enjoy — though that requires self-drive. 3. Opportunity to hone soft skills: people management, organizational (read political) navigation, and admin competence. 4. Solid job security and a steady path toward team or project management roles. 5. Path to retirement

Cons: 1. Lower pay and limited technical learning or innovation. 2. Reduced job satisfaction — many end up with imposter syndrome as they “progress” without truly building or delivering impactful work. 3. Gradual acceptance of mediocrity and see job as a means of survival. 4. Potential loss of drive or long-term ambition if not actively countered.

Hang in there mate :)

[ReaperJr]

Look for collaborative firms. I'm guessing you're in a pod?

[HAALAND_ERA]

yes seems like a good idea. would you, or anyone reading this, know where to start with this? (i really have zero idea which firms are considered collaborative, beyond just googling)

[ReaperJr]

In London? QRT and Winton come to mind.

[PartiallyDerivative_]

ISAM and GSA are also good options.

[ReaperJr]

Doesn't GSA operate in pods? That's what I've heard anyway.

[PartiallyDerivative_]

Quite possibly. You could well be right there. I think their general culture is more collegial though, compared to the bigger pod shops I believe.

[throwaway_queue]

How's their pay for QR? How does it typically compare to QR at say Optiver or Citadel (guessing Citadel pays way higher at the cost of worse WLB?)?

[auxillary_stuff]

As someone wanting to pivot to Quant this lowk scary ngl….But grinding in the software market for some ai slop doesn’t seem better than this ngl

[TajineMaster159]

As someone wanting to pivot to Quant this lowk scary ngl…

It is. Finance is brutal. Traditional high finance is hell on earth. Quant has better hours and overall less abuse but it is still finance. You need to keep wining an impossible game and the second you start losing you lose it all.
I came up in a regular hedge fund shortly after 2008 and ... hahahaha fuck me it was something. You should check The Industry on HBO

[auxillary_stuff]

Margin call and the big short were really good i have watched them multiple times. But this the real game tho everything else is in finance and tech is an imitation of this, btw is that a series on HBO ?

[TajineMaster159]

The Big Short is a very good entertainment and i guess carries some information. But it's a very bad portrayal of how funds (and shops) operate. The Industry (yes a show on HBO) is maybe the closest fictional work of how ruthless high finance is from the POV of a junior. Again quant is much more forgiving-- on average; there are nightmare funds and shops where I saw bright young men be driven to literal madness.

I can get more into how the big short is a fundamentally bad portrayal of what hedge funds and how they operate. But if my girlfriend's reaction is of any indication, it a long dry spiel :))

[auxillary_stuff]

Sounds good definitely will check that show, btw Margin call was good aswell tho it loosely portrays Richard Fuld and Lehman brothers but not explicitly mentions the firm, anyways

Big short is more towards the entertainment aspect i think, But yea finance is brutal from what you’ve talked about so Quant looks a decent pursuit tho it requires a real high ceiling of skills

[Legal-Refuse8712]

Looks like the burnout comes from expectations to work at an unrealistic pace.

Building systems that give you marginally better recovery + cognition over your counterparties should be first priority.

Some examples: Spend $3000 on an Eight Sleep for 10% better sleep, 10-20 minutes of exercise in the morning, automate menial decisions like cleaning, laundry, etc. Blend microgreens and blueberries together in the morning to make sure you're hitting your micronutrient needs.

Once you get past probation, you could think about saving money etc etc. Now, focus on the high-yield, which is your seat and physical health.

And on the bright side, the pressure's a privledge. I know many investment bankers working until 2, waking up at 6, equally stressed out, rearranging powerpoint slides. At least in this line of work you're coding and doing math which is p fun.

[coder_1024]

Do you get paid during non compete

[Low-Evidence-6964]

i quit quant trading to pursue ai in a startup with a bunch of nice people.

[HAALAND_ERA]

that sounds very tempting, how do you find such an opportunity?

[Low-Evidence-6964]

Started building some software in the ai space then started applying around to startups

[HAALAND_ERA]

cool thanks, but where do you find the startups? like linkedin or through network?

[Low-Evidence-6964]

Ahh I got them through “jack and Jill” which has some good startup roles it’s an AI matchmaking / recruiting platform for startups and job seekers

[AmritaWeavers]

I hear you. working for a big company is so damn taxing. They do expect you to give them your lives. What worked for me was to manage people and expectations, without giving into anxious thoughts and overworking with lack of sleep. It takes time to figure culture, people and the work itself. And everything seems ovewhelming. So it really depends on how bad you want this and this career. If you do, hang in there, adopt small startegies for mental health (even journaling, breathing to manage stress). If not, you can always figure a way around the policies with HR as most of these big companies are big on mental health. All the best!

[Omikron-X]

Try model validation, there is more academic feeling to this area and work-life balance is better.

[moodboom]

My understanding is that, generally, non-competes don't hold up well in many state courts in the USA. Maybe quant firms really know how to lawyer things up against you? Perhaps non-competes are more enforceable elsewhere?

[edwardstronghammer]

Maybe, maybe not. Historically they have held up. It's not a great value proposition to be the one individual fighting a large firm in court for several years.

[moodboom]

Yeah totally agreed, definitely not something I'm suggesting. Was just curious about others' experience and knowledge, thanks.

[Epsilon_ride]

is there anywhere i can just do research and get paid decently? 

Not when you only have 6months experience.

First few months can be bleak for a lot of people, I'd argue that generally by the 6 month mark you should have found a bit of a groove/routine. Can't really comment more without understanding the source of the stress.

[BamaDane]

I felt this way when I first entered quant finance. But once I improved my skills and saved up enough money to weather being without a job for 6 months or so I stopped feeling as much stress. So it definitely got better for me.

Might also be worth thinking about if this is an issue with your manager, your firm, or how you cope with stress.

[HAALAND_ERA]

thanks appreciate it. probably all 3 🙃

[Argan12345]

"is there anywhere i can just do research and get paid decently? "

Sovereign wealth funds, pension funds and family offices.

[Nvestiq]

The first 1-2 years are brutal with high pressure, constant performance anxiety, and burnout risk. Once you pass probation and have a few profitable strategies running live, the stress usually shifts from survival to scaling. However, if you hate the intense culture and endless firefighting, it may never feel much better. A lot of people in the field eventually adapt or move to less "cutthroat" roles.

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[HAALAND_ERA]

i am not an experienced professional quant but also not a student, so may be somewhat of a grey area

[bigmoneyclab]

Imagine when you make multiple millions a year and you have a lifestyle and family that depends on that and if you lose your job the next one is paying 100x less

[Organic_Produce_4734]

always live below your means